ADC vs DPS Mages

Kowe The Ewok·9/15/2017, 5:59:53 PM·91 votes·6,915 views

"Azir has no meaningful weaknesses in his current state" - Meddler 15th september How about flashing / dashing past his soldiers once he uses Q leaving him with literally no way to fight you other than basic auto attacks?

It's frustrating to see how you continuously destroy DPS mages , you simply ignore key requirements (like Cassiopeia having to land Q or being restricted by mana) and nerf them to a point where Lucien or Corki just replace them in mid.

Like nerfing all AP items, giving everyone free MR and adding Adaptive Helmet wasn't destructive enough to DPS mages. We have ADC not only being played in the botlane, but also in the midlane (Lucien, Corki) and in the jungle (Twitch, Ezreal) and somehow you decide to nerf DPS mages out of the meta instead, every time they are remotely close to being viable.

**Opposed to ADC DPS-Mages actually have counterplay. Yet a Cassiopeia Cassiopeia can be place #98 in terms of winrate (Diamond rank OP.GG stats, dropped further to #100 today 15th september, #104 16th september) and be nerfed while a #10 winrate Twitch Twitch remains untouched. **

148 Comments

Chembaron Yamada9/15/2017, 8:29:31 PM65 votes

Azir wasn't just a simple DPS mage.

He had the range of an artillery mage. The damage of a dps mage. The mobility of a long range Diver. The initiation potential of a Vanguard thanks to his shuffle. The zoning of a control mage.

All these aspects combined, it is true, a well played Azir had no weakness whatsoever. There is a reason that Azir was pretty much the alpha predator of the rift when he was strong.

The changes aim to shift him over to a battlemage and therefore they want to implement the disadvantages of this subclass in his kit.

xJLx MCHammer9/15/2017, 9:32:14 PM27 votes

Somewhere around season 4, riot decided to make the following design philosophy changes

  1. Burst mages aren't a hard counter to ADC early or mid game
  2. ADCs will becomes the ultimate carry

Since season 4, riot has shifted their goal to make ADCs the primary carry. We see in LCS where that agenda has taken hold. We now see ADC champions in mid lane more than 80% of mages. Outside Taliyah (already nerfed), Orianna, and Syndra, there aren't any real viable mid lane mages. Most will get bullied out by an ADC Lucian or Corki

We aren't there yet, but another season with changes that are designed like the previous 1-2 years will make ADCs played in mid more than many mages.

Anything viable in LCS tends to get nerfed but ADCs tend to get buff to them or something that relates to them more than other. When tanks were reworked, the only other items that got buffed where ADC items..

I'm not arguing or complaining about these changes. In solo q, anybthing is viable and mid lane is still mostly mages and assassins but in pro play, we have see what these gradual changes have done to mid lane

When is the last time you saw a traditional mid lane in pro play? A karthus? An Anivia? A xerath?

We have see what happens in games when players pick these champions against lucians..etc. they get bullied in lane, die one, and lose the tower. They get out scaled.

DuskDaUmbreon9/15/2017, 7:12:23 PM14 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kowe The Ewok,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ygwn0dWE,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-09-15T17:59:53.812+0000)

"Azir has no meaningful weaknesses in his current state" - how about flashing / dashing past his soldiers once he uses Q leaving him with literally no way to fight you other than basic auto attacks?

You can't dash past his wall - only flash. And his Q has insane range, only Ahri could close that gap with her dashes and flash. Literately nobody else has the chance to get to him before he's just walked back to his turret, barring a Yasuo or Akali when Azir's minions are walking by him.

It's frustrating to see how you continuously destroy DPS mages , you simply ignore key requirements (like Cassiopeia having to land Q or being restricted by mana) and nerf them to a point where Lucien or Corki just replace them in mid.

Corki's pretty much always been a midlaner, and he's basically an AD/AP caster. You can't count him as an ADC any more than you can count Quinn as one. Lucain's only in mid because he's kinda bad in bot, and because he does well against Kassadin (who is a relatively popular pick in top-tier). He still loses almost automatically to most mages.

Like nerfing all AP items, giving everyone free MR, adding Adaptive Helmet wasn't destructive enough to DPS mages.

AP items were nerfed a bit, and mages got better scaling, if I'm correct. Everyone who didn't already have it (Most ranged champions and Yasuo) was given MR/level to somewhat match armor/level. You still get less MR per level than you get armor per level.

We have ADC not only being played in the botlane, but also in the midlane (Lucien, Corki) and in the jungle (Twitch, Ezreal) and somehow you decide to nerf DPS mages out of the meta instead, every time they are remotely close to being viable.

I've covered both Lucian and Corki's reasons for being in mid. I haven't seen a Twitch in the jungler for a year, now, because he's so locked into predetermined paths that he kinda just sucks in it. Any decent player can just interrupt his path and crush him. Ezreal has a 47% win rate in the jungle, and he's there because he can't go anywhere else and succeed. He has to settle for a goddamned 47% win rate at a role, because every other way is worse. He's objectively the worst ADC right now, has no ability to support (except for a tiny AS boost on his W, I think), doesn't really work in mid (too many mages there crush him), and...might work top, I suppose? Maybe? Assuming he's against an immobile melee champion that isn't Nasus or Cho'gath, he might do fine. Maybe.

**Opposed to ADC DPS-Mages actually have counterplay. Yet a Cassiopeia Cassiopeia can be place #98 in terms of winrate (Diamond rank OP.GG stats, dropped further to #100 today 15th september) and be nerfed while a #10 winrate Twitch Twitch remains untouched.

Marksmen have more counterplay than DPS mages. Sure, they can't miss you with their primary source of damage, but they also generally have no CC to stop you from blowing them up (of the top 3 meta ones of Tristana, Twitch, and Draven, only Trist has reliable self-peel. Draven has a minor displacement that can be dodged, and Twitch only has a laughable slow). Most DPS mages, while they can miss sometimes, tend to have a solid amount of CC. Cassiopeia in particular has her ultimate (can't be dodged if you're running at her) and her grounding, both things that can mess up any mage or assassin big-time.

Dr Poro9/15/2017, 10:29:29 PM11 votes

Recent patches have been around pro plays. Cassiopeia was a dominant pick there as was lucian. Both got a nerf althoguh I agree lucian's nerf was really gentle. I guess they want to see him being played now and then in worlds.

Note that ADC is a broader class than just 'physical DPS ranged damage'. Lucian is very good mid, but sucks in the bottom lane. I think it's nice that this champ in particular found a home elsewhere. Perhaps, however, it's because other adcs are just too strong and it's easier to prey on the weaker midlaners. I think the adc+supp combo is a bit too strong atm. In ARAM this becomes VERY apparent. Facing an adc or a support without the other is fine. Facing both together, however, is just depressing. (By support I actually mean anything that can peel, not just the enchanters but also all tanks including a lot of toplaners and junglers). When there's an adc in your team, everyone with any sort of heal, shield or CC becomes a support to enable the ADC. I'm seeing this trend in LCS as well. It's less about midlane now, they'r basically the early game snowballers but later in the game, it's all about the adc. Toplane is just something to hold a lane for the early game and then protect the adc or disrupt theirs while functioning as a damage soak, trying to outlast the enemy frontline, because in no way are you actually going to KILL their ADC unless major missplays happen. A big part of this is the stronger support items that have more power put into buffing or protecting your team or just one member. Perhaps it's because mages got less damage and 40% CDR is ubiquitous. Maybe I'm exaggerating a bit because I think it has always been a bit like this, except when assassins were really strong and I didn't like those times. It's just a bit more pronounced now and small nerfs/buffs should happen to certain classes/items, not big ones.

Sire Hippington9/15/2017, 10:58:19 PM10 votes

As much as i hate ADC, dps mages tend to be bastards aswell. Playing vs a decent cassio is out right misserable, and she's a staple in proplay for a good reason. Azir when not gutted is about the worst one can face, there's nothing he doesn't do. The CDs are to low to really abuse the soldiers positioning and his own mobillity+ult prevent you from really punishing him till his soldiers are back in your face, and you need to commit alot to close the gap vs his huge range. Ryze whenever strong is a big balance issue aswell.

The big issue right now with damage creep is that burst and poke has generally so low cds that they also do decent dps, so in order to make a noticable difference, dps is so high that it's basically consistent burst(which in turn diminishes the difference again as they kill squishys way to fast), wether it's from AP or AD. Damagecreep needs to be adressed as a whole befir the differences between AP, AD, dps, burst and poke can be adressed in a meaningfull way,

Rivuo9/15/2017, 9:46:21 PM8 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kowe The Ewok,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ygwn0dWE,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-09-15T17:59:53.812+0000)

"Azir has no meaningful weaknesses in his current state" - Meddler 15th september How about flashing / dashing past his soldiers once he uses Q leaving him with literally no way to fight you other than basic auto attacks?

It's frustrating to see how you continuously destroy DPS mages , you simply ignore key requirements (like Cassiopeia having to land Q or being restricted by mana) and nerf them to a point where Lucien or Corki just replace them in mid.

Like nerfing all AP items, giving everyone free MR and adding Adaptive Helmet wasn't destructive enough to DPS mages. We have ADC not only being played in the botlane, but also in the midlane (Lucien, Corki) and in the jungle (Twitch, Ezreal) and somehow you decide to nerf DPS mages out of the meta instead, every time they are remotely close to being viable.

**Opposed to ADC DPS-Mages actually have counterplay. Yet a Cassiopeia Cassiopeia can be place #98 in terms of winrate (Diamond rank OP.GG stats, dropped further to #100 today 15th september) and be nerfed while a #10 winrate Twitch Twitch remains untouched. **

Delusional. You have never fought against a good azir. Hands down oppressive.

Skorch9/15/2017, 10:21:58 PM8 votes

"Adaptive helm stopping DPS mages from DPSing"

(> . >) item 3143 item 3110 item 3075

K

KennysDreamGirl9/15/2017, 6:43:38 PM8 votes

i dont think a misplay counts as a weakness for a champion

Ahris9/15/2017, 8:09:23 PM7 votes

Azir's ulti is one of the most broken ability in game. Glad they changed it to basically an aoe knockback. Azir was too good against Assassins and mages. Like there is really no champ that could face Azir if Azir understand how to play him.

After the changes, he will still deny assassins, but not as much as he was like before.

Swarovsko9/15/2017, 10:52:18 PM7 votes

Not gonna lie as much as I like Meddler I don't like what he and the balance team are doing this season. I would love to see him as a champion designer again, Syndra Ziggs Lissandra are amazing champions.

Handy Sandy 9/15/2017, 7:59:16 PM7 votes

"Azir has no meaningful weaknesses in his current state"

How about flashing / dashing past his soldiers once he uses Q leaving him with literally no way to fight you other than basic auto attacks?

Because when played perfectly he has no counterplay unlike other fair/balanced champions. Ok you flashed from my soldiers, now I can ult you away and wait until Q is back on off CD. Then I can 3 shot you later with bps from half the screen away. He has something to respond to every situation because of his overloaded kit.

Asayake 5150glow9/15/2017, 11:50:39 PM7 votes

You seem to be forgetting the part where Azir has basically a permaslow, 100% AoE damage, the fact that his Q has a super short cooldown, and his fucking 800+ range, his AoE knockback, and his high mobility.

Flashing past a Azir gets you maybe into 400 range, but then he dashes/walks away (because of his slow) and Q's you 2 seconds later and continues to permaslow you.

If you flash into him then jump on him, you get ulted away and killed since you just used your mobility and your flash.

HenzoAF9/15/2017, 6:02:25 PM6 votes

That's why I'm playin' MasterYi

sobi9999/15/2017, 11:39:08 PM5 votes

Azir They reworked him to be more close ranged. Now the adc's that he could poke in safety will drain him to death. Not to mention the nashoor's passive on-hit and the weak passive of rylais are his most core items. Azir was supposed to be buffed riot?

invisiblecat19/15/2017, 11:58:02 PM5 votes

I think Riot really does forget the requirements to actually be a DPS mage Adc's get free damage whenever they press right click, LITERALLY NO DOWNSIDE TO THIS Meanwhile Cass and Azir has to burn the entirety of their mana pool just to get in range and deal even some meaningful damage to an enemy

Thefrostyviking9/15/2017, 7:48:15 PM4 votes

The idea is that all champs should have counterplay outside flashing or using summoners against them though.

And Cassio and Azir are being nerfed because they are immensely powerful in pro hands, like enough to dominate most others and still deliver heavily.

It's like a lategame monster beating early game monsters and then going of to hit their lategame in the midgame which is bad.

And Lucian mid is not really a big deal, his only gimmick is his E but if you keep that in mind he won't get any kills on you.

Papa Rinky9/16/2017, 5:26:28 AM3 votes

You must not remember old Azir if you think it was THAT easy to outplay him