Be fair Riot. Give Lissandra the same mana regen you gave all casters.

Kowe The Ewok·Nov 22, 2014·99 votes·5,548 views

Taken from the patch notes:

The following mages / tank supports are being changed to have 6 base mana regeneration (mp5) and +0.8 mana regeneration (mp5) growth stat: Ahri, Alistar, Anivia, Annie, Azir, Blitzcrank, Braum, Cassiopeia, Diana, Elise, Fiddlesticks, Fizz, Galio, Gragas, Heimerdinger, Jayce, Karma, Karthus, Kassadin, Kayle, LeBlanc, Leona, Lulu, Lux, Malzahar, Morgana, Nidalee, Orianna, Ryze, Swain, Syndra, Taric, Thresh, Twisted Fate, Veigar, Vel'koz, Viktor, Xerath, Ziggs, Zilean, Zyra

Lissandra still has 5.67 (+0.4) instead of 6 +0.8.

Why is Lissandra being penalized for her passive? Why doesn't Lee get reduced attackspeed because of his passive? Or Rengar reduced Flash range? (Note: These two above sentences are a joke. Showing how hilarious excluding Lissandra from the mage buff is)

Riot, why do you hate Lissandra?

41 Comments

webhippoNov 22, 201441 votes

I think their reasoning was because of her passive giving her a manaless spell every 15 seconds or so. But if you ask me, that reasoning is flawed because Xerath and Veigar have the new mana stats but their passives also gives them mana boosts. I fail to see Riots logic.

NarasimhaNov 23, 20148 votes

I'm no Rioter, but I might be able to shed some light on it. There is a difference between gaining a free spell and gaining some mana back. No matter what, Liss's next spell is free. 0 cost. She can cast it as long as she isn't cced. On the other hand, mana back doesn't guarantee an immediate spell. Xerath doesn't get enough mana back for a spell unless he directly hits a champion, which is risky enough. Veigar's takes a lot longer to get back a cast, especially given his higher costs. And Swain has to actually farm to get his mana back. That's just me playing devil's advocate though. Who knows, maybe they did forget about her.

OyddAWqJ5rNov 23, 201416 votes

Well this has been something they've been doing for awhile now. They'll put a passive on a champion that gives them awesome sounding bonuses to a stat but then make the base values for that champion's stat abysmal.

Examples: Lissandra has a free spell every 15 seconds or so.

But in compensation she has ridiculously high mana costs on low cooldown abilities.

Sion can potentially gain an infinite amount of bonus health.

But he has extremely low base health to compensate

Makes you wonder why Lissandra's passive isn't just removed from her kit entirely in favor of lower mana costs, higher cooldowns and more damage. It doesn't help her to have a free spell every once in awhile if they make all her spells have low value per cast on low cooldowns with high mana costs.

Long Dong WukongNov 23, 201415 votes

Because Riot actually thinks that raping base stats for passive gains isn't assfuck backwards.

ThryaleNov 23, 20142 votes

riot's been wanting to give liss a new passive for a while now. But a combination of higher priority champs and the fact that the few ideas they have need thorough testing means that she's been put on the back burner.

DragonSheaNov 24, 20141 votes

I'm no Rioter, but I might be able to shed some light on it. There is a difference between gaining a free spell and gaining some mana back. No matter what, Liss's next spell is free. 0 cost. She can cast it as long as she isn't cced. On the other hand, mana back doesn't guarantee an immediate spell. Xerath doesn't get enough mana back for a spell unless he directly hits a champion, which is risky enough. Veigar's takes a lot longer to get back a cast, especially given his higher costs. And Swain has to actually farm to get his mana back. That's just me playing devil's advocate though. Who knows, maybe they did forget about her.

Good point. Lissandra can literally cast spells with 0 mana every 18 seconds. meaning that she will still have an ace in the hole for when you need it. so her mana regen may lower to compensate for free spells.

Malicious FuryNov 23, 20141 votes

I think their reasoning was because of her passive giving her a manaless spell every 15 seconds or so. But if you ask me, that reasoning is flawed because Xerath and Veigar have the new mana stats but their passives also gives them mana boosts. I fail to see Riots logic.

And Malzahar has a huge mana passive with his E.

Auz the RipperNov 24, 20141 votes

His mana return requires it's target to die to return mana and jump, then it requires at least 3 jumps for it to just break even, which can a little difficult early.

I'm not say it isn't useful, but it's a lot different and trickier than what's being discussed. Much closer to Swain and karthus

FiendOfOneNov 22, 201417 votes

Every 18 seconds, and being that Xerath and Veigar both have the normalized mana regen, that doesn't really hold up, given their passives. I've been trying to figure it out as well.

Long Dong WukongNov 23, 20149 votes

Hey passive is fucking counter-intuitive as fuck. Expensive as fuck Q because of a true-shit tier passive?

A classic example of shitty design.

I Solo TowersNov 23, 20147 votes

What is the point of even having a passive if you only get it by losing base stats?

This would be like giving a champ 200 less health than all comparable champions then giving him +200 health as a passive.

Kowe The EwokNov 23, 20143 votes

Riot would never do that! Sion

flibitydooNov 23, 20146 votes

How come Nunu isn't on that list, he's a mage and a tank.

Like Lissandra, he has a passive that gives him free spells

Like Lissandra, he can apply a short cd slow that chunks really hard

~~Like lissandra, melees loves to lane against him when he's free to spam his spells~~

ignore that last point, give Lissandra and Nunu the mana regen they deserve

AetherKingdomNov 22, 20143 votes

i was about to be mad for that rengar one. It's like how rengar's base health regen is beyond shit because he has a heal that he has to use his ferocity for which sacrifices cc and damage and it only heals for a negligible amount unless you're already dead.

5G8Nri0B54Nov 23, 20142 votes

AD champions are different.

For one, lifesteal is often a great buy on AD champions, especially with Doran's Sword too.

Whereas if you're AP, Lifesteal is limited and very rarely the greated item to buy.

AetherKingdomNov 23, 20141 votes

AD champions are different.

For one, lifesteal is often a great buy on AD champions, especially with Doran's Sword too.

Whereas if you're AP, Lifesteal is limited and very rarely the greated item to buy.

AP also have things that they can buy that AD can't utilize, such as Zhonya. Also, AP have very different fight patterns than AD. AD specialize in damage over time where sustain helps, but AP typically goes for : Kill one person instantly, back off for 5 seconds, chunk another person for 3 /4 , repeat. more burst than sustain.

JunkοNov 23, 20141 votes

AP also have things that they can buy that AD can't utilize, such as Zhonya.

item 3139 item 3026

AetherKingdomNov 23, 20141 votes

GA isn't a good example because both AD and AP can utilize it efficiently, if not AP better because it gives them four seconds for cd to go down. Merc Scmitar is only viable in a select few situations where you get suppressed/ chain cced (correctly)

Solidair3Nov 22, 20143 votes

Does she really need it? I'm rarely gasping for mana in lane when I play her, and I feel like she's in a pretty good place right now

OblongOtterNov 22, 201410 votes

If Xerath can get it, so should she.

Z46Nov 23, 20142 votes

Don't forget Swain.

mike the pikeNov 23, 20142 votes

Lets see now, maybe its because lissandra is seen as either a poke champion (long range spells for some damage, which 18 seconds is kinda of enough time to keep up the poke) or the champion which uses her claw to jump in, then her ult and other ability to stun, during that time you escape and don't use spells or wait for passive cd ORR you die in the middle of enemies after the stuns and stuff stop. She is meant to be a duck and dodge keep enemies away champ and/or the jump in give allies lots of time to kill and die gloriously champion. Lissandra is meant to dive in and die to help her team land kills or not be distracted by enemy cc, why do you think the claw has such long range AND lets her teleport to it?

CrettNov 23, 20142 votes

while i do think it's a bit strange when they give a champion a passive and then nerf their stats to make it less effective, lissandra... lissandra really doesn't need more mana the only thing keeping her from being as nightmarish as quinn and teemo in the top lane is her mana

5G8Nri0B54Nov 23, 20141 votes

Teemo -> "Nightmarish"

CrettNov 24, 20141 votes

Teemo -> "Nightmarish"

i play trundle in the top lane and i die a little more inside whenever i see quinn, teemo, ryze, lissandra or pantheon up there

5G8Nri0B54Nov 24, 20141 votes

Well...when you play a champion that is as easily kitable as Garen and Darius...of course ranged champions would be a problem.

ElemonNov 23, 20141 votes

The entire point is that Lissandra doesn't waste energy when she doesn't need to... She just patiently wears down her enemies. Her passive and mana barrier reflect that. Also, as a Lissandra, I never really have mana problems... Just don't spam early game and you'll be fine.

SerpensNov 23, 20144 votes

The entire point is that Lissandra doesn't waste energy when she doesn't need to... She just patiently wears down her enemies. Her passive and mana barrier reflect that. Also, as a Lissandra, I never really have mana problems... Just don't spam early game and you'll be fine.

It's not about having problems with her mana regen. I main lissandra and I also don't have troubles with her mana early. However, this is about principles. If other champions with mana regen passives can have the buff, why can't she as well?

ElemonNov 24, 20141 votes

Xerath: He also slowly chips away at enemies, but honestly, his passive is not nearly as good as Lissandra's, so he needs it more. Veigar: His passive is only good if he has mana regen, and he is a lot more spamtastic than the others (good luck farming AP if you can only attack twice every 20 seconds). Lissandra: Her passive gates her at slow attacks early game, and with too much mana regen, it would be completely unnecessary. I don't feel like either Veigar or Xerath really need the mana regen boost, but it fits Lissandra even less.

CarniverousNov 23, 20141 votes

Hopefully a Red flys in with some numbers that show that she has a high enough mana sustain with that passive. Compared to others like Xerath and Veigar.

HassohappaNov 23, 20141 votes

Be fair? You'd have to buff a ton of champions based on this thought process.

Trundle and Garen have some of the worst armor in the game because of Garen's W and Trundle's ult. Thresh's armor is the lowest in the game at 16 (lower than everyone else's at level 1 and unlike everyone else's does not increase) because of his passive. Trundle is also tied with six other champions for the worst MR in the game of anyone that has MR growth/level.

Jinx, Blitz, Nunu, and Elise all have terrible base AS to mitigate their fantastic AS buffs. Diana's base AS is lousy because of her passive as well, though more because of the actual damage proc part and less because of the 20% AS I suspect. Plenty of champions are balanced like that, and many of them do well regardless. Changing them to make their buffs less silly would also require nerfing them to make up for the change in those cases.

FantasySniperNov 24, 20141 votes

Consider that Mp5 has been changed to become a percentage increase instead of a flat.

Now your first argument is pointless. Defense is the easiest method of building, and it scales faster despite not being harder.

The next one is a fair point. But it is sort of offset by the fact that AAs are completely free, technically never miss, and scale entirely differently.

Meanwhile, Lissandra as an APC uses mana as a resource, meaning that with her horrible stats for it, it becomes very hard to manage. Before, this wasn't as huge of a problem, as getting any mana item meant you could keep up with the rest, but now her mana reserves are horribly inferior throughout the game.

Samflash3Nov 24, 20141 votes

Most of you posting here don't even play Lissandra.

http://www.lolking.net/champions/lissandra#statistics

That said, I feel bad for you guys...that you have to find another freelo champion to main.

~~#~~YeahScrewLissandra

Kowe The EwokNov 24, 20141 votes

I'm pretty certain that these statistics don't include normal games.

JustBoneBrookNov 24, 20141 votes

It one of the only raison i dont play her SHE GOT 0 MANA ok a passif that give free spell but with 0 mana i dont care i can cast after 20 sec one spell

WooBeeWooNov 24, 20141 votes

Riot only 'balances' adcs

SIaytonNov 24, 20141 votes

I hate it when they waste an ability or passive slot on some sort of buff only to make them weaker in the same area in their base stats to compensate. Whats the point of giving it to them in the first place then? Just give her regular mana / mana regen and give her a more useful passive then -_-

ShemsuHorNov 24, 20141 votes

Thatd work but id rather if they just buffed her Q: "Shards then pass through the target, dealing the same damage to other enemies hit (but not slowing them)." If it slowed everyone her passive cd would be much shorter.