Boards›Gameplay

Why did you gut junglers?

Kowe The Ewok··102 votes·8,363 views

Please, I don't get it. You said you wanted to increase variety. But instead of tweaking the two overperforming champions you nerfed the jungle items. Several times. When ranged champions started to see play in the jungle you nerfed it. Instantly. Making it impossible.

You increased the cooldown of Smite. A Trailblazer nerf without any compensation and then a 2nd nerf followed. Okay, the 45s CD made it too strong in terms of objective control, but you didn't consider champs which relied on its sustain (CD went from 45 to 75s, health/mana gain unchanged).

You nerfed the other Smites, too. And why? Because Warwick was able to break the maximum amounts of attacks per second with his ultimate at level 6 (thus exceeding even full-ASP-on-hit-build procs). Again instead of tweaking the champion properly you nerfed the item.

And just now you nerfed the cost of all T2 jungle items, heavily hurting champions which rely on them for their early clear.

Seriously, each step taken in the last 2 month feels like a big contradiction:

  • Jungler shouldn't gank early. Thus we purposely destroy their early levels.
  • Oh look. Junglers are farming their jungle. We don't want them to farm their jungle. We increase the smite CD.

132 Comments

Hasztalan220 votes

Dude their balance team has no clue about wtf are they doing so why do ppl still expect them to keep up their promises? ^^ They do exact opposite what they promise allways.

Ace Access 2 votes

{quoted}

Dude their balance team has no clue about wtf are they doing so why do ppl still expect them to keep up their promises? ^^ They do exact opposite what they promise allways.

how about we make them promise the exact opposite ? its at least worth a shot

Retillin9 votes

It really has to do with Riot playing favourites with the jungle. They came out and said that this latest nerf to the jungle hurt more than the 2 or three champions who were dominating. Until they change one champion they will not be able to balance the rest of the jungle. Every attempt to balance the jungle in the last two years has failed because of this. They will continue to fail because of this and their refusal to deal with the issue at hand. It's become such a large deal that the replies to this issue are confused and split by each Rioter that braves the boards.

Rioter #1 "blank champion is balanced" Rioter #2 "we know blank champion is having a negative impact on the jungle"

Narasimha8 votes

When ranged champions started to see play in the jungle you nerfed it. Instantly. Making it impossible.

Just to jump in, that was more of what the ranged champions were doing to the jungle than the champions themselves. I mean, it was hardly fair that they literally got to go through the jungle while taking little-to-no damage at all. If they're going to jungle, might as well put them on the same playing field.

Kowe The Ewok8 votes

Twisted Fate and Lulu were played at tournaments. But instead of dominating them they got dominated quite often. Simply because even a full health Lulu is extremely squishy when played in the jungle and can be 1-hit-combo'd by a Lee Sin or Xin .

We saw variety nad it was destroyed. Not because it was broken, but because Riot didn't like that kind of variety for some unknown reason.

Narasimha3 votes

And thats why they hit the jungle itself rather than hitting the champions. If they wanted such champions to truly be unviable, they could have simply hit the abilities and stats themselves. Instead, they chose an option where ranged had to be forced on the same level as melee, which 'destroyed it'.

Thryale5 votes

I feel like riot knee-jerk reacts too much when it comes to balance. The players are smarter than they are given credit for, but with riot constantly reacting to what is "op" over the years, it really feels like the community is now overly dependent on riot to fix problems for us instead of us looking for alternatives to counter what is FotM.

Dancing Ninja2 votes

http://cdn.funnyisms.com/023d4093-e32c-4824-8cb2-08179572dddb.gif Riot when it thinks something is op

MrSc0tty13 votes

{quoted}

Just to jump in, that was more of what the ranged champions were doing to the jungle than the champions themselves. I mean, it was hardly fair that they literally got to go through the jungle while taking little-to-no damage at all. If they're going to jungle, might as well put them on the same playing field.

They had the inherent disadvantage of clearing slower and being incredibly squishy in the jungle even full HP.

Kowe The Ewok11 votes

This. Not to mention that they required much more skill to be used correctly. One missstep and reset - and you'ld fall behind 15s and loose a quarter of your health for nothing.

Kuroi862 votes

Separating the bad junglers from the great junglers.

Raxicor3 votes

I don't agree. Mainly because at that point(pre-nerf), melee *and *ranged champions could exploit the soft resets and take less damage if they knew what they were doing. I'm not one of those people(my skills are laughable), but I had seen it done. Now(post-nerf) I don't see people even bothering with it. Poor junglers just smack their heads on the monsters until they're too bloody to continue, then mute chat so they don't have to listen to the lanes whining about not being able to hold lane for 4 minutes.

Thryale4 votes

you do realize that it would be impossible for them to clear otherwise, right? most ranged champs are too squishy to tank the jungle like the melee champs.

warpenguin5557 votes

idek jungle is unplayable now

Knight SoIaire 42 votes

it is playabele but we have 3 viable junglers

AbrahamBaconham16 votes

A massive exaggeration.

Knight SoIaire 27 votes

exageration? yes massive? nope

many junglers got killed because if they clear they end up with too little hp to gank so they cant respond to opportunities

Marinaras Trench8 votes

JarvanIV Fiddlesticks LeeSin MasterYi Udyr Nocturne Shaco Sejuani Rammus Amumu Vi Hecarim Rengar RekSai Shyvana Warwick XinZhao

JJ H0G5 votes

Volibear Aatrox Urgot Yasuo Trundle

They're all pretty damn good junglers too. Though Yas is more of an AFK farm till six kinda champ, Urgot can easily gank mid at level 2 for first blood if he starts red.

Kowe The Ewok16 votes

Not sure if troll or Bronze VI

Cloud2735 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kowe The Ewok,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EBAuWkxH,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-02-01T19:56:25.042+0000)

Not sure if troll or Bronze VI

Volibear and Trundle are both viable junglers. The rest of them not really.

Old Man Teeto25 votes

Ability to clear jungle does not a viable jungler make.

I Main Swain4 votes

or at least 3 who can stay past taking 3 camps

Sammystorm2 votes

most tank junglers can stay in they jungle a good while. You just have to have your masteries a bit different then you did in season 4.

I Main Swain1 votes

depends on the jungler. however, I guess I see your point. haven't played jungle in a while but I remember the last time I did I was actually able to stay out a lot longer than I thought I would be able to. that being said, on a related note, I think sejuani's passive should be changed to a %hp shield.

Sammystorm1 votes

honestly I can full clear as sej in this jungle. AoE. is really strong for clearing the jungle. Biscuits are also your best friend.

I Main Swain1 votes

yes, BUT her passive is trash and imo every tank (especially tank junglers) should have a decent tanking ability, whether that be a big armor/mr boost, a shield, or a heal

Sammystorm1 votes

her passive is a tank stat. Plus she makes up for it with her amazing team fight and decent to good damage.

I Main Swain1 votes

I mean a real tank stat, not 10-25 bonus armor and a little tenacity. first off, it has nothing to do with the rest of her anything. second, graves passive is almost as good for tankiness as hers (arguably better if you want mr over a little tenacity). in fact, it isn't even real tenacity, it just reduces ms slow effects by a little for 2 seconds.

Sammystorm1 votes

getting 25 free armor is pretty neat. Not many tanks actually have tank passives.

I Main Swain1 votes

sorry, should have said passive. what I meant was a tanking ability. and also, while 25 armor is cool, it starts at only 10 and considering you don't get to 25 until late game by that point 25 armor is like the 10 armor early game. and even the quality of the ability aside, it has nothing to do with the rest of her kit or her lore

Sammystorm1 votes

I do agree that 25 isn't very significant and that it doesn't match thematically. I don't think that she needs a tank passive to do well. I would rather have a utility passive like a slow or something.

I Main Swain1 votes

like I said, she doesn't necessarily need a tank passive but she DOES need a tank ability

Akesgeroth6 votes

I'm surprised that people haven't reverted to having no jungler and having a duo lane at top. Or better yet, simply having the "jungler" grab buffs and then duo lane with top.

Maplecrest2 votes

I've done that. Works impressively well.

AnOstrichWithPMS5 votes

duo top new meta?

BastionKross1 votes

Hey, at least it'd be something different than the same old meta all the time.

missinggrave2 votes

YOUR TANKINESS MEANS NOTHING TO OUR NEVER ENDING PAIN TRAIN!

(( Hecarim Janna duo top for new meta ))

Raxicor5 votes

If you're gonna go hec match him with Zilean . Just sayin'.

Kitten of Evil2 votes

Or Karma

RanmanReborn5 votes

I've said it the past 2 years that the balance team didn't have a god damn clue what they're doing. At its current state, jungling is near impossible if you're looking to make a difference in lanes. Even when you do power farm in the jungle, the XP is still far behind lanes, meaning you're still level 4 or 5 while laners are hitting 6 or 7. If you DO gank lane, if you fail, you're even further behind. I've had to revert to my season 3 strat of taxing lanes for XP when one of my laners goes back to base just to stay EVEN. On top of the stupidity of most junglers having their health depleted after the first 3 camps (thereby forcing them to return to base), they increased the cost of the jungle items, so now you can't even afford health pots on your return to the jungle.

The season 4 jungle may have had its problems, but at least I felt I was making a difference and could carry games easier if my laners fell behind, and I could play more than 3 viable junglers. Now, I have to hope my laners at least go even with their counterparts, because I'm more reliant on THEM to get to where I need to be. It's just another case of Riot placating to making their LCS more watchable, but making their game less playable.

Thanks Riot for making the one role I enjoyed playing and completely f*cking trashing it. The people working on your balance team are just throwing poo at a wall and hoping it sticks.

Crett5 votes

here's the REAL question why'd they gut TANKS?

Squarefighter3 votes

You increased the cooldown of Smite. On Trailblazer even twice, without any compensation. You nerfed the other enchantments too. And why?

2 smites isn't compensation??

Kowe The Ewok5 votes

Higher cooldown on the same ability. Unless you're a super high sustain jungler (Lee, Xin) who also can gank you actually don't gain anything from the 2 stacks.

Not to mention that that Trailblazer did not get any compensation for the first CD increase. The Riot reasoning was "Yea, the CD makes it too valuable for objective control." It wasn't even about the sustain (which already was low). They just flat increased the cooldown, without compensating the mana and health gain that was effectively lost. Trailblazer was the original reasoning why they gave the jungle items such horrible mana regeneration.

Yes, they buffed the mana usage of Eve and Heca but there are a dozen more junglers with high mana cost which were forced out of the jungle by this nerf.

Squarefighter3 votes

Honestly I play a lot of jungle and the double smite thingamajig really helps me out. Also, who told you "Trailblazer was the original reasoning why they gave the jungle items such horrible mana regeneration."? Can you link me to the Riot post?

Kowe The Ewok3 votes

No offense, but I take as much time to google it as you.

One of them (Riot employees) argued against an improving the sustain gained by items by suggesting to take Trailblazer.

That was pre Trailblazer nerf.

Squarefighter2 votes

I take as much time to google it as you? Huh?

Kowe The Ewok2 votes

Do you think I got a link to every Riot statement ever made? -.-

If you want that statement google it. Sorry but I'm trying to respond everybody in this topic as good as I can. But that doesn't include googling everything for others...

Akai Kaze1 votes

I think people need to stop complaining about variety. Personally I'm happy the jungle is tough and not everyone can go Ashe jungle or lulu jungle and be successful. Champs that were designed to jungle will make it through the jungle just fine if you know what your doing.

The worst thing that ever happen in this game was last season when every champ and their mother could make it through the jungle healthy.. the most BS thing ever.

To be extremely honest they need to make the jungle even tougher, tweak the actual junglers and jungle items a bit and completely eradicate any possibility of any squishy champ ever seeing time in the jungle.

Kikirino21 votes

"I think people need to stop complaining about variety."

Riot stated that they wanted to increase variety in the jungle. People are complaining because Riot's actions are doing the opposite of what they said they wanted. The complaints are justified.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Kowe The Ewok

Add a loading screen teamchat.
Gameplay68 comments
231
votes
A jungler's perspective: How I picture the S5 Jungle developement went
Gameplay73 comments
119
votes
Be fair Riot. Give Lissandra the same mana regen you gave all casters.
Gameplay41 comments
99
votes
Riot. Trailblazer is NOT the problem.
Gameplay74 comments
95
votes
ADC vs DPS Mages
Gameplay148 comments
91
votes
If Lee is blind - why is he running faster than a pony?
Gameplay76 comments
79
votes