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[suggestion] Make Barrier shield twice as Strong for half the duration

redfeenix··67 votes·3,695 views
Barrier

Barrier currently gives X amount of shields for two seconds, and this spell certainly has its uses, compared to heal.

However to further differentiate this spell from heal at a strategic level, I propose we double the shield but halve the duration.

Therefore it will provide a HUGE shield for only one second. This will make using barrier much better if you can time it properly.

You would choose barrier if you're gonna suddenly take a lot of burst dmg (counter assassins). However to outplay this , the enemy just needs to wait for a sec and then continue their dmg.

What do you guys think? I think this will provide barrier a cool niche and differtiate it from heal on a strategic level, allowing both spells to flourish depending on the needs of the user.

I don't think this makes barrier too OP, but can reward skilled players by potentially mitigating a lot of dmg (good to counter burst assassins or tower dives)

What do you guys think? Is this a good change for barrier or is it too OP in the hands of skilled players? Is there another change that's even better?

EDIT: I used "double" for a super clickbait title. I'm not experienced in balancing, I"m not sure what the right numbers are. I just meant in general, as a concept, Barrier should have higher shields for a shorter duration to make it more niche and useful in different situations than heal (ie take barrier vs cait or jinx, but heal for extended trades etc).

Just think about this idea as a general concept for barrier, rather than specific numbers.

100 Comments

Wolfram Oxford17 votes

I don't like this idea. I feel like it would give too much power to barrier and make any champion with long cd burst unplayable. Also mages who have DPS or low cd burst would be so strong.

redfeenix7 votes

I was thinking about which champions would be countered the hardest and zed and karthus come to mind. Basically any champion that has a fixed countdown on when their dmg hits.

But besides those I feel like other assassins can just bait the barrier out, wait a second and then unload their burst.

I feel like it's a fair / balanced spell, and you have to bait out barrier just like you would a flash

morris14 votes

I'm skeptical about a 910 health shield, no matter how short it is, you shouldn't change what's balanced just for the sake of it. Once an assassin all ins someone, he can't just wait a second. That's enough even for an ADC to deal considerable damage to the assassin in the worst case. Also I'm not sure I understood your last sentence.

redfeenix10 votes

What you mean I don't think barrier is balanced it's overshadowed by heal. That's why I'm suggesting this idea. It's a drastic change but I don't think it's too OP.

Consider flash it's a get out of jail free card. Barrier can be the same.

Realistically speaking hoe much damage will you actually take in a second. Keeping in mind the enemy can see the barrier animation and should know to hold their damage.

And sorry the last sentence was automatically corrected. I meant to say, skilled assassins could bait the targets summoner spells, and then kill them ehile those spells are on cooldown

Just like we blow a flash and back off, then come back for the kill? Same way assassins could outplay barrier.

Do you really think it's that OP? It's only 1 second. I think other spells are still better ie smite exhaust and flash. Those spells are way stronger than the proposed barrier

morris13 votes

To respond to you - yes. The entire game is balanced around flash. It's the reason immobile champions aren't trash, it's the reason why disruptors like Annie have no natural mobility. They'd have to compensate by buffing assassins by a huge amount -- clearly you don't understand that most assassins use their entire kits in 1 second or so. They would have to change the whole game around this, not exagerating.

NineTailedMystic1 votes

This barrier would be garbage against assassins other than Zed. Talon would go in, you use your barrier, he waits literally one second and then just insta bursts you.

WoonStruck3 votes

Meanwhile you can delete him off the map during that time. Its equivalent to a 1 second stun if he's going to be sitting there twiddling his thumbs.

A stronger, but shorter barrier would in no way be garbage against assassins not named Zed.

Galihan9 votes

Riot's plan for the assassin rework update is to extend the burst window for more counterplay, so that would go nicely with this theoretical change to barrier since people might panic and use their barrier too soon.

redfeenix5 votes

Right , it becomes a battle of skill, rather than a battle of stats.

LA Losty4 votes

Maybe the shield shouldnt be twice as strong, but 1.5 times as strong and still only last half the duration?

redfeenix6 votes

Oh were we talking about the specific numbers, rather than the concept?? Sorry I misread the post.

Then yes by all means balance it however you like. I just meant in general, barrier would be more niche and clutch if it gave more sheilds for a lesser duration. Whether that shield amount is 10 or 100 or 1k, Idk. I'm not a rito balancer :)

LA Losty1 votes

Yeah i think it would be an interesting idea, but as Wolfram pointed out it could potentially deny all assassins completely, and that would not be fun to play against. It would be nice for barrier to stand out from heal because currently there isnt a big difference between them. This would make it more significant.

redfeenix1 votes

Yes thats exactly why I made this post. I remember before, barrier used to be the meta. Then it got nerfed and heal became meta. this suggestion would hopefully make BOTH spells viable. Currently 1 is way better than the other.

I hope that the shield amount can be balanced so its not OP and doesnt shut down assassins completely, but it is still viable and satisfying to use in some situations. Why I think that yes, choosing barrier could help defend yourself vs burst, I think thats the goal of the summoner. Just like you can escape death by flashing away, perhaps you can also avoid death by casting barrier.

Just my thoughts, think it would be more satisfying as a summoner, and hopefully its balanced so its not OP

Aptest2 votes

Atm the purpose of barrier is to deny burst. For general purpose fighting and damage mitigation heal is currently superior. therefore to be picked it has to be strong enough to deny assassins and burst mages like annie and syndra.

or barrier can have some other effect. but right now it is a pure defensive summoner spell for a squishy to take so it has to have the impact of preventing the squishy from getting assassinated.

9001Teemos3 votes

This is a great idea. It's a strategic pick against burst when you're confident you can time it right and when the heal and speed burst from heal won't be enough. I think this would move barrier to a more fitting position for it's purpose and identity as a protective spell.

Poske3 votes

Thats actually a great idea +1

Comparable to riven shield its huge but doesnt last long and it not spammable

redfeenix1 votes

I actually liked that change when done to riven, I think it would be satisfying to both teams if barrier got the same treatment

NineTailedMystic1 votes

I would rather it be a stronger, but decaying shield as a counter to ignite. Riven's is okay because it's spammable, this version of Barrier is still tied to a long CD.

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

Barrier is still the shortest cd ss iirc (I know it is quite a bit shorter than heal).

The Yetii Rider2 votes

Barrier shouldn't give a large shield for a few seconds. It should give a small shield but a % armor and MR amp. That way it can be used by tanks and bruiser who initiate, going in and absorbing the brunt of burst with ease.

Since TP got nerfed, top lane tanks haven't really had a summoner they want to use (not that tanks should go top to begin with, but hey it's a free country I guess).

So, let's give Barrier to initiators. That way, even if they're behind they can still do their job every two minutes or so.

Mid lane mages against assassins have Exhaust.

redfeenix1 votes

Hmm I think we can give bruisers a better spell than a shield. I think something like a shield should be given to squishies to allow them to survive.

Bruisers could have better options IMO. How about a summoner "Hardened Shield": Reduce incomming damage by 50% for 2 seconds.

Totally didnt copy that from heroes www.heroesfire.com/hots/wiki/abilities/hardened-shield

Its such a great spell that allows me to tank like a boss for a short time. Really good when I see multiple enemy ultimates incomming. Or when I'm engaging under their tower. Its only for 2 seconds so its not that bad, And getting that extra tankiniess for the brief time is really aweseome and often allows me to live with 10hp.

Idk how its gonna be in league though.

NineTailedMystic1 votes

That totally wouldn't be abused by squishies, no sir.

redfeenix1 votes

Do you think squishies would use this spell (take 50% less damage for 1 second) rather than the shields?

If thats the case, perhaps barrier SHOULD be changed to damage mitigation instead of a shield.

NineTailedMystic1 votes

50% DR is over half an Alistar ult. Of course it would be taken by squishies and not tanks.

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

A %DR would have more impact on a squishy (higher "damage" reduction such as an 800 crit going to 400 as opposed to 400 to 200) however you will most likely still die since the DR would PROBABLY go after all of your armor gets penetrated by most mages or the Ghost+Duskblade.

I do agree it would still be too hard to balance and that a decaying %buff to armor/mr or a shield based on health (such as steraks) would be better option for tankier champions, but before we make tanks any tankier it would be wise to give more options outside of LW/VS/Liandry's/BoRK to deal with the 3.6k health Tahm Kench.

Eeyore2 votes

At the moment both Heal and Barrier are predominantly used selfishly, which is a problem in my opinion. Buffing Barrier would not change this. Instead, I would rather change one of their use-cases to make one a true support spell (or, even, a tank spell). Since I actually think Heal has good gameplay (even if it's only used on Marksman, at the moment), I would thus prefer to rework Barrier into a utility spell.

My first idea would be to make Barrier raise a dome that protect all allies within, like Winston from Overwatch. Another idea would be to create a zone that shields allies within (similar to Locket), but only while they remain inside the zone (and then perhaps have an effect when the zone ends, such as a haste).

  • Barrier - ACTIVE: You drop a shielding device down that projects a bubble, intercepting all incoming damage to iself. The device has 80-400 health. The device could scale with the spell-users armor and MR, to make it less squishy late game.
  • Fortify - ACTIVE: You raise a perimeter that shields all allies within the zone, while they remain inside the zone. After 3 seconds, all allies within the area are hasted for 2 second.

Heal should then be made a stronger selfish spell, such as having the heal restore a percentage of your missing health, but no longer heal an ally. At the moment Heal is only really used by Marksmen to haste themselves when chasing or fleeing; and there's a current lack of defensive spells (with most tanks just taking Exhaust or Teleport, due to a lack of interesting options). Reinforcing Heal as the selfish spell and introducing Barrier as an actual defensive spell... interesting?

(EDIT: Made more clear what I meant by "raise a dome".)

redfeenix3 votes

ake Barrier raise a dome that shields all allies within,

item 3190 ?

make Heal restore a percentage of your missing health plus the haste, but no longer heal an ally

I agree its giving Heal too much benefit for the ADC compared to other positions. Its rewarding being near allies too much, and devalues solo play.

Great post, take my upvote

Eeyore1 votes

Not at all like Locket, although I wish Locket would behave how I propose Barrier to work.

No, I mean like Winston in Overwatch, at least with regards to the dome idea.

redfeenix1 votes

Ah the edit helped. These are wonderful suggestions thanks for contributing ! However I honestly feel these effects would be better suited towards defensive items in the same vein of locket. Supports should activate their items late game to provide these cool aoe effects rather than it be attached to sumz which are honestly solo only

Eeyore1 votes

While item effects are also good, I think there is room to explore Tank / Support summoner spells that are specifically intended to be used protectively. Maybe Barrier is not the space to explore, but... still.

redfeenix1 votes

Perhaps a new summoner spell:

"Hardened Resolve: Take 50% reduced damage for 3 seconds. Lose 10% movement speed

TeCoolMage1 votes

I think barrier should be changed to be simply % damage reduction.

Like, you know your matchup will suck so you're going to build some tank items, then you take barrier

Or you're a tank who decides to give up tp pressure early to just be unstoppable late game (except by cc :P)

Rintam1 votes

That is what Exhaust does...

TeCoolMage1 votes

No it's not...

Rintam1 votes

Exhaust reduces the damage an enemy champion does. That would be a reverse exhaust.

TeCoolMage1 votes

That's pretty much the only similarity. They don't fulfill the same role, target and affect the same champions, or even have the same effects except for 'reduce damage'.

redfeenix1 votes

I was considering this but I think barrier makes sense thematically if it gave some Shields.

There is a spell in heroes that provides dmg mitigation at max lvl. Realistically though is dmg mitigation for one second worth more than a burst of shields? Not sure lol

TeCoolMage1 votes

It can be some sort of absurd amount like 50-80% damage reduction in 1 second.

(even true damage)

warmcorntortilla1 votes

Well, an assassin's burst actually comes from multiple sources, not just their ult, especially early game, so I think it actually takes longer to kill a target than you might think. Level 6, Zed and Leblanc and Fizz are going to need a few conditions to kill you. 1.) You're gonna have to be below 100% HP. I'm not really sure what their individual burst is (since I don't really play assassins), but I know most champions can't lvl 6 100-0 you. So you can already be countering these champs with careful resource management. 2.) They're gonna have to be not-almost-dead. If they are almost dead, then they can easily get cc'd and burst under tower, or punished hard and left unable to finish the trade. (Unless your name is Fizz. Then idk.) 3.) They're probably gonna have to use their entire rotation, along with a few auto attacks, to finish you off completely. You running back to tower with 5 HP is worthless to a gold-dependent assassin.

So to me, barrier is actually much better if it lasts longer, with a weaker shield. Late game, your whole team can work together to stop assassins. A focused Zed and warded jungle make it very hard for him to do his job. Hell, I personally think exhaust is better for surviving assassins late game. (But I am just a silver scrub, so take my opinions with a grain of salt.)

Most of the time, I use barrier before my first back, to survive an ignite tick. So personally, I think I'd rather have the shield be a biiit weaker and last a bit longer, to give me time to strategically work around it.

redfeenix2 votes

Interesting so you'd rather barrier be akin to an hp pot, providing low amounts of hp but at a longer duration , rather than a straight up front shield

SnazzyTheMister1 votes

considering barriers low pick rate it makes sense to look into a way of increasing its power in the niche of surviving single target burst. i think 50% more shield for only 1 second would be interesting to try. its important that it doesn't become overbearing with its low cooldown or through any item synergies.

a summoner spell with % damage reduction seems scary as it could become appealing to tanks/durable champs making things like tower dives easier.

redfeenix1 votes

Yeh that's why I wasn't hesitant to have this damage reduction. That being said if it was a new summoner spell, perhaps it might be cool to try using damage reduction on both squishes and tanks

SnazzyTheMister1 votes

{quoted}

Yeh that's why I wasn't hesitant to have this damage reduction. That being said if it was a new summoner spell, perhaps it might be cool to try using damage reduction on both squishes and tanks

i don't think a summoner spell for tanks would be an awful thing, but i think trying to balance a spell so it is useful but not broken to both the tank and squishy roles seems like it would be hard to accomplish.

i would like to see barrier pushed as a way for squishies to handle assassins, but ideally in a way that doesn't over shadow other spell choices and still gives assassins uptime to kill the squishies. it seems like a spell that is worth looking into with this assassin update on the horizon because the update might change what barrier needs to be most useful.

Lt Streko1 votes

Honestly, I think barrier is a very underrated spell as it is. I take it all the time mid, and honestly it's a great baiting tool. I've gotten so many kills with people trying to all in me into tower, and I just pop it. I don't feel it needs any huge changes/buffs as it is. Maybe some touching up, but nothing too drastic.

redfeenix1 votes

This change would nerf barrier for your purpose, unless you can time it well. Current barrier is 2 seconds of shields, which might be multiple spells. However with the new barrier, you have to time it really well not just activate it and hope you live.

Idk I think this is a net even change, as it makes barrier stronger in some situations, but weaker in others.

All it does is create some situations or matchups where barrier is more valuable than heal, and vice versa.

Lt Streko1 votes

I mean, this change would actually buff barrier for my purpose, because now I can bait under tower with even lower health so long as my timing is good. Not to mention, this buffed barrier would completely destroy several champions with high burst, and no longer make them viable without changes to their kit. Is Lux about to hit you with her ult? Barrier. Karthus ult about to kill you? Barrier. Zed's ult about to pop? Barrier. Darius/Garen execute? Barrier. The list goes on. Barrier would become insanely strong, and as a barrier user, I'd be happy with that in a way, but it'd become very unhealthy and a huge get out of jail free card. More so then it already secretly is.

Not to mention Barrier is still preferable to heal in several situations and matchups. As grievous wounds doesn't reduce the barrier you receive. Which is important because most mid laners will take ignite/build item 3165

SanKakU1 votes

[deleted]

redfeenix1 votes

Cleanse is only useful against cc. Imaginr a rengar bulging and jumping on you. He unloads his burst real quick. Do I would try to barrier his most dmg g skills.

Cleanse won't be useful unless I get rooted, and even at that point I think barrier would come in handy since you essentially avoid all his damage even ehile rooted, compared to cleansing and running a few steps but rating his damage.

While cleanse is good C's cc, barrier is good C's raw burst damage. Both are good in the correct situation

SanKakU1 votes

[deleted]

redfeenix1 votes

However, I have proposed time and time again that we could use more augments to our summoner spells through the items. Why stop at augmenting Smite?

Very interesting didnt even think about this.

This would be an awesome idea to explore. Summoner spell specific items.

Ie Smite can only buy jungler items TP can buy these items etc.

Very interesting idea!

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