Can Riot maybe buff the support role income? or make sightstone more useful late game?

only zhule··48 votes·2,775 views

I understand the basic idea of support "you are suppose to help your team to victory", but i honestly do not understand the reasoning behind making a role that is expected to run on greatly reduced income. This becomes even more of an issue when you consider that most supports are having to drop 1200-2000 gold (sightstone and boots) before they can start building their core offensive/defensive items. Add to this the fact that as a support you are usually running a couple thousand gold behind your allies. Even with the support items (they help but i think they could do more), you are often at least 1 item behind you allies. Would it be possible to put a mastery deep in the utility tree, something that gives like 25-50% to a character if an ally kills a minion near you? I just would really love something that made it easier to be on par with my allies item wise.

Could we also talk about Sightstone in general as an item. Personally i think it's a real pain to deal with. You have to pick it up early to maximize it's vision potential, so that off sets your ability to buy other items that you might need for your core build. In the late game it's almost painful to have it in your inventory, since 150 health is really not worth an item slot... However you can't really give up the vision it provides around the map. The charges only restock when you visit the shop so you are basically forced to port back to base every 2-3 minutes if you want to keep vision up in multiple spots. So you can't really siege an area (tower, baron, dragon, etc..) without risking running out of wards and being blind to your enemies movements. Would it be possible to maybe have the item regenerate wards at something like a rate of 1 per 90 seconds? Keep players from having infinite wards, but also keep people from having to return to base over and over again just to recharge an item.

item 2049 currently has the issue of being the only item that has to be constantly recharged to be useful. I am aware of flask existing but you rarely ever see a player rocking out with a flask in the mid to late game. Sightstone is such a core item for a team that you will always have at least one player holding one as soon as it can be picked up.

TL/DR:
It sucks always being a core item behind as a support.

Sightstone makes you delay your core items early game, and the stats and usufulness are subpar to horrible late game BUT you still can't get rid of it.

78 Comments

50000000000000005 votes

As a support main, I'd prefer not to see more gold income. That said, I would love to see item 3303 and its upgrades be buffed hard, so that it's on par with other gold income items. I'd also say that item 3302 should have some sort of mana sustain, but maybe I'm asking too much. item 3301 is in fine spot imo.

Since supports build gold income (2800 gold), Sightstone (800 gold), and boots (800 to 1000, assuming support doesn't get item 3020) and still be useful in mid game, supports don't really need more gold income. Sum of those items is 4400~4600 gold. That's pretty easy to get, especially if you're running gold income runes/masteries on top of gold income items.

I do agree that sightstone should be something more useful, though. I'd be okay with removing ward jumps if only to buff sightstone.

tempname075475931 votes

thank you for being one of the only people on here who understand what support does. we do not need that much more gold. our kits and abilities are there to make up for the gold we do not have. imagine if they implemented some of the stuff talked here, and then everybody would be whining how support is OP when Janna has a Rabadon's at 25 minutes, and is throwing out 400 dmg shields and healing for 300 hp/sec.

agree on spellthiefs, agree on coin, but disagree on buffing relic's (even slightly) as it's the strongest support item atm :d...

sightstone is fine where it is, i would much rather pay 800 for HP and infinite wards than pay 1200 when they buff it.

only zhule1 votes

[{quoted}](name=the Janna Carry,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EJu0UiJo,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2015-09-08T12:53:34.558+0000)

thank you for being one of the only people on here who understand what support does. we do not need that much more gold. our kits and abilities are there to make up for the gold we do not have. imagine if they implemented some of the stuff talked here, and then everybody would be whining how support is OP when Janna has a Rabadon's at 25 minutes, and is throwing out 400 dmg shields and healing for 300 hp/sec.

agree on spellthiefs, agree on coin, but disagree on buffing relic's (even slightly) as it's the strongest support item atm :d...

sightstone is fine where it is, i would much rather pay 800 for HP and infinite wards than pay 1200 when they buff it.

My only question is when is the last time that a support has been considered over powered? By this i mean a traditional support character playing a traditional support role, not a "support" like Annie being played mid and having the advantages of a solo lane and thus being strong. Last time i remember it happening was when they finally decided that Soraka's mana and healing was to strong, and/or when they decided that Sona's passive buffs were to strong.

Abyssphere2 votes

[{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EJu0UiJo,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2015-09-08T16:26:05.236+0000)

My only question is when is the last time that a support has been considered over powered? By this i mean a traditional support character playing a traditional support role, not a "support" like Annie being played mid and having the advantages of a solo lane and thus being strong. Last time i remember it happening was when they finally decided that Soraka's mana and healing was to strong, and/or when they decided that Sona's passive buffs were to strong.

It depends what you mean by overpowered. This season, we've seen a fair amount of support nerfs. Janna being the #1 target.

Dalthine3 votes

Let's see.

Supports that historically were supports, but showed the ability to dominate solo lanes included Lulu, Thresh, Janna (yes Janna), and Sona. All received multiple or hard nerfs because they could destroy a solo lane given the income of one on a support kit.

Supports that were reworked for kits Riot didn't like were Soraka and Sona. The latter of which was nerfed hard in the initial rework, then was nerfed several more times after. Arguably, you could throw Veigar into this category because as soon as he was picked up for LCK as a support his cage was gutted.

Champs designed as supports seeing play in solo lanes in high tier play right now include Tahm and Lulu. The latter of which is in line for nerfs for it.

And lastly, supports that are currently being complained about include Thresh, Blitz, Annie, and Morgana, the former half more than the latter, but people still complain about the instant stun and forever snare.

The thing is, the reason champs are picked as supports isn't just that they work better with a teammate. It's because they do not need large amounts of gold to have an impact with their abilities. They are designed around this. Historically, as in the first set of cases, a champ with a kit like this can very easily become op if they get the chance to combine that utility with a full income equivalent to a solo laner's. From what you were saying, you also don't seem to realize that mid was Annie's intended role, and she was then pulled in as a support when people realized they could still get that utility without sacrificing their mid position for it.

It sounds to me like you don't want supports, you just want a role that duo lanes and still gets full income. While it does bring more potential diversity to team comps by opening up champ selection in the role, it also strangles out champs that don't need that gold. I.e. current supports. There would be no reason to run someone who doesn't scale if you're going to get full income anyway. It's a different role with different intentions, and it is very much in the realm of breaking the game wide open if their income is significantly increased.

only zhule1 votes

{quoted}

Let's see.

Supports that historically were supports, but showed the ability to dominate solo lanes included Lulu, Thresh, Janna (yes Janna), and Sona. All received multiple or hard nerfs because they could destroy a solo lane given the income of one on a support kit.

Supports that were reworked for kits Riot didn't like were Soraka and Sona. The latter of which was nerfed hard in the initial rework, then was nerfed several more times after. Arguably, you could throw Veigar into this category because as soon as he was picked up for LCK as a support his cage was gutted.

Champs designed as supports seeing play in solo lanes in high tier play right now include Tahm and Lulu. The latter of which is in line for nerfs for it.

And lastly, supports that are currently being complained about include Thresh, Blitz, Annie, and Morgana, the former half more than the latter, but people still complain about the instant stun and forever snare.

The thing is, the reason champs are picked as supports isn't just that they work better with a teammate. It's because they do not need large amounts of gold to have an impact with their abilities. They are designed around this. Historically, as in the first set of cases, a champ with a kit like this can very easily become op if they get the chance to combine that utility with a full income equivalent to a solo laner's. From what you were saying, you also don't seem to realize that mid was Annie's intended role, and she was then pulled in as a support when people realized they could still get that utility without sacrificing their mid position for it.

It sounds to me like you don't want supports, you just want a role that duo lanes and still gets full income. While it does bring more potential diversity to team comps by opening up champ selection in the role, it also strangles out champs that don't need that gold. I.e. current supports. There would be no reason to run someone who doesn't scale if you're going to get full income anyway. It's a different role with different intentions, and it is very much in the realm of breaking the game wide open if their income is significantly increased.

The issue is that while some supports do not require a lot of gold to function as intended (mostly the more tanky supports) you are still left with some supports who are greatly underpowered until they hit a tipping point item wise. These supports usually end up being the utility based non tank characters. The characters that require a fair amount of mana regen, cooldown reduction, AP, etc... before they finally shift from shambling sad sacks to viable members of the team.

Take Sona for example she can be amazing late game, however this isn't based on her hitting a tipping point in her kit like other champions usually do (or if it is it's a very late tipping point like post level 13). Sona is this lumbering mess of a champion until you finally get some half decent mana regen and can pick up enough CDR to make her kit functional in a fight.

The idea has never been to make supports have 100% equal gold income compared to the rest of the team. It was to fix the issue that your first item is underwhelming, super passive no matter what phase of the game, and makes you put off the rest of your core for a prolonged period of time. I am also under the impression that much of a supports gold really ends up being tied to the amount of assists they have in the game. I feel pretty confident that if a support only got 30% of the assists (lets assume they are targeted down first) you wouldn't just see a few hundred to 1-2 thousand gold discrepancy. It would likely be something like 4-6 thousand, or basically two end game items.

Dalthine2 votes

I've never seen a game where a support was down more than 3k than the top of their team unless it was a troll or a stomp. As a support I've even had rare games here and there where I've come out as #1 or #2, though it doesn't happen often. A large chunk of their gold comes from assists, true , but that's because it's what they're supposed to do in the game. I wouldn't be surprised to look up support in a dictionary and there's a good chance assist would be in it.

Champs that rely heavily on item breakpoints likely have strengths elsewhere or are better off as mid laners. Sona, your example, is actually very strong in the first few levels, when her autos still sting. Her early poke with Q and empowered aa is very strong, but she falls off hard mid game without items, and her main contribution becomes her ult at that point.

And I also think you're making the mistake of thinking that you absolutely have to finish off your support item first. It's not nearly that important. The first upgrade is normally very nice, but if you need other items to fulfill your role, hold off on that 1500 gold to get stage 3 and sink it somewhere else. You need Sightstone and you need boots. Everything else is malleable.

only zhule1 votes

{quoted}

I've never seen a game where a support was down more than 3k than the top of their team unless it was a troll or a stomp. As a support I've even had rare games here and there where I've come out as #1 or #2, though it doesn't happen often. A large chunk of their gold comes from assists, true , but that's because it's what they're supposed to do in the game. I wouldn't be surprised to look up support in a dictionary and there's a good chance assist would be in it.

Champs that rely heavily on item breakpoints likely have strengths elsewhere or are better off as mid laners. Sona, your example, is actually very strong in the first few levels, when her autos still sting. Her early poke with Q and empowered aa is very strong, but she falls off hard mid game without items, and her main contribution becomes her ult at that point.

And I also think you're making the mistake of thinking that you absolutely have to finish off your support item first. It's not nearly that important. The first upgrade is normally very nice, but if you need other items to fulfill your role, hold off on that 1500 gold to get stage 3 and sink it somewhere else. You need Sightstone and you need boots. Everything else is malleable.

People keep saying Sona has a strong poke early game, i would disagree. The poke isn't weak, but there are so many things other then the numbers you have to look at. Like say how much mana you will have to burn if you want to have the passive up for damage. Her AA range isn't all that impressive so zoning her out is a lot easier then people want to admit, and without the AA portion of her one offensive spell you can basically shrug off her damage like it's nothing. Against Soraka or Nami your poke can usually be countered by their heal, against hard engage champions like Leona, Blitz, Thresh, etc... You have to bait out the engage skill before you can risk poking (or have a high change of getting locked down and killed when they catch you out).

I personally never finish the spell thief line, hell i rarely bother upgrading it if i'm playing a mana hungry champion. Would much rather have the 500 gold invested into mana regen item then the pitiful upgrades that item gives.

67570725_DEL1 votes

item 3303 is fine. I usually buy it and never upgrade it. item 3098 needs a small buff, and item 3092 needs a large buff. I rarely ever do the 3rd upgrade because the item seems really weak, not worth, and I don't like the active.

Boomerangbro4 votes

We had an item that evened out the support gold income, but Riot never implemented it. item 3840

only zhule4 votes

{quoted}

We had an item that evened out the support gold income, but Riot never implemented it. item 3840

Oh dear god how i wish that item had made it into the regular game. Thing was amazing, good gold generation, good support effect, good utility, good over all stats, each tier of the item was good so you never felt like you were either wasting gold upgrading it, or sitting with your thumb up your butt waiting to upgrade it so it would actually be useful.

67570725_DEL2 votes

This item was very weak... I think the other support items are much stronger.

CreationFlaw4 votes

Lmao, inb4 s1-s3 was a hella lot worse then s4-s5 for income

only zhule4 votes

Because god forbid the game evolve and adapt right?

Partholonian5 votes

Viktor Khazix two thumbs up. Well, one thumb and one claw.

Ratbert4 votes

Well the first time it happened, mages pushed out more traditional supports as they didn't have the gold income before to be viable. The only old support who needed gold to really shine was karma, but she got reworked.

If gold became more available to supports, I could see double carry or more double ad lanes which would be horrid to play against. (imagine riven going bottom)

only zhule1 votes

{quoted}

Well the first time it happened, mages pushed out more traditional supports as they didn't have the gold income before to be viable. The only old support who needed gold to really shine was karma, but she got reworked.

If gold became more available to supports, I could see double carry or more double ad lanes which would be horrid to play against. (imagine riven going bottom)

I understand the issue it could rise. That's why i don't think the change should be a huge boost, just a little increase to help off set the issue that the laning phase usually ends up meaning you are behind on gold and levels compared to your team. As i said before i usually notice at least a 2-3K gold difference between the supports and the rest of the team at the end of the game.

Riven sounds scary but imagine her trying getting hard engaged on in a 2v1... without being fed before hand, and being on par or under leveled compared to her opponents.

fasega1 votes

I think the utility tree should give an option to increase the effectiveness of the gold income items would be nice. I think instead of the bandit giving gold for hitting people they should rework it to boost the support gold income items. That way you must invest into to support role to benefit from it.

Partholonian4 votes

It was, but is that a good reason why the progress toward making support a real champion should stop at its current stage? "It used to be worse" isn't much of an argument.

OP also forgot to mention that you're usually 1-2 levels behind everyone else, too. So you have worse base stats on top of worse items.

Fiveofswords2 votes

thats why you use champs that dont depend on income. damn dude...i was used to season 1 before any gold items existed at all. I feel like i have too much income now. I often get a full build long before game ends as support

Silver Fluffenbu2 votes

make sightstone more useful by removing trinkets. then there would be a niche for that specific item. with less free vision, sightstone would have more inherent value as a 'must have' for supports and a situational niche item for mid and top give the sightstone an armor and a mr build path so the item slot isn't a wasted slot in the late game for mid and top

siilentdeath1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Silver Fluffenbu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EJu0UiJo,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-09-08T00:26:22.797+0000)

make sightstone more useful by removing trinkets. then there would be a niche for that specific item. with less free vision, sightstone would have more inherent value as a 'must have' for supports and a situational niche item for mid and top give the sightstone an armor and a mr build path so the item slot isn't a wasted slot in the late game for mid and top

get smarter about your upgrade. i take pink ward trinket upgrade when i get my sightstone. now i have to buy no more wards rest of the game.

Silver Fluffenbu1 votes

yeah, and with the stealth ward upgrade you can keep 3 wards on the map at all times without a sightstone.

siilentdeath2 votes

this guys 1st paragraph show his lack of understanding of what a support is. "having to drop 1200 to 2000 gold in boots and a sightstone before they can buy offensive or defensive core items" says it all. good support champions do not rely on gold income. if you want more gold get your carry fed. as the support your job is not to carry but help your team win and play better. if people want to play a solid defensive support then use taric. take armor and magic resist runes like i do and then take shatter at level 3. combined with ninja tabi i have almost 100 armor at level 3. yes people think taric is lame. your job as the support is aid your teammates and not say " im gonna go Gangplank support. trust me i got this."

only zhule2 votes

{quoted}

this guys 1st paragraph show his lack of understanding of what a support is. "having to drop 1200 to 2000 gold in boots and a sightstone before they can buy offensive or defensive core items" says it all. good support champions do not rely on gold income. if you want more gold get your carry fed. as the support your job is not to carry but help your team win and play better. if people want to play a solid defensive support then use taric. take armor and magic resist runes like i do and then take shatter at level 3. combined with ninja tabi i have almost 100 armor at level 3. yes people think taric is lame. your job as the support is aid your teammates and not say " im gonna go Gangplank support. trust me i got this."

i love the little fantasy world you live in where just because i want my ally to be fed it means that the enemy team will let them get fed without issue.

Try getting your ally fed without a hard engage tool. Try getting them fed against a hard engage when your champion is naturally squishy.

Athenes Lulu2 votes

Or we can talk about poke supports first. They're still outclassed by the tank ones.

Rito somehow expects those "AP supports" to build legit AP mid items even though we all know that they're only luxury items. Utility scalings are totally a good idea because 3 slots (instead of 5, boots don't count) + low income + utility scalings would definitely make everyone run AP items and scale something every game!

Also RIP support Lulu Rito never wanted me to work botlane anyways.

only zhule1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cancerous Lulu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EJu0UiJo,comment-id=0017,timestamp=2015-09-09T00:41:07.823+0000)

Or we can talk about poke supports first. They're still outclassed by the tank ones.

Rito somehow expects those "AP supports" to build legit AP mid items even though we all know that they're only luxury items. Utility scalings are totally a good idea because 3 slots (instead of 5, boots don't count) + low income + utility scalings would definitely make everyone run AP items and scale something every game!

Also RIP support Lulu Rito never wanted me to work botlane anyways.

OMG THIS THIS IS WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. someone else gets it that poke utility supports need some loving.

Matezoide1 votes

Support doesnt need more gold.

only zhule4 votes

{quoted}

Support doesnt need more gold.

That's one opinion, clearly i disagree.

M Dragon141 votes

[{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EJu0UiJo,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-09-07T21:33:37.864+0000)

That's one opinion, clearly i disagree.

Why do they need more gold? For items? What items are too expensive that they need MORE gold..... They make so much now.... It's not like they need it to do damage. A support is used for utility, and there are plenty of cheap items that provide that for supports already.

only zhule1 votes

{quoted}

Why do they need more gold? For items? What items are too expensive that they need MORE gold..... They make so much now.... It's not like they need it to do damage. A support is used for utility, and there are plenty of cheap items that provide that for supports already.

well lets see. item 3174 would be lovely on those support champions that are super mana hungry. item 3100 for those champions who's play style can be more poke centered. item 3285 if i'm playing a champion that either moves around a lot or casts a ton of spells. item 3050 for the ADC's that it would really help.

Basically any item beyond sightstone, boots, and your support based item chain (item 3303 item chain could really use a power boost). You claim that supports get enough gold but in general (at least that i've seen) supports always end up with less gold then the rest of the team when you look at the end of game stats.

Also you claim that supports shouldn't be doing damage. Why is that? Why shouldn't that class have an option to build damage if they so desire? It might hurt there utility a bit, but it should still be a viable option if someone wishes to take it.

Dalthine1 votes

[{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EJu0UiJo,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2015-09-08T03:31:52.345+0000) You claim that supports get enough gold but in general (at least that i've seen) supports always end up with less gold then the rest of the team when you look at the end of game stats.

Also you claim that supports shouldn't be doing damage. Why is that? Why shouldn't that class have an option to build damage if they so desire? It might hurt there utility a bit, but it should still be a viable option if someone wishes to take it.

I didn't make this claim but I figured I would jump in here, though I may regret it. Short answer on why supports wind up with less gold? Someone has to. There are three lanes and a jungle. Someone's not getting one of them. Supports are designed or chosen because they don't need that gold to do their job. And you shouldn't be rewarded for doing nothing but sitting in lane and fighting with the enemy, which is a necessary part of the game anyway. It winds up creating more diversity in the game--possibly counterintuitively--by ensuring that low scaling champs have a place.

While I will agree that supports should be able to do damage if they want to build for it, I don't think the solution is to wildly increase gold generation. Support champs probably shouldn't be buying Luden's for example. What I think should happen is that support items like Twin Shadows, Frost Fang line, etc. should give more AP. Supports should be able to do respectable damage, but should never approach what their mid laner can put out.

And, believe it or not, you can still build those items. It takes longer, but it's not that hard to have one finished in mid game. Zhonya's is always my third item (after boots and sight stone) when I do Morgana support. Just don't blame me if your ADC bitches that your Luden's procs take his cs.

only zhule1 votes

I feel that your comments give off the aura that you view supports in a very poor light. "doing nothing but sitting in lane and fighting with the enemy" this makes it sound like you think the support role really does nothing for the first half of the game but sit around and leech gold/exp with the rare attempt to help their ally secure a kill.

Dalthine1 votes

No, in fact I play support more often than anything. Check my history if you like. I do bot games for first win, but I support in almost all of my pvp games. Lately I have been trying to learn Tahm as I find him extremely fun.

But you're also not farming, and not doing anything that focuses on making gold as a support. You're not csing or killing jungle creeps. I do not consider the contribution of a support anything less than the other members of a team, but you are never actively trying to make gold as one, either. That is what I meant. Your focus is entirely on the enemy, not side tasks to make gold.

Also, ad hominem.

M Dragon141 votes

Idk man. Just sounds like you want to put ap mid laners in the bot lane. That would make utility based supports obsolete. A support does not need item 3174. They got item 3028 -> item 3222. And they DO NOT need to be able to build damage items...... They already have tons of utility.... Hell, if a support can get ahead bot, they can build luden's or lichbane without extra gold income.... And as for item 3050, making it easier to get that would just be plain bad. It's already borderline OP for many ADC's.... Getting that item even earlier would be just bad balance.

There's a reason why supports have the income they have now. If they got more, they would just be a second midlane carry, without having to farm or really do anything.

only zhule1 votes

{quoted}

Idk man. Just sounds like you want to put ap mid laners in the bot lane. That would make utility based supports obsolete. A support does not need item 3174. They got item 3028 -> item 3222. And they DO NOT need to be able to build damage items...... They already have tons of utility.... Hell, if a support can get ahead bot, they can build luden's or lichbane without extra gold income.... And as for item 3050, making it easier to get that would just be plain bad. It's already borderline OP for many ADC's.... Getting that item even earlier would be just bad balance.

There's a reason why supports have the income they have now. If they got more, they would just be a second midlane carry, without having to farm or really do anything.

The issue stems heavily from playing Sona a lot (you know that champion that basically wants to be built like an AP mid but Riot has decided that's not what they want from her... but they will be damned if they give her decent utility numbers to compensate for it). Never really taken a shine to item 3222, it's rare my ADC get's caught out in a way where i can pop that to save them where they would have died otherwise. Some what the same idea for item 3504 it should be amazing on her, but it just feels weak and unneeded compared to other choices.

worlds adrift1 votes

item 2049can build intoitem 2045 and it gives you 400 health. Maybe a buff to the health, but other than that having wards late game is still a great thing to have. I would agree to a buff to the health but other than that I think that the current sightstone is good. HOWEVER, Income for support does need to be increased. I am always behind in gold as a support, and even FARTHER behind if we're losing lane. Now, I know that if you are losing lane then you are obviously going to be behind in gold but as a support you're behind even MORE. Maybe buff the gold income items or something. But PLEASE fix it rito.

Vogie9 votes

The ruby sightstone could have time-scaling health, similar to Rod of Ages

Personally, I think there should be more variations on the sightstone:

  1. The Mandrake Ward, with a higher cap than other types of stealth wards
  2. a Thresh-themed one that has one that recharges on kills/assists
  3. a Crystal Scar-themed one that can convert wards rather than destroy them
  4. a Return of Heart of Gold, that generates gold for wards on the ground
  5. a Discount-Card style option, that makes other support items combination cost cheaper
Ace Access 2 votes

make it give 10 armor and MR at lvl 1 and scales to 45 Armor and MR at lvl 18

Red Ryu2 votes

Not really, upgrading sight stone into ruby isn't worth it over going for other health items unless you have nothing else to do.

250 health + 1 extra ward isn't worth it over spending the 800 gold elsewhere.

Gregor Gysi1 votes

Do you remember season4? Please don't. Just don't.

only zhule2 votes

{quoted}

Do you remember season4? Please don't. Just don't.

I remember season 4. Still think a boost to gold income for supports would be helpful.

I think people misunderstand my concept of a gold boost. I'm not talking about making the items/ masteries generate an additional 100 gold a min. I'm not talking about boosts that turn the tanky supports into immovable brick walls, or the utility supports into endless mana pooled monsters. I'm taking something like a 10-20% increase in gold over the course of the game. Something that will put supports roughly on par with the other roles gold income wise. Or at the very least something that feels more rewarding then having to commit your first item bought to something as passively underwhelming as sight stone.

Gregor Gysi3 votes

[{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EJu0UiJo,comment-id=00110000,timestamp=2015-09-08T16:46:00.805+0000)

I remember season 4. Still think a boost to gold income for supports would be helpful.

I think people misunderstand my concept of a gold boost. I'm not talking about making the items/ masteries generate an additional 100 gold a min. I'm not talking about boosts that turn the tanky supports into immovable brick walls, or the utility supports into endless mana pooled monsters. I'm taking something like a 10-20% increase in gold over the course of the game. Something that will put supports roughly on par with the other roles gold income wise. Or at the very least something that feels more rewarding then having to commit your first item bought to something as passively underwhelming as sight stone.

And that's exactly what Rito did in season 4. And guess what, everyone played Annie, Lulu (she had better scalings), Morgana and the like. Supports practically oneshotted the AD's all the time (because a APC with 'roughly on par with the other roles gold income wise) simply shits on the ADC. Goddamn, that was boring af and I don't want it back. All supports have a kit that makes up for not having a lot of gold. They don't need to be stronger and if they did then they should get buffed one by one rather than making such a reactionary change whose side effects kill the game. Also sightstone is pretty overwhelming and if it were better statwise every toplaner would get it. And vision is already easily accessible enough.

only zhule1 votes

{quoted}

And that's exactly what Rito did in season 4. And guess what, everyone played Annie, Lulu (she had better scalings), Morgana and the like. Supports practically oneshotted the AD's all the time (because a APC with 'roughly on par with the other roles gold income wise) simply shits on the ADC. Goddamn, that was boring af and I don't want it back. All supports have a kit that makes up for not having a lot of gold. They don't need to be stronger and if they did then they should get buffed one by one rather than making such a reactionary change whose side effects kill the game. Also sightstone is pretty overwhelming and if it were better statwise every toplaner would get it. And vision is already easily accessible enough.

I would love nothing more then for another lane/role to constantly have sightstone as well. it would be magical not to be expected to self ward Baron, Dragon, 3 different bushes, and at least one blue and red buff area at all times.

Not all champions are tuned to low income kits. Look at someone like Sona, if you want reliable poke you are looking to be dropping some pretty hefty gold. Even if you go the "cheaper" route and get mostly aura defense items you basically become a walking ultimate and a slightly more heavy bullet sponge (which i great if your opponents keep focusing you instead of your team mates over and over again.)

Gregor Gysi1 votes

[{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EJu0UiJo,comment-id=0011000000000000,timestamp=2015-09-08T21:47:18.272+0000)

I would love nothing more then for another lane/role to constantly have sightstone as well. it would be magical not to be expected to self ward Baron, Dragon, 3 different bushes, and at least one blue and red buff area at all times.

Not all champions are tuned to low income kits. Look at someone like Sona, if you want reliable poke you are looking to be dropping some pretty hefty gold. Even if you go the "cheaper" route and get mostly aura defense items you basically become a walking ultimate and a slightly more heavy bullet sponge (which i great if your opponents keep focusing you instead of your team mates over and over again.)

The problem is not that we don't have enough warding possibilities. It is that players don't use them. If Riot would actually buff Sightstone so that Top also gets Sightstone then we'd have 3 sightstones per team in proplay and still 1 sightstone per team + maybe 1 sighstone that is rarely used below dia. Let's face it, people don't use free wards to their fullest potential now and they certainly won't with a new sightstone. However having even more wards is going to have a huge impact on how important the vision war is - at proplay. Seeing how important it is already is that change is unasked for.

Well if I look at Sona from the position of a lowranged ADC I see some support that friggin hurts - and I do quite often see a Sona support bursting a 60% ADC. Also you become a warding, healing, shielding, exhausting, Mikaeling, shotcalling, locketusing, engaging and disengaging Sona. No, as a Support I never feel like I kinda have nothing to do after using my ult. Oh, except for Taric Q, but well he is going to get a rework. Support is a role that has enough impact - yes, even in soloQ. EUW no1 has been a support main for quite a while now after all.

E: but all that is not my main point. As I said, even if supports would have to little impact they'd need buffs to their base power more than gold. More gold -> more burst supports. The supportive supports won't profit, actually they'd simply be underpowered. Then we'd need to buff them/nerf the scaling supports like Annie (OH hello dejavous! season 4..) which would be quite a mess. Or alternatively we could just have the support gold reservoire stay the same and adjust them how they need it.

Troy2426211 votes

Careful about buffing Sightstone. I buy that on a lot of my junglers, it won't JUST affect supports.

Zavern1 votes

There used to be a mastery that gave more gold on assists before the mastery change. I can't remember how much it was, but it made a difference.

only zhule1 votes

{quoted}

There used to be a mastery that gave more gold on assists before the mastery change. I can't remember how much it was, but it made a difference.

I think that is kind of one of my issues with support. So much of your gold is tied up with assists. If you aren't there to pick up the assist, or you get focused down first, you fall behind faster and faster. Fall to far behind and the game basically becomes a 4v5 even if everyone is still playing.

siilentdeath1 votes

supports dont need more gold. people who say they are going support role need to pick support suitable champions. right now in bronze there is the "any champion is a support champion" thing happening. i had a Warwick the other night.to make it worse they wouldnt even consider buying wards or upgrading the trinket. also had a Karthus earlier this season . who only stole my kills saying "sorry since i cant cs i need the gold". end of the day people need to play supports in the support spot. no more of this xin or olaf support BS!

Xakinos1 votes

I think something interesting they could do with sightstone is add in a counter that keeps track of the total time your wards have been up. So one ward up for 60 sec counts for...60 seconds, 2 wards up for 60 seconds counts for 120 secs etc. Then you get small tiered bonuses for getting to certain amounts of time. First bonus could be something like sightstone wards gain 10% vision radius, second could be a reduced cd on your trinket, third could be a choosable stat bonus of some kind at the store. Or whatever is seen as fair and fitting for a support.

Something along these lines where you can't just pick it up and trade gold for additional power so it stays out of the hands of other roles (it being desirable for it's stats has resulted in nerfs somewhere along the line as I recall) and you're rewarded keeping vision up.

More from Gameplay

More by only zhule