Does vayne really need a mini dash on a 2 second cooldown?

only zhule·Nov 29, 2016·12 votes·1,115 views

Title basically explains it. Why does Vayne need a mini dash on such a short cooldown? She already gets bonus movement speed walking towards enemies (and a metric ton if she used her ultimate), so why does she also need auto attack reset on a dash with next to no cooldown? I might not even care as much if she couldn't use it to go invisible 3+ times per ultimate.

Can we please have it cap out at like a 4 second cooldown at rank 5? It's very annoying that she can basically AA,tumble reset AA, AA, tumble reset AA.... and the only answer is to blow a stun and an escape ability if you want any hope of disengaging from her.

32 Comments

CerealBoxOfDoomNov 29, 20166 votes

yes, she really does

You don't wanna know what happens if she doesn't have this

The real question is whether or not vayne needs a flat damage steroid on her ult assuming she still has this

sit kidNov 29, 20161 votes

Removing it would be a HUGE nerf and then what should the Ultimate do? Obly put her in stealth for 1 second when casting Q? It would take some serious buffs in order to compensate such a nerf

CerealBoxOfDoomNov 29, 20161 votes

maybe the trade is needed.

but flat damage on a champ like vayne probably isn't a good idea. On top of stealth information advantage, tons of damage, displacement effect, etc

Also the reason I say flat is because it doesn't have to be flat. Vayne should perhaps benefit from constantly attacking.

only zhuleNov 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

yes, she really does

You don't wanna know what happens if she doesn't have this

The real question is whether or not vayne needs a flat damage steroid on her ult assuming she still has this

i am curious. i personally think she would still be in a fine place if the tumble topped out at 4 seconds cooldown (without CDR). Still a lot of rolling, but bit less chase, can't use invisible nearly as times per ultimate, does help with her burst damage (though i'd rather just see a reduction in how much bonus damage she gets off her roll).

GULAG 4 UNov 30, 20161 votes

Do you play vayne?

only zhuleNov 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Do you play vayne?

I do not. i am also not 100% sure how the tumble damage is factored. From what i'm reading, it looks like it does 30-50% bonus damage equal to 30-70% of your total attack damage.

GULAG 4 UNov 30, 20161 votes

Don't say things about a champion you don't understand then

only zhuleDec 1, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Don't say things about a champion you don't understand then

one needs not have a complete understanding of a champion to know that a 2 second ability that crits most of the time in late game (because that's the current "best build") and does a bonus 200-ish damage per use might be a bit stronger then need be.

One needs not totally understand the mechanics of one ability to note that an ult that offers 2/4/5 instances of invisibility might be a "bit" strong. Or to note that the same ultimate gives a sizeable damage steroid as well as a very large chase tool that makes the champion a real pain to try and escape. All great abilities... just maybe not all at the same time.

I also note that you don't bother to explain how the damage equation works with her tumble. since one would assume you would follow your own advise and not comment about a champion you don't understand.

CerealBoxOfDoomNov 30, 20161 votes

Riot already tried something like this.

But it turns out that her AS dropped because of this and they had to buff her AS and then she got broke anyways.

Vayne is actually easier to balance because of her tumble in a way. It actually both boosts and restricts her attack speed when she is reliant on it.

On her ultimate she is going to use it 2 times or 3 I dunno but she isn't going to be doing anything to you with all of them. Its still just going to be that one tumble. It would be a better idea to just lower the duration of the ult or stealth

only zhuleNov 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Riot already tried something like this.

But it turns out that her AS dropped because of this and they had to buff her AS and then she got broke anyways.

Vayne is actually easier to balance because of her tumble in a way. It actually both boosts and restricts her attack speed when she is reliant on it.

On her ultimate she is going to use it 2 times or 3 I dunno but she isn't going to be doing anything to you with all of them. Its still just going to be that one tumble. It would be a better idea to just lower the duration of the ult or stealth

i'll take your word on the AS issue. The multi tumble during ult is more of an issue because it allows her a lot of ability to re position and avoid hard CC which kind of feels like the only answer to her current form.

There are a lot of fun ideas on how to nerf her without totally gutting her. One of the one's i'm most fond of is to remove the crit potential from the bonus damage of tumble. It let's her keep her mobility, the bonus damage % can still be high, she still can fight tanks with her 3 hit passive, but it takes away her ability to tumble crit for like 300 more damage then normal.

CerealBoxOfDoomNov 30, 20161 votes

my ideal solution is this

Vayne keeps her tumble and tumble crits

Vayne can no longer crit unless her ult is up

Vayne now always crits when her ult is up.

vayne's ult no longer has flat damage but she gets a permanent 25% crit damage per point in the skill

Vayne's autos are no longer effected by attack speed. Vayne's cooldowns now scale with attack speed.

something like this, balance form here.

You'd need to buff her W somewhat but I for one don't mind this at all. Make her even more reliant on her Q instead of nerfing it. Let Q and e be her attack speed.

she'd be ability dependent but I believe it would be a lot easier to balance if she was more like jhin or graves with their unique restrictions which is the most important part of this idea not the specific restrictions. I think every adc should have a unique autoattack and vayne has a crossbow

only zhuleNov 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

my ideal solution is this

Vayne keeps her tumble and tumble crits

Vayne can no longer crit unless her ult is up

Vayne now always crits when her ult is up.

vayne's ult no longer has flat damage but she gets a permanent 25% crit damage per point in the skill

Vayne's autos are no longer effected by attack speed. Vayne's cooldowns now scale with attack speed.

something like this, balance form here.

You'd need to buff her W somewhat but I for one don't mind this at all. Make her even more reliant on her Q instead of nerfing it. Let Q and e be her attack speed.

she'd be ability dependent but I believe it would be a lot easier to balance if she was more like jhin or graves with their unique restrictions which is the most important part of this idea not the specific restrictions. I think every adc should have a unique autoattack and vayne has a crossbow

Are we talking the tumble can't crit or she as a whole can't crit except with ultimate up?

The first would be interesting and would mean she has to pop the ultimate if she wants to burst, and thus risks wasting it if she doesn't finish her opponent. The second is worrying since that means she's 100% reliant on her ultimate to dual enemies, which in theory gives HUGE down time when she wouldn't be able to do anything due to ultimate being on cooldown in the mid to late game.

CerealBoxOfDoomNov 30, 20161 votes

its not vaynes job to win duels

its not like she cant be balanced if she does either though but theres no reason she cant be reliant on her ult to do so

she'd need sompensation elsewhere of course.

GrimspeakeNov 29, 20165 votes

Its really only an auto reset if u tumble against a wall when ur right beside it otherwise its more for repositioning when ur in ult

RalanrNov 29, 20164 votes

It's to help her kite quickly in combat.

Note that I don't care for Vayne at all.

MelledoneusNov 29, 20161 votes

Fuck Vayne and her true damage crit bullshit.

GULAG 4 UNov 30, 20161 votes

Yo melle, Salt is gud with potatoes but too much of it is bad for your health xd

MelledoneusNov 30, 20161 votes

Psh. I'm more salty that she can dodge my dash or cancel it with her E.

GULAG 4 UNov 30, 20161 votes

At least I can tank her shit as yi and she can't hit me during ult as kha :^}

MelledoneusNov 30, 20161 votes

It sucks because I'll walk up to her, she dashes. "Ok," I think as I chase her down to help my team catch her, "her dash is down, it's time to engage."

Then I dash at her and she cancels it with an ability with a shorter cooldown than my dash.

Yay.

agbudarNov 29, 20162 votes

guess what happens when you get an item 3508 after getting your core item 3006 item 3031 item 3087

SlythionNov 29, 20162 votes

the movement from tumble isn't the problem, it's the stupidly raw damage from the tumble that causes issues

sit kidNov 29, 20161 votes

From PBE: Tumble damage ratio lowered to 30/35/40/45/50% AD from ~~30/40/50/60/70% AD~~

SlythionNov 30, 20161 votes

I'm not sure if that's quite enough of a nerf but I think it'll put her into a manageable position at least, I guess we'll see. At least riot is nerfing her the right way though, and not removing her tumble movement all together

Blumpkin NationNov 29, 20162 votes

Yes. But she doesn't need the extra damage provided by rolling. She should be a champion that is hard to pin down, and rewarded for doing so on a low cool down. She does NOT need the ability to deal additional damage after rolling. She doesn't need true damage either. She also doesn't need additional AD on her ult which already has a stealth feature.

Vayne just needs a mini-rework. Move some abilities and passives around.

Q: Just a short cool down dash/evade. W: Passive: Deals small amounts of flat true damage / Active: gain % attack speed and deal %HP damage every x amount of hits as true damage. (passive lost during cool down). E: Swap to a large cross bow as your weapon, dealing X amount of extra damage, but decreased attack speed. First attack knocks first enemy back. R: Triples pasive from 30 to 90 as normal. Grants 10/20/30 AD and gives Q ability to stealth for 1 second. Shorter active duration.

Sahn UzalNov 29, 20161 votes

I think the question is ''Does Vayne need a Movementspeed passive while having a Mini dash on a 2 seconds CD''

CowseedNov 29, 20161 votes

I think you're on to something. Scratch that. I KNOW you're right.

Buff it to 1s. Next topic!

420 gramsNov 29, 20161 votes

For balance reasons.

Teridax68Nov 29, 20161 votes

I think the issue is more with her passive than it is with her Q. Vayne's short-cooldown dash is what lets her dodge incoming fire at critical moments while engaging targets at relatively close ranges (for a marksman), as well as outmaneuver enemies in general. Her passive, though, essentially means it's difficult, and sometimes impossible, to outrun her, which doesn't feel fun at all and tends to make her a bit more snowbally than she needs to be (enemies can't escape when she's ahead, but the effect's next to useless if she's behind). I'd keep the low cooldown on her dash, and replace her passive instead (Silver Bolts is core to her entire playstyle and niche, and could easily be her "true" innate).

only zhuleNov 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I think the issue is more with her passive than it is with her Q. Vayne's short-cooldown dash is what lets her dodge incoming fire at critical moments while engaging targets at relatively close ranges (for a marksman), as well as outmaneuver enemies in general. Her passive, though, essentially means it's difficult, and sometimes impossible, to outrun her, which doesn't feel fun at all and tends to make her a bit more snowbally than she needs to be (enemies can't escape when she's ahead, but the effect's next to useless if she's behind). I'd keep the low cooldown on her dash, and replace her passive instead (Silver Bolts is core to her entire playstyle and niche, and could easily be her "true" innate).

I think that a short-ish cooldown is fine. But i'm not sure that it really needs to be THAT short for her to work. something like a 4 second cooldown would still allow for dodging of skillshots and some useful positioning in fights, but wouldn't allow her a near constant chase/escape tool.

All that said there are a lot of issues with Vayne right now, mostly that she has currently shed her "anti tank" role and now is just a burst ADC (with tools to still take down tanks)

Teridax68Nov 30, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zV7VhQ0E,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2016-11-30T00:36:11.687+0000)

I think that a short-ish cooldown is fine. But i'm not sure that it really needs to be THAT short for her to work. something like a 4 second cooldown would still allow for dodging of skillshots and some useful positioning in fights, but wouldn't allow her a near constant chase/escape tool.

That might be true, but at the same time, her dash does carry interesting gameplay, and since the cooldown begins only upon hitting the empowered autoattack, it doesn't make for the best escape tool. If you want to cut down her pervasive chasing strength, taking out her passive would likely be the best option, as it doesn't carry nearly as much interaction, and if you want to make her less mobile overall, her base movement speed could also be cut down by 5 (she's at 330 right now, one grade above 325, the minimum for any champion).

[{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zV7VhQ0E,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2016-11-30T00:36:11.687+0000)

All that said there are a lot of issues with Vayne right now, mostly that she has currently shed her "anti tank" role and now is just a burst ADC (with tools to still take down tanks)

This I completely agree with. Vayne is closer to a skirmisher in her playstyle and damage output, not an assassin, and that she gets to burst down squishies in three autoattacks or less is not at all healthy. Vayne's design is very delicate in that it's conditional on her taking some time to kill targets: too much burst, and suddenly all of her survival tools, i.e. her dash, her stealth, her hard CC, just remove necessary counterplay from her while she kills targets without them being able to react properly. Above all else, she needs to not have burst, and perhaps then her low-cooldown dashes might be more justified.