[opinion] Why restrict SOLO Q to diamond+? Lower elo players want Solo q too!

redfeenix·Aug 24, 2016·201 votes·7,512 views

Edit: Ayyyyy we did it good job everyone

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/9pyxo3V9-instead-of-hearing-we-were-right-id-prefer-to-hear-we-wont-be-disregarded-next-time?comment=001d00000000

Like I get their reasoning. Solo q is the best way to determine skill accurately. And they want diamonds+ to have solo q for more competitive matches.

But i'm sure ALL PLAYERS in ALL ELOS would appreciate more competitive games. If solo q is really that important for competitive integrity, why not give it to us plebs too? I would LOVE solo Q even if I'm not Diamond.

This is a great incentive to get to Diamond next year actually. I can finally play SOLO Q again? Hell fkn yeah I'm gonna spamm rank and hopefully one day I can enjoy SOLO Q again. You know the SOLO Q thats existed since the start of League, and considered the Lifeblood of the game?

Sigh very dissapointed that Solo Q is not comming back this year either. I think thats really messed up man.... This reminds me of when runescape removed trading/PVP to combat bots or something. Please dont ruin core aspects of your game which the players love (ie SOLO Q).... not all change is good Riot.

What do you guys think about Riot's ranked post? Do you think lower elos deserve solo q? Or should we just stick with DQ and only reward the top % of the playerbase with fair matches.

Please post your thoughts below.

231 Comments

UberAffeAug 24, 201622 votes

I don't think it makes a difference before diamond. Players flat out just do not coordinate well enough pre-diamond for dynamic q to be a real problem.

you will get just as many pre-mades who carry you as pull you down
if you are matched with a pre-made you are almost guaranteed to be facing one At the end of it all if you deserve a higher rank you will still get there.

(before you call me boosted, I play primarily solo and duo. Occasionally i play with more because its nice to KNOW that my team won't flame me)

redfeenixAug 24, 201648 votes

I'm sure there are players in lower elos than diamond that would also like to play solo.

Its not about the rank, its about the playstyle. People dont like being forced to go vs premades when they're alone. It doesnt feel fair, eh ?

UberAffeAug 24, 20165 votes

Honestly I don't think so. The few times I can actually tell that i am facing a pre-made it just makes me try that much harder because it is so much more satisfying to win.

redfeenixAug 24, 201620 votes

Maybe Riot should actually show who the premades are on the loading screen. That would help me know if I'm vs a team of 5 or If the premade jungler will camp me.

How do you know if you're vs premades (club tags I assume?)

Locke DaemonfireAug 24, 20166 votes

Generally, you can tell best by looking at op.gg during the loading screen or after the match. Just open your opponents' profiles and look at the recently played with list, match it to the other opponents. Of course, only do so if you feel you can make use of the information and it won't just be possibly tilting.

redfeenixAug 24, 20165 votes

I think ghost crawler mentioned he was looking into indicating all premades (allies and enemies) on the loading screen.

In the mean time I'll use op.gg it's better than nothing. Thanks for the tip

ElikainAug 25, 20161 votes

How do you know anyone will camp you? It shouldn't matter if someone is premade or not for you to be able to take a certain action. The point is to recognize it. If the only way of recognizing what you need to do is to tell you who is premade and who is not, just so that you can point a finger at a possible strategy they will attempt to do or worse, point a finger on who to blame for a loss, this isn't something that it should be added if it's going to be used in such a way.

GayFluffyUnicornAug 25, 20162 votes

That's the only strategy "premades" are able to pull off. Rank as solo laner and jungler, camp the shit out. This works up until low plat. Then they notice that other junglers take advantage of it. Solo junglers are much more ACTUALLY team orientated than premades that's something i experienced in over 800 games especially this season.

redfeenixAug 25, 20162 votes

I agree, it's an interesting observation but true.

Premades will only have good teamwork among themselves but solo players try to be good teammates to everyone.

I love those random solo q games where you have more synergy with a random team than with any premade

High5Aug 25, 20162 votes

Same reason they stopped showing ribbons and mastery. Playing with 4 people who picked first time champs vs a team of rank 5 mastery opponents didn't inspire a lot of confidence.

The irony is that websites and addons give you that info anyway.

When you actually see how messed up match making is, you'll quit too. 1 fun game out of 5 isn't woth it whether you feed or stomp.

EndlessSorcererAug 25, 201612 votes

I don't really care about playing with/against a premade team. In my opinion, that is the lesser issue with Dynamic Queue.

I want the rank difference within games to shrink.

A ranked game should not have players from 10 divisions in the same game just because two of them are premade together; it just leads to very uneven lane matchups for both teams and turns them into stomps for one side or the other.

redfeenixAug 25, 20163 votes

Hmm this is a good point, can we think of any possible solutions to this? I get what you mean like the skill difference is HUUUUGE sometimes in the same game (ie you would think its a bronze vs diamond mid instead of plat lvl players).

Anything suggestions for things we can do to help with this aspect?

EndlessSorcererAug 25, 20163 votes

Honestly, Riot already did it for Diamond+ so we don't really need a unique solution.

We just need tighter role restrictions for premade groups.

Currently, you can have a Gold V and a Platinum 1 player queue together on the same team. I'd be much happier if it was restricted to (at the very most) 5 divisions between all players in a premade group (though I'd be happier with a 3 division limit).

DukuesAug 25, 20165 votes

{quoted}

Honestly, Riot already did it for Diamond+ so we don't really need a unique solution.

We just need tighter role restrictions for premade groups.

Currently, you can have a Gold V and a Platinum 1 player queue together on the same team. I'd be much happier if it was restricted to (at the very most) 5 divisions between all players in a premade group (though I'd be happier with a 3 division limit).

this I think its the biggest problem especially once you hit gold or plat. I look up ranks before my ranked games and every other game has a huge variance. I hate blaming one person but played a ranked game the other day where I had a gold 2 teammate queue with a silver 5 player on my team. Everyone else on the other team was gold as were we besides or silver 5 jungle. I usually just look at everyone as the same but... honestly this silver 5 dude just got wrecked. We could have done better as a team but our jungler was like 3-9 and the enemy jungle had double his farm. It was such a huge disadvantage. I was also mad because I had double the enemy adc farm in a 25 min game :(. Enemy adc literally had like 103 cs in over 20 mins with only 2 kills and still got a win. How the hell man :(.

redfeenixAug 25, 20163 votes

Dat matchmaking system doe

DukuesAug 25, 20164 votes

I like you. Don't change.

ElikainAug 25, 20161 votes

Riot may tighten the division reaches between premade players or limit the division/tier reach to the player who invites others.

It would go like this. You have 4 people that would like to play. They are respectively from G1-G4. I believe that under this system, you can invite all 4 players under the same premade. With the new tighter restrictions (Same tier only, +1/-1 division max) and limited to first player who invites:

G3 player wants to make a premade. He can invite only G2,3,4 players. He invites a G2 and G4 person. He then extends the invites to them as he has no more people to invite. Both players (G2 and G4) can invite only players who are G2,3 and 4 because they are bound by the same invite rules from the first person. They cannot respectively invite a G5 or G1 players in the same party.

So the proper 4 man premade is now made out of G2,3,4,3. The average group ELO would be G3 and one solo player from G2-4 (same restrictions as invites) may be put into the group to complete a team.

If there are 3 people in a premade, it's G2,3,4, That's still G3 ELO. 2 people who fall into G2-4 may be randomed to complete a team. You get the idea.

However, i do see this as a potential problem as it can be way too restrictive. Lower ELOs don't have much difference between divisions whereas high ELOs do.

NiraBladeAug 26, 20163 votes

an additional problem of letting premades going in ranked together is that one can just use a smurf to rank together with his friend and carry him - and he can avoid even the actual restriction, for example with his main he's diamond and with the smurf he's silver and "carry" his friend to gold easily.

Imho premades should be avoided completely in a SoloQ so that the matchmaking can work properly to find a fair matchup and bring back some nice competition again.

ElikainAug 26, 20161 votes

Well, i do understand what you're saying but i also don't think a ranked ladder is meant to be forever solo. I believe that Riot has learned their lesion from this season and is moving in the right direction for S7. Basically, the higher you go the more solo it is. At that point, a lot of people get to have fun with friends and that works up to a certain point where in order to truly progress, you have to play as an individual.

I also understand your point about smurfing but that is to be solved in another way as smurfing can be done in a solo ladder as well. If not to boost someone, to use as a backup account for trolling and griefing or generally playing under your true skill level to intentionally stomp on some people.

NiraBladeAug 26, 20162 votes

Personally i don't like to go with friends in ranked, but i truly enjoy my normals with them. The reason is that in ranked i have to focus at 100%, joking with friends meanwhile led me to perform poorly (tried a few premades ranked and i realized it isn't my thing at all).

Imho if one wants to have fun with friends there are the normals for that and if you truly want to do a premade thing just use team ranked. I do understand that there are people which want to go ranked with only 1-2-3 friends and will not be able to do so in my scenario but i don't find it fair that these groups have an advantage against me:

-voice communication -strategies that i can't put in place with 4 other strangers - especially if i have a premade in my team too

The worst thing about this season is that i coudn't do shortcalls efficiently as the last year: when i tried without premades everything went as smoothly as one year ago, when i had premades in my team they just ignored or insulted me, running in the enemy jungle to get killed 2/3 v 5. Why? "bc we're having fun" ._.""

Ofc i do realize that sometime i got carried by premades as well and i truly hate that: i don't want to win a game because i got lucky and found more coordinated premades that stomped my enemy midlaner with permaganking and stuff, i want to climb because i managed to do that by myself, otherwise where is the point in that? Last year it was a joy to talk about my wins, how i managed to carry with a right shortcall in the right moment, how i stopped a flaming fest against my poor random supports - who followed me in my calls forever and ever with the rest of the team, ecc. Even talking about my poor performances and losses with friends was good, asking them to watch my replays because i coudn't figure out why i lose that specific game and improving day by day.

If not to boost someone, to use as a backup account for trolling and griefing or generally playing under your true skill level to intentionally stomp on some people.

Yeah, but i find this problem far less "problematic" than the other one because this behaviour will lead that account to be banned. Also it happens even with this premade queue.

ElikainAug 26, 20161 votes

Getting carried isn't a bad thing at all. Whether you got carried by a solo player from a certain role or a premade makes no difference to me. Everyone wants to feel like they contributed to a victory for sure but bad games happen for everyone and i have never felt like i was riding on the success of a premade for far too long.

Overall, what you want to accomplish in your games is teamwork and communication, regardless if you're a team of solo players or a mix of small premades and solos. That's just what everyone should strive for. I'd say it's impossible to win more games if everyone is just mechanically decent but the team never acts like a team, the players do random things and never help each other to gain advantages. We've all had the games where you do good in lane but the team starts falling apart when teamfights start happening. That means winning a game doesn't squarely fall on your shoulders, everyone needs to contribute.

As far as smurfs in low ELO go, if they never announce that to us, it's impossible to detect them. Riot may know but unless we can report them for behavior that's violating the SC, they won't get punished.

NiraBladeAug 26, 20162 votes

Getting carried isn't a bad thing at all. Whether you got carried by a solo player from a certain role or a premade makes no difference to me. Everyone wants to feel like they contributed to a victory for sure but bad games happen for everyone and i have never felt like i was riding on the success of a premade for far too long.

thank you for your different prospective, it's just that i don't feel like i did something relevant to deserve my win when i just get carried by other 4 people that do everything without communicating with me (although i have to say this situation of 4 premades vs 1 solo is very rare). When in my team there is a good solo player that does something i usually stick with him and help him carry as much as i can and even if i'm not the best in our team for that specific game i feel like i contributed to the win far more than the first case.

We've all had the games where you do good in lane but the team starts falling apart when teamfights start happening.

Yep but usually you could have done something to sort out the situation before teamfights, for example as a midlaner i usually realize after a loss that i could have helped top/bot more in specific situations so that we could probably have won that game. For sure there are game that you can't win because is not only you playing but communication is far more difficult when you have a premade in your team: for my little experience they just don't listen to you, whether you call an ss or you call for an objective they just want to "hang out" with their friends. I have never met yet a good and nice premade that listen to the rest of its team too (ofc i found some solutions to this problem, but this situation it's really unnerving and frustrating).

As far as smurfs in low ELO go, if they never announce that to us, it's impossible to detect them. Riot may know but unless we can report them for behavior that's violating the SC, they won't get punished.

Well they may damage low elos ranked although i don't think it's a huge effect because if they are good they just climb pretty fast again and if they try to troll/flame they'll get banned. But what happens when these smurfs (let's say 3 diamond players using a virgin account level 30 each) join ranked together with their silver friend? They bring him all the way up to diamond/platin and because everybody wants to show how "good" they are this effect is far more predominant and problematic than a latent solo smurf in low elo (i know quite a lot of people that "magically" climb all their way from silver till plat/gold with this new feature). Also when this silver player will join ranked by himself he will ruin completely the game for the rest of his team (he probably ruins the game also for his opponent because he's much more easier to beat than the rest of diamond players).

Putting a pure SoloQ will totally prevent this, only the worthy ones will climb all up till there unless you pay to get boosted, but that's totally bannable. Instead if that silver player ranked now in plat is getting reported he will not be banned because didn't break any rules (joining ranked with friends + smurfing is legit).

rescuedAug 25, 20162 votes

Agreed. I dislike having bronze 3 in my silver 2 games.

ChargeItDownMidAug 24, 201624 votes

[deleted]

redfeenixAug 25, 20168 votes

well fucking said.

RoodToobAug 25, 20162 votes

If i recall correctly, their plan is to make two ladders but both play together.

Solo Queue would have Bronze Silver Gold Platinum Diamond Master Challenger

Dynamic/Group Queue would have Copper Iron Steel and Titanium (after that its done as its Solo only for Diamond+)

Therefore, the competitive ladder wouldn't be mixed with Boosted players, as they would all be in Titanium, not Platinum.

Thus, the Diamond Border is still exclusive, as is Plat and Gold, the boosted players would have a titanium or Steel border

ChargeItDownMidAug 25, 20164 votes

[deleted]

redfeenixAug 25, 20162 votes

So it's literally the same queue but they slapped a solo sticker on it. But its still DQ....

Sigh what a deceitful thing to do. Yes guys were giving you solo * Q

*Solo players may run into premades

RoodToobAug 25, 20161 votes

doesn't apply, once you hit titanium, its done, you need to swap to solo queue ladder, which would penalize your MMR

2&3 i can agree with, but there is no perfect system as putting in solo removes the ability to queue together for those who want to do so

ChargeItDownMidAug 25, 20162 votes

[deleted]

RoodToobAug 25, 20161 votes

They did say that, when they sad this thing about Titanium they said you would have to switch to solo queue to climb higher. Once swapped to Solo queue you would suffer a MMR penalty. However switching from solo to group/DQ wouldn't suffer an MMR penalty.

Also, im not against SQ, i don't play enough ranked to have negative effects of DQ, so i don't really care either way (i play solo). But that solution will kill Dynamic queue because of queue times. Both queue times will be doubled, then people will slowly switch to solo queue just because of queue times. People already complain about queues now, imagine then?

Also, this solution will kill 4 man premades. They aren't all toxic and i don't truly understand why people can't play ranked because 1 friend didn't log on

ElikainAug 25, 20162 votes

Why would your Diamond border be far less valuable this season than in the previous one? If you managed to get there solo, i see no decrease in value for you. In fact, if people say that premades were keeping people in tiers and divisions they don't belong, climbing the ladder solo would be even harder as you have to rely on the teammates who have no idea what to do in that ELO. In fact, If this is the case, then your Diamond solo border is worth even more. You had no choice but to work with worse people and you came out on top.

Unless you attained your Diamond border in a premade and now feel ashamed or like you didn't deserve it, i don't see how it's less valuable to you than the previous season Diamond border.

ChargeItDownMidAug 25, 20164 votes

[deleted]

ElikainAug 25, 20161 votes

So, you're debating on what impact the Tier and Division border has on the psychology of other people rather than it proving your own accomplishments? Doesn't really matter if you know how you got it but as long as everyone else knows about it too?

That sounds rather superficial. I thought that ranked was supposed to be the test of your individual skill but certain players want the flair and bragging rights. I can't stand by that.

getting to diamond was significantly easier this season.

That's only your opinion. I ended last season on Plat 1, 49 LP. I attempted to make a last push to Diamond and i couldn't make it. I always breezed through Plat because i am simply a high Plat player. This season however, i had a similar experience. Getting through Plat was easy like always but busting through Plat 1 into Diamond was tough. I made it. I am currently in Diamond 4, 55 LP and am sitting firmly in my place. Can't fall through but can't progress further than that. That means i'm a Diamond player now. If it was easier, then i'd think everyone would be able to reach Diamond ez pz. That's simply not the case.

redfeenixAug 25, 20163 votes

Well it's harder for you as a solo players, but easier for him as a dynamic player.

I think that makes sense right having a premade vastly increases your win chance and makes climbing a lot easier, compared to solo players

ElikainAug 25, 20161 votes

I don't know what kind of a player he is. Didn't ask because i thought it wasn't relevant to the discussion at hand. I assumed he was a solo player. If he feels it's easier as a premade, then he can attempt to play solo and see where he actually falls in. Unless he was only after the flair of a Diamond border at which point, he himself broke the code of competitive integrity, just because he could and it was allowed. If this was his own choice, why the change of heart now? If he was against it, he wouldn't have done it in the first place.

My comment is now based under the assumption that he is a DQ player that doesn't feel good by achieving Diamond the wrong way. Why play the wrong way, if that's the case? If the set of rules Riot put in was clearly devaluing the competitive integrity but was in a gray area, why would someone take the easier way out and then say at the very end "this isn't as satisfactory as i had hoped it would be"?

What he basically did was cheat on a test and then he came to the realization that he didn't learn anything about the subject, which was the point of cheating. Get a good grade by doing nothing - devaluing the grading system.

redfeenixAug 25, 20162 votes

Wow you write really well. I honestly agree with you here like what's the fucking point of cheating and winning a competition? Yes you get the medal but in the back of your heart you know you didn't earn it fairly.

Maybe this issue of morality doesn't affect some people and they would just rather have the border. That sould make sense why people pay to get boosted. They don't care about improving or have pride in their own skills. They just want the diamond borders for aesthetic reasons and to shoe off.

This is just my two cents I'm not sure if it applies to everyone or if I'm just ovethinking things.

But you should consider a career in law or journalism you write very well and convincingly

SwiftKitten88Aug 24, 20165 votes

{quoted}

I don't think it makes a difference before diamond. Players flat out just do not coordinate well enough pre-diamond for dynamic q to be a real problem.

you will get just as many pre-mades who carry you as pull you down

if you are matched with a pre-made you are almost guaranteed to be facing one At the end of it all if you deserve a higher rank you will still get there.

(before you call me boosted, I play primarily solo and duo. Occasionally i play with more because its nice to KNOW that my team won't flame me)

it probably makes the biggest difference of all in lower elo. a group of 3 or 4 gold can EASILY carry almost ANY player out of bronze and into silver and likely into gold. that player then gets a "gold banner" and when he plays without his group of players how are ACTUALLY that elo he makes w/e team he gets put on lose EVERY TIME.

there are SOO many players in silver and gold that dont belong there right now mostly because of dynamic que..

UberAffeAug 25, 20161 votes

Thats boosting and not what we were talking about. We were talking about solo players playing with and against pre-mades. But on this topic, the more boosted people there are above you the easier it should be to climb. If you truly belong in gold or plat and you are in silver but half the people in gold don't belong there it should be a cake walk to rank up past them.

The only thing i see dynamic que doing is changing the distribution of players. Silver - Gold will become the average instead of Bronze - Silver. Which I don't think is a bad thing. It will give players who are starting out a better idea of if they are improving because they will have somewhere to climb to before they are average, while players who are average or above are only losing 1 tier of distinction.

SwiftKitten88Aug 25, 20166 votes

{quoted}

Thats boosting and not what we were talking about. We were talking about solo players playing with and against pre-mades. But on this topic, the more boosted people there are above you the easier it should be to climb. If you truly belong in gold or plat and you are in silver but half the people in gold don't belong there it should be a cake walk to rank up past them.

The only thing i see dynamic que doing is changing the distribution of players. Silver - Gold will become the average instead of Bronze - Silver. Which I don't think is a bad thing. It will give players who are starting out a better idea of if they are improving because they will have somewhere to climb to before they are average, while players who are average or above are only losing 1 tier of distinction.

except there IS no average anymore... the boosted players can be anywhere form silver to plat (as people IN plat can contest) even if only 10% of players in any elo are boosted and don't belong there that is still one in EVERY game.. and right now it sure as hell seems like a lot higher than 10%...

colesyAug 24, 201613 votes

dynamic queue is a complete non factor in low elo. hell I'm pretty sure I could go in against some 5-man in silver and I'd completely wipe the floor with them. the co-ordination you get from dynamic queuing isn't even relevant until diamond because people can't even play the game until then.

redfeenixAug 24, 201614 votes

Yes and No.

For example i'm sure I could overcome 5 players on comms as well. Sure they might be more coordinated during ganks/ team fights or map rotations, but I still think I could beat them.

But the point is that 5 solo players just dont have that lvl of communication. Therefore yes its possible for 5 skilled solo players to beat a team of 5 on comms, but its realistically not a fair game if one team is on comms and the other isnt.

Plus every game I have to get used to my teammates etc, while premades play with the same people all the time. They will naturally develop some synergy over time, while I have to figure out how good my teammates are / their playstyles each game.

I'm not saying its good or bad, but I am saying that at a fundamental level its not really fair for 5 solos to be matched with a full team of 5.

They should take a page out of blizzards book. You can only be matched with an enemy party within 2 sizes of yours.

Ie 5 solo players will only EVER play vs a max of 3 premades. A 5 man premade can at most be matched with a 3 man premade and 2 others (solo or duo). So this approach if adopted would create more fair/balanced games, I think.

MunchCrunchLunchAug 24, 201612 votes

its not like people just pop onto diamond master right off they start playing league. they climb. am sorry but premades on our team. and against us. can change the way the game. works. sure on average it might not matter much. but you can't make that argument. thats pure bullshit. i dont want to have a duo troll that are duo jungling leaving adc or support alone. as it has happened. and i don't want premades that flame the other 1-2 players despitre them being bad at the game. or the guy that goes afk while his buddy tells us not to report for afking. or playing against a duo jungle and laner that just turret dive you 28 times by the end of the game.

you're making the game feel like a roll of dice which on average doesn't matter but its out of the control of the SOLO player to decide what happens

you can make the argument that higher elo player even without communication know what are the optimal decisions their team mates will do. and respond well to their actions meanwhile its quite easy to tell someone over skype what to do at any skill level. thre are no visual queues for most of these things and its easier for experienced players to make decisions.

Dextix LTAug 25, 201611 votes

Soloq should be for all Elos. I am currently in Plat 1, and i want soloq, because i cant get over the barrier to diamond 5. So just because i cant rise one goddamn rank i should be forbidden from playing a fair game?

Fairness should not start only from the highest elos, it should be a given in ALL elos.

Zephyrous XAug 24, 20168 votes

Yup, premades are awful, never communicate with the rest of the team :/

redfeenixAug 24, 20168 votes

Or they troll and don't give a fuck if they win or lose their just having fun

Zephyrous XAug 24, 20167 votes

{quoted}

Or they troll and don't give a fuck if they win or lose their just having fun

yeah DQ just turns me away from ranked i actually play this game about half as much as i used to. and for some reason team builder is still gone even though it was a queue where no one could troll and the community wasn't as toxic :/

SorrettAug 24, 20166 votes

What stops a solo or duo group from doing that? The system can't control individual players actions or attitudes.

DukuesAug 25, 20164 votes

It would be cool to have solo queue at lower elos, but ultimately is unnecessary. In my opinion season 7 should be better than season 6. Not a lot will change at lower elos, but they are going to introduce a way players are recognized as solo or dynamic queue. I think Platinum elo at least lower ranks around plat 1-2 could probably benefit from solo queue more as well. But lower elos dynamic queue vs solo queue is not much different.

People try and bitch about it at lower elos but I have played 700 ranked games this season and hardly notice the difference. This is on 3 accounts all of which are only gold 4-5 but my climb whether playing solo or dynamic queue is about the same. I do have more fun playing with friends and would like that option to stay, but I have had a lot of success playing solo as well. So if your a lower level (at least gold 4 - bronze 5 as its all i can vouch for) player and say you can't rank up because of dynamic queue then you just need to improve because I have had no problems. And this is on multiple accounts not just one.