Riot. Trailblazer is NOT the problem.

Kowe The Ewok·Nov 26, 2014·95 votes·12,431 views

**The problem is that jungle sustain is underwhelming. **Especially for ability/mana dependant jungler. With the increased health you're using more abilities than before with worse manaregen (Blue buff nerf). This leads to a situation where many champions (Hecarim..Sejuani..) have absolutely no choice which Smite to take. I'ld take Stalker's Blade over Trailblazer at any point of time with Hecarim if it didn't mean that I'ld either have to build a God damn chalice or go back to base after each 2nd camp.

Trailblazer is not popular because it is overpowered. It's being taken so often because without it the list of usable jungler could be counted on one hand...From sobody who lost a finger or two...

You have to do something about Hunter's Machete if you nerf Trailblazer. You already destroyed the competitiveness of many mana using junglers. Stop the gutting.

74 Comments

Bears Dont CareNov 26, 201450 votes

Forever shall the reign of Lee sin continue.

Knight DevoutNov 26, 201410 votes

Which, btw, thanks to Iron Will lifesteal and his passive can also afford stalker blade, gaining yet more utility in his ganks.

DadimPregnantNov 26, 20143 votes

watching the same champ picked every single tournament game makes them money.... DUHHH l2business scrub.

i mean even if we saw a diversity of junglers none of the new players would ever think them viable and perhaps purchase the champ and a skin. it doesnt make sense, people don't do that. there is NEVER a surge in popularity of certain champs based on tournament play... NEVER. so it couldn't possibly be a money making opportunity to see any but the same 3 champs over and over.

silly nub.

EvilRabbittNov 27, 20142 votes

Jungle Jinx. Resurrected. Play in style O_O, buy the mafia skin.

Salt Miner 49 ErNov 26, 201419 votes

I'm not going to lie, seeing Warwick with item 3718 leaves me a wee bit more scared than Lee Sin at the current moment. It's 352 bonus true damage at level 18 for 5 hits on Infinite Duress.

DUDE BRONov 27, 201411 votes

"We wanted more jungle diversity, so we made the jungle 2x harder and removed all sustain from jungle items" So by doing that, now even less junglers are viable, so we have even LESS diversity. We'll be seeing a lot more Warwick and LeeSin

Dominick DestineNov 27, 20146 votes

"We wanted more jungle diversity, so we made the jungle 2x harder and removed all sustain from jungle items" So by doing that, now even less junglers are viable, so we have even LESS diversity. We'll be seeing a lot more and

This.

The jungle changes raped characters like Evelynn and Sejuani... basically any non sustain character gets ravaged due to no-sustain items anymore. If Trailblazer is nerfed, tha twill decrease jungle diversity even more.

Chaotic ReksNov 27, 20141 votes

what about Trundle

Franco SanchezNov 27, 20142 votes

Or these? Udyr Chogath Zac Olaf

MegaCandyhawkNov 28, 20141 votes

I think Khazix is still very viable

Potato DocNov 28, 20141 votes

Or you know MasterYi or Pantheon and other champions previously mentioned who can take dragon solo by 6 mins

ArknaNov 27, 20142 votes

Forever shall the reign of Lee sin continue.

The irony is that Lee has never been weaker. Early ganks are harder and riskier, (tons of vision out early still, extremely predictable jungle routes, camps are harder so you can't gank nearly as often) and Lee's midgame isn't anything to write home about, and his lategame is even worse.

Knight DevoutNov 26, 20147 votes

Blasting Smite is fine in my opinion, but if it should be nerfed, it's not the smite cd. Blasting Smite should be nerfed on the AoE, and here's why. Ranger's Trailblazer and Blasting Smite where supposed to be the item of choice of tanky junglers who have problem with their mana sustain without spirit stone. Most of them already have AoE. Amumu Chogath Nautilus Sejuani Shyvana Zac Volibear

This means the AoE from blasting smite is mostly overkill on junglers who are the supposed target of the item, but really useful on champions who lack AoE because they are more strong as duelist, like Lee Sin and Elise.

If Blasting Smite had a lower damage on his AoE, it would affect those who pick it for faster clears but still be strong for tanky jungler. This way those tanks don't lose 25% of their sustain from the item due to increased cooldowns.

LSANov 26, 20149 votes

Blasting Smite is fine in my opinion, but if it should be nerfed, it's not the smite cd. Blasting Smite should be nerfed on the AoE, and here's why. Ranger's Trailblazer and Blasting Smite where supposed to be the item of choice of tanky junglers who have problem with their mana sustain without spirit stone. Most of them already have AoE.

And oddly enough, four of those champs on that list have shit clears, and I'm sure you can guess who I'm talking about. The AoE is fine and should stay how it is.

Knight DevoutNov 26, 20144 votes

But if you nerf the cd you affect them even more.

Kowe The EwokNov 26, 20146 votes

Doesn't that simply mean that the open post is correct and Trailblazer is fine and the reason why it it's being overused lies somewhere else? (Worse mana sustain and more required mana / camp)

You're making this about how it should be nerfed rather than whether it should be nerfed. At least to me the whether feels more important.

Knight DevoutNov 26, 20145 votes

Of course the Opening post is fine, but since Riot is going to nerf it anyway , it should be better if they dealt with it in the best possible way, hitting fighters and duelist junglers more than tanks.

Remlap1223Nov 26, 20146 votes

I liked the idea behind new jungle, but outside of the cool new buffs and an anti early game stance, tank jungles have become 100% useless. The high damage carry jungles aren't completely unaffected either, but it did nothing to promote jungle diversity. S4: Early game damage/carry jungles. S5: High sustain duelist jungles. And guess who's still bottom of the barrel? The tanks.

XenohazNov 26, 20142 votes

I don't know if that's 100% true. Results may vary, but I've had pretty good results with Rammus in this new jungle. I know he wasn't exactly weak to begin with, but he is a tank.

Remlap1223Nov 26, 20141 votes

Not exactly. Ok, yes, hes a tank, he has the highest defensive stats in the game. The thing about Rammus was that he doesn't "tank"early game. He's meant to be a high sustain fighter who uses high armor instead of AD and lifesteal to wreck face in the jungle. The tanks like Sejuani and Nautilus use heavy waveclear. The idea is to sit in jungle and slowly powerfarm, while Rammy relies on early scary ganks. I consider Rammus more of a hyper bruiser than a tank, since his only AOE is his ultimate, and 9/10 times your powerball is only going to hit one enemy.

RiotMorelloNov 27, 201410 votes

Rammus is a tank as much as the other two, and Nautilus' contribution is ganks too. Their ability to jungle is too weak.

I want to focus on how to make them able to jungle, since a tank should be contributing ganks more than not.

Kowe The EwokNov 27, 20149 votes

That's good news. But what's your position on Hunter's machete if I may ask?

Ask stated in my open post I fell that the combination of higher monster health (= more abilities needed to clear them) and worsened mana sustain ESPECIALLY hurts tank jungler - and those who have relatively high mana costs to begin with, while others (like Lee Sin or Rengar) can enjoy the full power of Stalker's Blade or Skirmisher's. Many junglers had a significant drop in viability and are barely keeping themselves over water by using Trailblazer -not strategical for buffs - but on cooldown to gets their clears done.

I've been experimenting with Mana Regen Runes to overcome this, however the investment needed is insane and teh result stays the same: Manaless junglers will simply destroy you since they don't have to make similiar sacrifices.

Not to mention that with the nerfed magic resist items especially tanky junglers cannot afford to give up their rune slots.

iainB85Nov 27, 20146 votes

Rammus is a tank as much as the other two, and Nautilus' contribution is ganks too. Their ability to jungle is too weak.

I want to focus on how to make them able to jungle, since a tank should be contributing ganks more than not.

Morello,

It's a little hard to judge your intentions with the new jungle changes.

The different smites seem like a good idea in general -- they support some more variety in play styles for the jungle.

However taking away so much sustain from the jungle (both health and mana) and making them hit harder has REALLY limited the pool of viable jungles compared to S4. Seems like a HUGE step backwards in jungle diversity.

Care to comment?

GavranNov 28, 20141 votes

It's simple: Riot's intention wasn't to increase jungle diversity by making it so any champion can be a jungler, it was to implement ways different types of junglers could be sucessful.

Mind, they do want champions like Sejuani and Nautilus to be able to jungle. Or they seem to. But the goal of the new jungle was to balance farm-gank-clear fast-counter jungle type situations. Not to make more champions junglers. They specifically wanted less champions jungling. (And frankly, I kind of agree. Stuff like Vel'Koz jungle just doesn't feel right to me.)

Linna ExcelNov 27, 20141 votes

How can a tank contribute in a gank without CC?

In short they can't very well. Tanking is generally broken in PvP because smart players will avoid tanks who aren't a threat and if the tank is a threat, he's probably broken on the OP side of things.

I'm not sure tanks should exist in PvP games. IRL a tank (or a battleship) has a BFG to go with the heavy armor... they exist to pound other tanks. That makes me think that'd it'd be kind of cool to see tanks as champs with high defenses, lower damage numbers, but really high armor pen. IE big guys that are designed to beat up the other team's big guy.

Maybe force tank players to decide between a CC/initiation tank or an armor piercing linebacker tank.

NarasimhaNov 27, 20145 votes

The term 'tanking' stems from traditional RPGS, characters that existed to take on the brunt force of enemy units, usually mobs or bosses.These characters did so through virtue of high crowd control, either area stuns or more often taunts. They were called tanks, because like their real coutnerparts, they were heavily armoed brutes that served to draw enemy fire. This rolled over into many online rpgs. Tanks became prevalent in PvP scenarios because of their ability to synergize with other classes. Stun an enemy, so an allied rogue can go for the easy backstab. Taunt their team while your healer keep you alive, forcing them to waste their damage. Naturally, such a character can't have any form of great damage, since that would remove any drawback they had at all. Why would they need high DPS characters to help them if they could already have damage that pierces a boss's or enemy's armor?

AuroramancerNov 27, 20142 votes

Do you have any plans on having Hecarim's Spirit of Dread heal cap vs monsters scale with level instead of rank?

QuephaNov 27, 20142 votes

but it sounds like the balance team is looking to nerf trailblazer so people will take other options, and it feels like that's the only thing keeping tank junglers in the jungle

Khell DarkWolfNov 27, 20142 votes

Rammus is a tank as much as the other two, and Nautilus' contribution is ganks too. Their ability to jungle is too weak.

I want to focus on how to make them able to jungle, since a tank should be contributing ganks more than not.

Mana gate sustain is an issue on its own as is health sustain.

Because junglers (or even tank junglers) that rely on using abilities consistently with their mana need a way to help teeter the mana pool a little better.

I don't have an example for this one but for a jungler that doesn't use their abilties to clear the jungle mainly, then they have to tackle their health sustain issue.

So since we have this new enchantment pseudo create your own item for the jungle item, what if the enchantment tree extended larger in its building paths?

I'm not talking about trail blazer (among 4 first paths) into devourer (among the tier 2 paths of four other enchantments) to become an entire whole item.

I mean, what about a type of slotted enchantments that the player can pick up in the form of passive and/or small stats?

example: I buy rangers trail blazer, then I can pick an enchantment of my choosing like say "Damage received from/dealt to monsters is converted to mana" for a cheapy price of like a 100g?

Cause it is supposed to only be paying for an additional passive.

And it can be brought both ways, before final enchantments like purchasing devourer or before you make that tier 2 jungle item.

Then later as time goes on and I get the gold, since early clearing wasn't as painful I can still get my tier two enchantment jungle item finished with my passive perk I chose.

This could be candidate for letting players pick old spirit stone sustain passive, quill coat thorny mail, quill coat's/wriggles/ancient golem's ward active and maybe even other experimental perks directed at early jungler issues that players can further tailor to their playstyle and jungler of choice.

EDIT:

basically, the new jungle items alter the function of how smite works and come with a passive.

Perk Enchantments can be bought and still stay along for the ride as they function as a means of tailoring the function of how your clearing problems are affecting you.

Remlap1223Nov 27, 20141 votes

Maybe I was a little confusing. What I guess I meant to say is out of the tank jungles, Rammus is weird. I think most of the reason why is the fact that he's actually one of the only successful ones. And for some reason, he seems to fit more along the lines of a sticky duelist rather than just a rampaging minotaur if you catch my drift. I guess what I'm saying is, what are we going to do to make the tank jungles on par with their carry peers, or at least on par with Rammus?

Gear KittyNov 27, 20142 votes

He's successful because of:

Speed (Skarner wishes he could go this fast, Hecarim is almost close but he has to come from the right direction or he ends up saving his target instead)
CC (Naut and Sej have more lockdown, but they require skill shots or auto attacks, and are on longer cooldowns)
Jungle Mana sustain (He doesn't clear fast, but Q into a camp and W while fighting it means you earn back more mana than what you used to kill them, net positive. Naut and Sej can't pull that off).

I haven't played a good match against a Lee yet, because he gets to buy the CD and Armor Pen jungle item and I'm stuck still relying on Ranger's, and with the changes tanks lost out on the armor they got for buying SotAG.

LordOfTheLeagueDec 4, 20141 votes

For nautilus, have you tried a form of his Titan wrath (W) with a hightly reduced cd but with reduced effect ? Something like : Titan's Wrath COST: 20 MANA COOLDOWN: 5 ACTIVE: Nautilus gains a shield that absorbs damage. The shield lasts up to 5 seconds. SHIELD STRENGTH: 60 / 100 / 140 / 180 / 240 (+ 15% bonus health) Nautilus's next 3 basic attacks apply a debuff to all enemies within 175 range of his target, dealing bonus magic damage over 2 seconds. Titan's Wrath resets Nautilus' basic attack timer when cast. MAGIC DAMAGE: 40 / 55 / 70 / 85 / 100 (+ 40% AP)

Ofc the numbers are wrong but just an idea.

Hot ToddyNov 26, 20143 votes

I find tanks are still good. Like look at Amumu and Volibear

SmokingPuffinNov 26, 20143 votes

I'm pretty sure Ranger's is the problem. It does too many things:

Reduced cooldown
AoE damage
AoE stun
regenerates health
regenerates mana

That's so many effects! It means that trying to come up with buffs for Poacher's is pretty difficult. Regenerating hp on kill sounds pretty useful for a counterjungler. A smite that kills the camp faster sounds pretty good too. Can't do either of those things, though, because Ranger's already has them and effects should be unique.

FyshinaTuxNov 26, 20141 votes

Reduced cooldown

Could possibly be gotten rid of, but would hurt the tanky junglers that have issues as it is.

AoE damage

Most tanky junglers with AoE have rather bad clear times...

AoE stun

I find it funny that I can take a squishy/high damage jungler into the jungle, and come out after a full clear with better health than a tanky jungler... The stun helps to mitigate damage, and keeps the tanky junglers healthy.

regenerates health

See: *AoE stun

regenerates mana

See: *AoE stun

SmokingPuffinNov 26, 20142 votes

I find it funny that I can take a squishy/high damage jungler into the jungle, and come out after a full clear with better health than a tanky jungler... The stun helps to mitigate damage, and keeps the tanky junglers healthy.

All the stuff you mentioned as helping tanky junglers does help them. It just helps high damage junglers more.

In particular, an AoE stun matters more the higher your damage output, and matters less the tankier you are. That's the last design you want to use if you want to help tanky junglers relative to damage junglers.

FyshinaTuxNov 26, 20141 votes

You're absolutely right, there's no way to help the tank junglers without helping the high damage junglers... THAT, is the issue.

KzooCrasherNov 26, 20142 votes

Sir I don't think its the jungle I think its you.... I played Heca a few times yesterday and my clears are amazing with the stalkers jungle item. I took most the blues but I never had mana trouble. My clears were so easy I finished a full triforce before enchanting the jungle item. His very first clear got me low after 5 camps but that's pretty good really.

Knight DevoutNov 26, 201410 votes

"I took most of the blue" Eh, good luck doing that without the midlaner throwing a tantrum and telling it's your fault if he loses the lane.

No jungler has mana problems with blue.

KzooCrasherNov 26, 20142 votes

That is the point. You control jungle buffs I was 7-1-7 at one point I was doing a lot more with blue so I kept taking it. When I mid if I get a blue I'm greatful but I never make a stink and most mids that need blue build a Grail anyway. If your not comfortable with taking a few blues a really manager intensive jungle maybe isn't for you.

BetaDude40Nov 26, 20147 votes

So, you are saying that in order to be a competent jungler, you HAVE to counter-jungle. There is no physical way you can keep the blue buff on for so long, and there is also no way you can have mana problems without blue or other mana items.

Also, manager-intensive jungler somehow equals a jungler that has to take blue all the time? What do you think manager-intensive means, sir?

EDIT: out of curiosity, I checked your match history over the 2 most recent days. You said you went 7/1/7, but according to LoLKing, you went 11/11/18 first game (which was a loss) and 5/5/25 the next game (which was a win). I don't have a problem with those scores, I mean you went even and had lots of assists, but don't say you went 7/1/7 a few days ago when, according to this, you didn't.

Knight DevoutNov 26, 20145 votes

And if you are 7/1/7 you can also win building Zhonya on Sejuani. I know because I tried. In a common scenario, where early game you go 3/0/3 AT BEST (and the game should be already won at that point), you still cannot ditch the trailblazer on heca without going OOM unless you take blue.

"Sorry Ahri, you can't have blue because I'm 3/0." [All]:9x report this jungler please".

Battlecast SonaNov 26, 20143 votes

Just so you're aware, a jungler taking blue buff is not a bannable offense. So even at 9x reports, as long as you're not being toxic, you won't get banned. It's the jungler's choice when blue should go to mid, not mid's choice. I regularly play games as a mid laner where I don't take blue buff at all unless my jungler is manaless - I'd rather them get the exp and clear advantage so they can participate in the game sooner than have some mana regen in lane - I just manage my mana properly.

Knight DevoutNov 26, 20142 votes

True that, but if you are in a even match-up, blue can help tilt the balance. Denying it to the midlaner to farm involves risking to lose midlane.

JakethenightNov 27, 20142 votes

What do you think manager-intensive means, sir?

The only definition I can come up with for manager-intensive is a jungler who goes into task manager every game to close Lolclient.exe. :3

BetaDude40Nov 27, 20141 votes

My god, that truth hurts so much ;_;

(QQ's endlessly)

I amend thee

DadimPregnantNov 26, 20142 votes

this is mostly an issue with rune pages i beleive. i understand we all want to keep our old ones, but if you tweak them to be what you need to sustain the jungle, as opposed to having just your reds/quints be what you need... you will be much much better off.

need mana? swap out ur blues, adjust what you buy. everyone used to have either cdr and MR on blues or just MR, which we know isnt for jungling, but for ganking and fighting, im pretty sure RITO wants you to make rune pages for jungling that are fully for it, or suffer early to perform better late.

IMO it was kinda dumb that very few champs only needed quints/reds for jungling, and blue diversity was near 0 unless you were min/max a certain mid or top lane champ, or taking some CDR for ur GODYR for example. almost everyone took MR in the blue slot regardless of lane opponent or team comp scenario.

Sightless66Nov 26, 20145 votes

im pretty sure RITO wants you to make rune pages for jungling that are fully for it,

No they don't. Riot has said that they don't want specific rune pages to be the determining factor in whether or not a champion is playable. They made this very clear back when they reworked runes, and also when they reworked Akali to remove her reliance on a specific Akali rune page. Another Rioter (Meddler I think) has said that they don't want to modify runes much because it would force people to change their rune pages, which is not something they want to do.

I do not have other runes, I do not want other runes, and if certain runes are the only way large classes of champions can be viable in the jungle, there is a major design problem that should be fixed. Runes are the worst balance point of the game. If they are ever a central point of balance, that indicates a problem.

Hyrum GraffNov 26, 20144 votes

+1 to this. If I remember correctly, basically the rune system right now isn't very interesting; it's a boring IP sink. If you need different rune pages, in order for different champs to be viable, it becomes an even BIGGER IP sink, which they don't want.

GavranNov 28, 20141 votes

They're against different rune pages for each champion, or champions that need a unique page to work. That doesn't mean they're against "jungle" rune pages, and not that those need to change to fit the new jungle.