Boards›Gameplay

Stashu vs. Meddler. You did it. I am confused now.

Kowe The Ewok··6 votes·402 views

So, with the recent statement of Meddler about HoT (healing over time) I am complete thrown off. To sum it off: HoT spells are not viable due to the bursty nature of League of Legends fights.

On the other hand we have Riot Stashu calling out DoT spells to be overpowered when having similiar values to burst spells even though the damage is delayed, due to being less predictable .

To me these two statements seem horribly contradicting. How can HoT not viable due to the bursty nature of the game, yet DoTs are considered so overpowered that a spell which once had a 0.9 (then 0.8) ratios gets gutted down to 0.35 (After 2 month "up" to 0.45) just because it's a DoT?

Wouldn't the same logic apply to HoTs as it does to DoTs? If burst is so valuable (Meddler's point), why are DoTs getting gutted and not the opposite?

Meddler: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/mqm2tTXA-are-heal-over-time-effects-still-not-permitted-for-champion-design?comment=0001

Stashu: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/gFME3v51-on-the-future-of-cassiopeia-also-some-background

11 Comments

Dar Raksada2 votes

Good point, while I disagree that dots are stronger than burst (quite the opposite, up until a certain point but dots never reach that point anyway). I'll try to explain what I think is the reasoning. It probably has to do with damage over time feeling "unfair" because you disengage/flash away with 10 hp and you still die (see it often when people play vs fizz) while burst is straight up and has a scare factor (oh shit, got bursted to 10% hp, better run) making it "easier" to kill people with dots. While hots being unviable because of the bursty nature is pretty spot in, clutch heals are great in teamfights and equal in lane sustain (unless hots get tuned to be stronger, like dots should, but they still lack the clutch heal)

I disagree with the explanation I gave, but it's probably their line of thinking.

Meep Man2 votes

I find it the opposite actually. Excluding summoner 14 , DoTs give you time to react and perform any possible defensive spells or summoner spells you have such as summoner 7 or summoner 21 . I mean, summoner 1 even causes summoner 14 to be removed from the caster so all DoTs give you time to react some burst can bring you 100-0 without much or any reaction time.

Kowe The Ewok1 votes

On a sidenote: QSS removes DoTs.

Kingsgrave1 votes

Honestly both are equally bad because its hard to realize the effects of either unless they are massive.

"Healing over time" is basically just massive regen like Mundo, Volibear and Garen anyway.

The DoT characters are also rather unpopular and usually not really cared for by pros. Swain and Malz being prime examples of this.

Sailor Mint1 votes

Healing and damage are two completely different animals.

With the lack of dispel mechanics, DoTs are effectively a **guaranteed **amount damage over their duration. They require no interaction beyond initial application and will continue to deal damage regardless of positioning and even after the caster dies. The only major difference between a direct damage spell and DoT is that you have a longer window to shield or heal through them. Too much damage on a low risk spell is not a good idea, they're hard to track for both the caster and their opponent (clarity) and to be completely honest, it doesn't feel great to die to DoTs after outplaying someone.

tl;dr: They don't kill people fast enough to appreciate, and seemingly always deal too much damage for how little gameplay they offer.

As for HoTs. Health Regen is not a combat stat. You either get a spell that is so weak that it doesn't feel like it's saving anyone when it matters, or you get the super massive healing cooldown (i.e.: Mundo's Ultimate) that either forces a target swap or just get brute forced through.

What are the benefit of HoTs instead of direct heals (outside of added counterplay and clunkiness)?

  • If you want damage prevention, shields and damage reduction spells are better.
  • If you want reactive healing, strong direct heals are the best option.
  • HoTs are only strong against medium-small amounts of sustained damage over a long duration.
  • Healing is only meaningful until your target's health reaches zero.

HoTs work in PvE because you know when damage is coming and you don't necessarily have the option to direct heal everyone. Healing over time spells require time to be effective, a luxury you don't have in a world where people die in 2-3 seconds and teamfights are done in 10 sec.

Resto druids all HoT kit worked because they still had some direct heal spells (i.e.: Swiftmend) and because they weren't the only healers in the raid. In a PvP setting, they were considered mediocre in larger settings.

Kowe The Ewok1 votes

DoTs can be shielded, while a burst can only be healed. Thus DoTs are far less guaranteed than burst.

Sailor Mint1 votes

If you have strong enough mechanics, you can shield everything preemptively. And as long as you survive through the initial burst, it can be healed.

Heals over time are wasted when cast preemptively and don't don't do very well against burst (assassins) or high sustained damage (ADCs).

Being able to heal 1200 damage over 10 seconds is really not very useful when you die in less than 3 seconds.

SmokingPuffin1 votes

I feel like you misread the quotes.

To sum it off: HoT spells are not viable due to the bursty nature of League of Legends fights.

It's not that you can't design a viable HoT, it's that a viable HoT isn't any fun to play with. A balanced HoT spell would be amazing in lane and useless in teamfights, and I don't see any reason why you'd want such a thing in game.

How can HoT not viable due to the bursty nature of the game, yet DoTs are considered so overpowered that a spell which once had a 0.9 (then 0.8) ratios gets gutted down to 0.35 (After 2 month "up" to 0.45) just because it's a DoT?

Stashu didn't claim anything like this. He decided that Cassiopeia's original kit wasn't distinctive, and overlapped with many other kits like Swain, Malz, and Brand. To resolve this, he pushed Cassiopeia into the unique role of being a sustained single target damage mage, which is why E became stronger and Q became weaker in the rework.

You can dislike this design direction, but try to address it directly rather than putting words in the guy's mouth.

Wouldn't the same logic apply to HoTs as it does to DoTs? If burst is so valuable (Meddler's point), why are DoTs getting gutted and not the opposite?

Both Meddler and Stashu are talking about how DoT/HoT mechanics aren't very readable and feel less impactful, for a given level of strength, than they really are. Formally, the ratio of player satisfaction to power level is lower with oT effects than burst effects.

MrSlowDie1 votes

Why having a HoT is a bad idea? it's okay to have support that can save your team when behind and poked under tower :/

plz Rito

Rebonack1 votes

Oh geeze this topic again. And as usual some people still think DoTs are hella OP (because they are morons).

Fine, let's use an extreme example.

You've got two Ults, both with a three minute cooldown and the same range. One deals an instant 5k damage nuke. The other deals a 5k damage DoT that ticks over two minutes.

Which of these abilities is more powerful?

The only reason DoTs ever seem off is because they can kill you after you thought you got away. If you had been hit by a nuke of equal power you would already be dead. DoTs can be a little more difficult to gauge whether you should keep fighting or book it. That is a strength, but that strength is mitigated by the fact that DoTs are easier to heal/shield than getting instantly blown up is.

That, and QSS removes all debuffs, including DoTs. Sorry Mord.

Kowe The Ewok1 votes

Actually I don't think DoTs are op. I think they are overnerfed, I just stated Riot Stashu's position as well as Medler. I don't identify with Stashu's point of view.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Kowe The Ewok

Add a loading screen teamchat.
Gameplay68 comments
231
votes
A jungler's perspective: How I picture the S5 Jungle developement went
Gameplay73 comments
119
votes
Why did you gut junglers?
Gameplay132 comments
102
votes
Be fair Riot. Give Lissandra the same mana regen you gave all casters.
Gameplay41 comments
99
votes
Riot. Trailblazer is NOT the problem.
Gameplay74 comments
95
votes
ADC vs DPS Mages
Gameplay148 comments
91
votes