A jungler's perspective: How I picture the S5 Jungle developement went

Kowe The Ewok·Feb 9, 2015·119 votes·7,010 views

"So, J4 and Lee are completely dominating the meta, AGAIN. Maybe it would be healthy if we slightly ner..." "Nononononono, nerf Smite." "But the other junglers?" "Who cares."

"Boss, the Smite nerfs didn't help! Maybe we really should nerf J4 and Le......" "Nonononono! Make jungle items more expensive" "But the othe..." "I SAID MAKE THEM MORE EXPENSIVE!" "Aye, chief."

"Uhm, Boss? J4 and Lee are still dominating the meta.." "How can this be? We've done such a good job patching the jungle!" "Maybe we should simply nerf J4 and L.." "Nonononono, I got it! We simply nerf the jungle items AGAIN!" "But, Sir we've already tried tha..." "YOU HEARD WHAT I SAID!" "Aye, chief."

"Boss, I'm sorry to disturb you again - but Lee and j4 are STILL dominating the meta." "Don't annoy me with such oddments. Buff the jungle creeps. Pronto!" "B....b...but Chief - we've already made viable jungling near impossible for 3/4 of S4s champion roster!" "Does Lee still work?" "Yes, but him dominating the meta is why we initiallly.." "I don't get your problem! Jungling is obviously working! Stop complaining already!" "Aye chief..."

Even though I use Lee as my primary "example", this is not meant to be a direct complaint about him (even though I'ld say that he lacks a clear weakness).

It's more about how the jungle has developed and that it seems viabilty hasn't taken into account the average jungle champion, but only the top notch picks - with the result of driving a lot of champion out of the jungle while cementing the top notch junglers as such (instead of attempting to equalize the capability to jungle across a more varied champion roster).

73 Comments

Shadow GilgameshFeb 9, 201553 votes

How I see it proceeding

Next Week

"Boss, Lee and J4 are as rampant as ever, we should really do something" "You're absolutely right, we've been putting this off for too long" "Oh thank god, we have some great ideas from the community on how to rework Lee S-" "We gotta get rid of J4" "W-What?" "J4, he's pulling an Elise. Our golden boy, Lee Sin, praise be to him, has gotta have the whole spotlight! Draw up some ideas on how to deal with the J4 problem by tomorrow" "Y-yes boss"

ComeOnAndSlamJamFeb 9, 201540 votes

This is totally wrong and offensive.

In a real Riot discussion nobody would suggest needing Lee. To even think about lowering Lee's power level would be an affront to everything Riot stands for.

FrikgeekFeb 9, 20157 votes

That would actually be funny if it wasn't for the fact that when Riot tried to nerf Lee the community outcry was so massive and about a thousand yammering sheep cried against it. Riot had to revert the PBE nerfs to Lee because they were obviously "too much".

KyrtianFeb 9, 20156 votes

Thats the problem of a vocal minority. You need to nerf Lee Sin even though there will be complaints, because people don't want their freelo spout shut off. Remember how many people cried when riven finally got nerfed? Then, look at the numbers. Those lee sin fans are a tiny percentage of LoL players. Yeah, 30,000 of them posted on the forums, but 30,000 people out of 38 million players aint much. Screw lee sin, give the nerf bat already

FrikgeekFeb 9, 20153 votes

I agree, but I'm just saying it's not like Riot doesn't ever think of nerfing Lee. That vocal minority were the ones who stopped him from being nerfed into relative balance. And all they wanted to do was buff his ratios and heavily nerf his bases, so that he actually has to build damage to do damage(not just get warriors and then full tank while still outputting massive damage).

Z46Feb 10, 20153 votes

I want to see a base damage nerf on Lee actually go through. Lee Sin needs this kind of nerf for all the utility and mobility he has on low cooldowns—and with an energy bar, no less.

They did exactly this to Rek'Sai, and right now she has to prioritize damage if she wants to actually deal damage. This means she's squishy for the majority of the match. She doesn't have Lee's constant mobility threat, his CC, or his execute. For her melee-range true damage; her melee-range knockup; her visible, destructible tunnels; and the damage-less global ult that's completely reliant on said tunnels, she has virtually no base damage, and she's hilariously kitable.

Prey Seeker doesn't even have a slow. Lee has an AoE slow.

Unburrow is only for the knockup, requires you to be in the danger zone, and it only works once on a unit every ten seconds. Lee Sin can Safeguard to safety immediately after going in. Rek'Sai can't tunnel out while unburrowed.

Dragon Kick has high base damage, a 200% bonus AD ratio, a knockback effect that equally damages everything that the target hits while in flight, and a 60 second cooldown at max rank without CDR. It is guaranteed to be up for every single teamfight, and then some.

Lee gets up to 25% free lifesteal and spellvamp. Rek'Sai's passive health recovery removes her ability to use her aforementioned melee-range true damage.

Rek'Sai is more balanced than Lee Sin—underpowered, even—and it really shows just how heavily and unhealthily Lee Sin is favored by Riot that they outright refuse to balance him. "Community outcry" is an overly shitty excuse; it's never stopped them before, so why only for Lee Sin?

FrikgeekFeb 10, 20152 votes

Rek'Sai is more balanced than Lee Sin—underpowered, even

Aaaand you just lost all your credibility. If Lee Sin had even half his kit combined with global pressure then maybe you'd have a point.

KijinxFeb 10, 20154 votes

yeah and if Rek'Sai could just kick people to death or away when shit turned bad, or do anything with her ult in combat, maybe you wouldn't be so dead wrong. If global pressure is such an OP trait why isn't Noc jung all the rage? before you give me some drivel about it's not global, neither is reks. She needs a tunnel to dash to, and if you're against an enemy rek and not doing tunnel control then you deserve to have her pop up everywhere.

I definitely wouldn't say Rek is UP, but she certainly has some clear weakness'. Which is more than what can be said about Lee

Grand ElevenFeb 10, 20152 votes

THe outcry was no louder than it was from a myriad of other champions that got nerfed anyway. It teems to me like they didn't really want Lee nerfed, so just put up some numbers knowing that the inevitable out pour would make a perfect excuse.

/tinfoil hat

deadlychuckFeb 10, 20151 votes

let's revert some of those changes and see how large of an outcry there is to not add the atk spd slow back on his E, or how relatively insignificant the change to his W was. Like seriously. The fact that when you nerf something there will always be people who complain about it, even if it's needed. The fact that there are constantly as many threads about lee sin's absurd dominance as there are is evidence that the majority agree he needs a nerf.

Lee Sin's design means you can learn the mechanics of one champion and be a complete dominating factor in every game. He isn't the only champion like this, but knowing how to play your character should be part of the battle, you should also know how to fight the enemy champion and how your specific skill set interacts with the enemies.

Reynard the ƒoxFeb 9, 201531 votes

10/10 spot on impression of Riot.

Zeke MaelstormFeb 9, 201518 votes

This deserves to be at the top of the boards.

KingsgraveFeb 9, 201518 votes

"We need to buff junglers that are weaker" "Lets increase Naut's late game shield and let Eve's E apply on hits" "Fixed"

Cenobite AzazielFeb 9, 20157 votes

I have a dream! And that dream is that Lee Sin will become a decent pick like the other junglers, with a clear weakness, and stop being a "Oh well I won't get countered anyway and I fit ANY teamcomp...".

Is it too hard to do that?

PengodFeb 9, 20152 votes

He is a decent pick. He has clear weaknesses and they're called wards. If you can just survive out the early game his damage won't be that much of a problem. Use your damn head and he won't be an issue. He's a playmaker, and no amount of nerfing his numbers will change that.

Orianna fits pretty much any team comp as well. No one QQ hypes on her.

Rock RockburghFeb 9, 20153 votes

I don't think I've ever actually seen a Lee (being sub-30 and all) but would this work in soloQ games? Even if you're playing the support, there's good odds that three people on your team will have little to no vision regardless of how many wards you place.

As for Orianna, nobody complains about her because she's mana-gated and because Zed overshadows her as a problematic midlaner. (Though he doesn't seem too horrible to me, but I've only laned against him once.)

Cenobite AzazielFeb 9, 20157 votes

{quoted}

He is a decent pick. He has clear weaknesses and they're called wards. If you can just survive out the early game his damage won't be that much of a problem. Use your damn head and he won't be an issue. He's a playmaker, and no amount of nerfing his numbers will change that.

Orianna fits pretty much any team comp as well. No one QQ hypes on her.

YOAH! The same thing that counter 95% of the champ roster? Please, tell me again, beside twitch, shaco e and eve, that can jungle, , who doesn't get affected by wards. Don't wanna be a party pooper but you know that lee can gap closer in a instant with Q and W right? ganking via lane? And deal so much damage that you can compare it with a full runes damage/ap shaco?

Please, show me where his damage fall off, with high base damage and high escaling damage. His utility sure doesn't.

I have no problem with lee sin having mobility or early power. The problem is that he doesn't pay up for it like other jungler. He doesn't have a clear weakness. He isn't squishy, can fit any comp, there is no kit that hardcounters him. He doesn't pay for his mistakes.

You can engage and kill a off pick oriana. She can slow you, get a ms boost if you are melee and maybe ult you (that is dodgleable). She has no displacement. Lee can thrive in your jungle and has 2 escapes and a hard desengage that can potencially knock up any chasers. No counterplay ult.

"Geez, I'm in the wrong place, wrong time? Not at all!Now I'm the right place!

"Late game TF? No problem, I can insec even if I miss my Q and hit a nearby creep, swap the backline with the front line, CC them and trade the jungler for the adc... why are crying shaco? "

A similar ofender with such safe game is tristana. But tristana is squishy and pays up for her safety and late game with her early/mid game.

Just give him a weakness or turn every other jungler into a generalist.

Edit:

Ah, possible weakness?

Q cost more energy and is refunded if hit. or
Q isn't a skill shot now. It has reduced range. ( contex: harder to poke for free damage, can't jump into someone withou vision, need to burn his trinket to get vision for Q, being better using safeguard for the same purpose.
Hard hopping is removed from the game. You want awesome mobility? PRay that you have decent teamates. (colateral damage, kat isn't so safe anymore)
R is a skill shot, similar to seijuani Q.
R is just a knock up instead of a displacement
His R affect only the target. No free CC and damage vs the whole team

coppinslingerFeb 9, 20156 votes

I'm sick and tired of this Lee Circle-jerk.

Yes, Lee is strong, yes he has a lot of options and potential built into his kit. Yes he can be frustrating to play against at times. Is he overpowered broken freelo? No. Not in casual play and not in competitive play.

Multiple champions are much stronger than Lee Sin right now - Jarvan and Vi in particular. In casual play, I'd even rank Pantheon and Fiddlesticks higher than him. A skilled player on "lower-tier" champions like Warwick, Udyr, Master Yi, Sejuani, Amumu, etc. will often outclass a Lee in casual play. I've been a jungle main for 2 seasons and I have never ever been scared of Lee Sin. In fact, I get excited because I know that the person playing Lee is likely on the "Lee Sin Freelo" hype train and probably isn't a jungle main and is just picking the champ because they were forced to jungle.

I COMPELETELY AGREE THAT LEE IS RELATIVELY STRONG RIGHT NOW. But I personally think he's in a good spot, not overpowered. Other champions should be given tools to compete with his power instead. Instead of just begging for Lee Sin nerfs, can we actually add something constructive to the conversation? People get way too riled up about "OMG NO JUNGLE DIVERSITY, OMG RIOT WHY YOU NERF JUNGLE????" Honestly, all I play is jungle, and I've had more fun in it this season than I ever had! I feel strong on Tanks, Bruiser, and Carry junglers, and although the bruiser class might be the strongest at the moment, it's something that can easily be improved on to create more equality between the classes.

So let's please stop crying and circle-jerking about Lee Sin and actually try to create some constructive criticism.

And in regards to the current jungle changes (especially the increase of jungle-item cost), they have overall HURT Lee Sin relative to other junglers. Lee gets extremely low on his first-clear and can barely clear 3 camps before he needs to back. Almost every other champion can clear 4 camps or clear 3 and then gank. I can clear every camp in the jungle TWICE on NAUTILUS and MALPHITE before backing for god's sake. So yeah, Riot is taking steps to tone down Lee's power relative to other junglers. Are they done yet? No. Is crying about nerfing Lee Sin going to solve anything? No. So please, stop frustrating me by up-voting "NERF LEE OMG!!!!" posts to the top of boards everday.

If you disagree with my opinion, please, respond with some arguments. I do nothing but Jungle, so I'm always game for some banter about the current state of Jungle balance.

Kowe The EwokFeb 9, 201518 votes

The point is not that Lee Sin is severely overpowered. The point is that he is commonly used to measure wether the jungle is balanced. Meanwhile Riot seems to forget that he has great clearspeed and sustain, while having great ganks.

Many champions don't have have half of that earlygame presence since they#re much more lategame orientated.

However Riot balances the jungle for earlygame, not for lategame. meaning that these champions which already struggle early on fall so insanely behind that they're completely unable to catch up.

P.S: Being able to clear the camps doesn't make you a good jungler. Counterjungling and the ability to gank feature in.

With the recent jungle changes many champion are too far behind in levels and too low on health to be a help for their team

coppinslingerFeb 9, 20156 votes

The point is that he is commonly used to measure whether the jungle is balanced.

Well I'm not sure if you mean by the community's standards or by Riot's standards. In either case I don't think this is true. I doubt that Riot bases their entire balance scheme around 1 champion. Although it might be amusing for us to think so.

Riot seems to forget that he has great clearspeed and sustain while having great ganks

They didn't. Lee (and other early-game pressure junglers like Elise, Evelyn, and Kha'zix) are largely the reason why the Jungle monsters were made to be harder to clear. So that champions couldn't just itemize damage, full-clear the jungle, and gank without any trade-offs. Now those trade-offs do exist! I think you overestimate Lee's "clearspeed and sustain." His clear is decent, but his sustain is garbage. A 40 damage shield and 5% life-steal and spell-vamp for 4 seconds is barely noticeable. It eases up pretty quick into the mid-game, but Lee gets beaten up really hard by the jungle-monsters early on. Lee's early presence is nothing what is used to be. It is still relatively strong, yes, but not as strong as it once was.

Many champions don't have half of that earlygame presence since they're much more lategame orientated

Well, that's sort of the point isn't it? Lee is made to be an early-game champ, and others are supposed to shine in the mid and late game. Is Lee's power relatively too strong early game compared to the late-game pay-off of other champions? Perhaps, but I don't think this is something that can't be fixed by turning a few nobs. Some other champions could use some light buffs, or the jungle could be changed in some small ways to benefit champions who don't itemize damage early. (EX. Tier 2/3 jungle item passive damage buffed so that defensive junglers can keep up in farm, while Junglers who itemize damage gain relatively little in terms of clear-speed).

The solution isn't in nerfing Lee Sin, but elsewhere. And even then, the problem is largely overstated.

However Riot Balances the jungle for the earlygame, not the lategame.

I don't believe this is true. Riot has taken many anti-snowballing measures in Season 3 and Season 4, making the game overall less oriented towards the early-game. The game will likely always have a tendency to favor early-pressure champions however because gaining early leads are the best way to win games. I don't think Riot is focused on "balancing around the earlygame," just that the game in general favors early-game champions in its inherent design. Riot may have some work to do here, but again nerfing Lee Sin probably isn't the solution.

Kowe The EwokFeb 9, 201511 votes

Well, history proves my point. Enchantment broken on Warwick, J4 an Xin? Nerf the Enchantment!

Lee can gank at level 2? Empower the monsters!

I feel like you underrate Lees sustain... Or maybe you simply play only junglers with high sustain? Who knows.

You ignoredthe main point. The part where I said "too far behind to catch up".

Of cause there are champions which are strong in earlygame and those which are strong in lategame.

But there is a significant difference between having a bad earlygame and having no chance to keep up with the enemy jungler. (Try Eve....)

They balanced the jungle for the earlygame, they even said so that they wanted to avoid early ganks. Which kinda maces sense: At a point (mid/lategame) everybody can clear the jungle easily.

But that exactly means that champions who fall too far behind early on can't catch up. They don't gain an advantage later on. They're too far behind to be properly geared for teamfights and their level-scaling might bring them in a better relative spot IF WE DO NOT CONSIDER ITEMS.

However - at this point due to the significant difference in jungle performance the enemy jungler is far ahead.

(Again, just look at Eve vs Lee)

coppinslingerFeb 9, 20156 votes

History proves my point Enchantment broken on Warwick, J4 an Xin? Nerf the Enchantment!

Lee can gank at level 2? Empower the monsters!

I'm not sure what point that is at this point.

I feel like you underate Lee's sustain.

It's a 40 damage shield and 5% lifesteal/spellvamp for 4 seconds. It's nothing. A million other champions have better sustain.

J4 - Shield and Armor from E passive. Vi - Shield Passive. 10% max health. that's 60+ damage at lvl 1 and scales way better with further levels. Pantheon - Passive Amumu - Damage reduction on E passive Nautilus - Massive shield Malphite - Massive shield and AS slow Sejuani - Gains armor when slowing enemies Hecarim - W heal, which is twice as much as Lee shield at lvl 1.

It's not just that I play high-sustain junglers, almost every other jungler in the game has better sustain than Lee.

You ignored the main point. The part where I said "too far behind to catch up."

I conceded that maybe Lee's power early game is possibly stronger than the pay-off that other champions get for sticking out to the late game.

I disagreed that nerfing Lee is the solution.

Moreover, I don't feel that Lee's early-game power is so overwhelming that I can't utilize other champions strengths in the mid-game to turn games around. This may just be my personal opinion as somebody who literally only plays jungle, and who has played tanks, carries, and bruisers in the jungle. I feel I have a lot of experience in facing Lee Sin on a variety of champions and don't find his current power overwhelming. As I said before though, this may just be my opinion and it is entirely possible that Lee could be relatively too strong early. I think nerfing Lee will just make him unplayable though. I don't want a cycle of nerfs to be the way to approach every balance problem in League.

They balanced the jungle for the earlygame, they even said so that they wanted to avoid early ganks. Which kinda maces sense:

Now I understand what you are saying. I agree that they tried to make some balance changes in regards to the early game as they saw the early-game being too influential in the game. But I think we can all agree that those changes were beneficial in most cases. In fact, most of those changes hurt Lee more than other champions.

But that exactly means that champions who fall too far behind early on can't catch up.

Yes, that happens for EVERY role in the game. I think you may mean that jungle is relatively more punishing. To that I say no, it's not. The jungle isn't as hard to clear as everybody cries about. It takes some figuring out, but it is really easy to keep up in levels and gold, even when your team is behind, and even if you are playing junglers other than Lee Sin and Jarvan.

You also brought up Eve as an example. Everyone agrees that champion is straight garbage. Using her out of the 20 or so possible jungle champions is a straw-man argument.

Icy AuronFeb 9, 20156 votes

Did you just say 25% lifesteal AND spellvamp (more than item 3072 , item 3146 , item 3152 , etc.) IN ADDITION TO a shield is nothing? Yeah, I'm not even gonna pretend to read the rest of that post.

PengodFeb 9, 20151 votes

Enchantment broken on Warwick, J4 an Xin? Nerf the Enchantment!

What enchant, Devourer? I almost never saw that on J4. Xin was great with Warrior too. Warwick was crazy with it. But they nerfed both WW and the enchant.

But there is a significant difference between having a bad earlygame and having no chance to keep up with the enemy jungler. (Try Eve....)

Again, 59% winrate. Eve has plenty of chances to keep up. Sorry you have to actually try in order to make a champ work.

They balanced the jungle for the earlygame, they even said so that they wanted to avoid early ganks.

How is that balancing? If they want to avoid early ganks, then how does someone get ahead? By farming, which if you have a harder time clearing cuz of your kit, they literally made a jungle item that makes your smite assist in farming.

They're too far behind to be properly geared for teamfights and their level-scaling might bring them in a better relative spot IF WE DO NOT CONSIDER ITEMS. However - at this point due to the significant difference in jungle performance the enemy jungler is far ahead. (Again, just look at Eve vs Lee)

But they still have a shot. If they got some farm and such, lee Sin's damage does fall off, if you build damage you're very squishy and you can't rely on your kit to both save you and make a sweet play due to the fact he uses energy and you won't have enough. Mostly he has his kit later in the game that is effective. You can't nerf that unless you change it, and with his popularity in both Solo Q and professional play, that won't happen.

Bears Dont CareFeb 9, 20154 votes

But they still have a shot. If they got some farm and such, lee Sin's damage does fall off, if you build damage you're very squishy and you can't rely on your kit to both save you and make a sweet play due to the fact he uses energy and you won't have enough. Mostly he has his kit later in the game that is effective. You can't nerf that unless you change it, and with his popularity in both Solo Q and professional play, that won't happen.

Um.. Lee Sin has around 480% total AD scaling and omething of around 700+ base damage with an 8% missing health execute Suggesting he falls off late game is nonsensical, because everyone falls off when they don't build damage. Ever been hit by a full AD Lee Sin? It hurts..

A ton.

DengedenFeb 11, 20151 votes

Ok, ok, last time I'm saying this: Yes, it hurts but this only works when his Q isn't interrupted. (In which case he does nothing) Q's 2nd activation does missing health damage, meaning if he initiates, that portion of the ability does next to nothing. If he flies in with 0 defensive stats, he's gonna get blown up and honestly, you have ample time to do that. Like most assassins, there are plenty of items that help against his kit item 3092 , item 3069 , item 3157 , item 3153 in general item 3026 , item 3102 (kinda) and item 3190 , item 3072 if he doesn't go full damage.

Killer X 12Feb 10, 20153 votes

As Kowe stated, not only does history prove his point, but if you've been around here long enough and actually read the Riot Dev blogs you'll see that the reasons for many of their jungle decisions revolve around whether or not Lee Sin (And similar champions) can abuse it or not. If lee was just not in the game, the jungle would be much different.

DecaedeusFeb 9, 20159 votes

Since you seem to be a reasonable person and not a "hurhurhur XXX freelo" person, let me ask you a reasonable question. What is Lee Sin's weakness?

While not the strongest poker, Sonic Wave does an appreciable amount of damage at range, and he can disengage for his team in a siege composition. Lee Sin not only has two CCs, he has a wardjump mobility tool and can use his Q as an escape, giving him a total of four escape or engage tools. Lee Sin has absurd base damages on all of his abilities, while also scaling incredibly well. Lee Sin is resourceless, and suffers little from donating his blue to mid, as opposed to Elise, or even Jarvan, who can manachoke.

I don't think Lee Sin is overpowered, it's just that he lacks meaningful weaknesses opponents can play around, while having strengths across the board. That's, personally, my issue with Lee. His kit is so overloaded with everything, making him a universal pick that ruins diversity.

Thoughts?

coppinslingerFeb 9, 20151 votes

His kit is so overloaded with everything, making him a universal pick that ruins diversity.

I'll start here. In competitive play, I completely agree with you. But he is only part of the champion pool that limits diversity in competitive picks overall. That's another pie altogether, but because I play casually, I'd prefer to turn the rest of this discussion towards that topic.

In casual play, I don't think Lee Sin is choking out diversity at all. In fact, I believe that just about any "traditional" jungler except maybe Evelyn can be played in SoloQ and can win games consistently if you play according to champion strengths.

What is Lee Sin's weakness

This is where I think a lot of people misinterpret Lee. I'll start with the obvious, but often overlooked change in Season 5.

Lee has a relatively difficult time staying healthy during his early-jungle clears. Thus he is has limited opportunities to use his strongest period of the game (early-game) effectively. This isn't season 4 where Lee could go and gank, and if he screwed up, could turn around and full-clear his jungle and try again. Now, if Lee ganks at inopportune times, or focuses on farming when he should be ganking, he will be punished. This trade-off actually exists now.
Lee lacks linear strengths. Yes, he has MANY options. He has a lot of tools at his disposal. However, it isn't always clear how he can combine these tools to make powerful plays. As such, it takes a lot of lot of experience on Lee's part to abuse his mechanics correctly. Players can easily play against Lee's most power/linear tools (IE, Insec Kick and Early Ganks) by either warding or grouping. In such circumstances, Lee is instantly pressured to become more creative with his mechanics to become useful. It may be hard to pin him down specifically, but does it really matter if you can turn around and kill the rest of his team after?

Lee is a jack-of-all-trades but master of none. He can do all things well but can't do any one-thing amazingly consistently.

To compare with other strong champions right now - Vi and Jarvan. Jarvan and Vi both have relatively safer and faster early clears (Both with arguably better neutral monster control and objective control as well). Moreover, their power is very straight-forward - dive into the enemy team and press all their buttons over the carry. They can rely on their tankiness and teamates to follow up on their initial burst of damage and lock-down. This linear power is extremely valuable because it means that people playing these champs can unlock their champion's potential MUCH more easily than Lee Sin players can.

So to conclude, Lee Sin doesn't really have clear weaknesses. Instead, his weakness persay is that he lacks a category at which he can decisively be better than other champions. As such, he relies on his ability to do all things well enough to win games. However, I can lock in J4, Vi, Pantheon, or Fiddlesticks, have a much clearer gameplan on how to win the game, and effectively abuse my strengths better than Lee Sin can abuse his.

I understand this may be confusing, but I hope it helps explain why I think Lee is over-hyped. Yes he can do a lot of things well. But he is always outclassed in every category by some other champion. As such, it is difficult for Lee Sin to correctly use his kit to make powerful plays in the same way that other champions can.

mjack33Feb 9, 20154 votes

{quoted}

I'll start here. In competitive play, I completely agree with you. But he is only part of the champion pool that limits diversity in competitive picks overall. That's another pie altogether, but because I play casually, I'd prefer to turn the rest of this discussion towards that topic.

In casual play, I don't think

:( The rest of your argument goes down the drain when you say the champion is too good at the highest skill level and admit that he kills diversity.

Needing a high level of skill to be broken and being fine in casual play are too completely separate things. The main issue with Lee Sin is that no matter what you are about to go up against, EVEN IN CASUAL PLAY, Lee Sin is never a bad pick for the jungle. Once something reaches the level where it's the default jack of all trades unless you have a really good reason to go elsewhere, that IS a problem.

Celeste BenalFeb 9, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Lee has a relatively difficult time staying healthy during his early-jungle clears. Thus he is has limited opportunities to use his strongest period of the game (early-game) effectively. This isn't season 4 where Lee could go and gank, and if he screwed up, could turn around and full-clear his jungle and try again. Now, if Lee ganks at inopportune times, or focuses on farming when he should be ganking, he will be punished. This trade-off actually exists now.

I tried Lee over the weekend. I found his early-game sustain and clear speed to be on par with warwick because of his passive energy regen, W protection+lifesteal, and endless abilities on ridiculously short cooldowns. Q in, AA twice, W, AAx2, W again, AAx2, E, AAx2, E again AAx2.. ad infinitum.

I think he would be less awesome if his passive did not return energy, and he could not ward hop.

coppinslingerFeb 9, 20152 votes

Early-game sustain and clear speed to be on par with warwick

I don't know why I even post on the boards.

Bears Dont CareFeb 9, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I don't know why I even post on the boards.

His sustain isn't on par with WW, but his clear speed is far superior. He has just enough sustain that by the time he hits level 3 he will have 75% of his health left, and he can get more while clearing crab so that he'll be at near full health. Something most junglers cannot do at all.

coppinslingerFeb 9, 20151 votes

The condition you are voicing is that you can have 75%+ health at lvl 3 (after clearing crab).

I can do this on.

Pantheon, Hecarim, Malphite, Cho'gath, Malphite, Mao'kai, Master Yi, Nunu, Rek'sai, Volibear and OTHERS

Some junglers HAVE to back after their first few camps. Many don't. Lee is not alone in this and his ability to survive the first clear is not unique at all.

Bears Dont CareFeb 9, 20152 votes

{quoted}

The condition you are voicing is that you can have 75%+ health at lvl 3 (after clearing crab).

I can do this on.

Pantheon, Hecarim, Malphite, Cho'gath, Malphite, Mao'kai, Master Yi, Nunu, Rek'sai, Volibear and OTHERS

Some junglers HAVE to back after their first few camps. Many don't. Lee is not alone in this and his ability to survive the first clear is not unique at all.

Most junglers have to back primarily because they will have used up their potions and so a gank is risky. Lee Sin will finish his first clear with 1 pot in hand. I believe Master Yi and Rek'sai can as well. The majority, however, can't risk doing an early gank, and also do not have the tools to do so until level 6.

PengodFeb 9, 20154 votes

What do you run on Lee Sin??? Or, what do you do for abilities? I've always been able to do a clear, and then gank before having to back. His W is great for this new jungle.

He isn't overpowered, his kit is just very good and allows you to do great things. I don't think giving him lower numbers would do a lot. You'd have to make Lee have the absolute worst numbers in the whole game and just completely destroy him, before he is unpopular. Even then, he'll probably be like Kass and people will find a way to make him work. His kit just brings a lot.

coppinslingerFeb 9, 20153 votes

I run AD marks and quints, armor seals, and MR glyphs. 21/9/0 masteries. Pretty standard as far as I'm concerned. I can get to around 50-60% health after 2 buffs + 1 camp and a good leash. I usually find it risky to gank at this low of health, but taking a break to do the scuttle, and then ganking is probably an option.

And yes, I agree he isn't overpowered. His kit is great, but just straight nerfing him will make him more difficult to play than he already is. I don't want him to become the next Elise or Evelyn. He is in a good spot right now, we can work with it. Some tuning to other champs and the jungle would be more effective at "promoting diversity."

Mind you, I think that many champs are stronger in the jungle than the community lets on. The stereotype that only J4 and Lee can clear the jungle while still having pressure/ganking is entirely false.

PengodFeb 9, 20151 votes

I play Eve a lot now, she really is very fun. Not that bad if you learn to play her.

Also yes, there are plenty. Skarner is a good example. Good low cost spam for clear and has good ganks, especially at lvl 6. Also Sejuani.

VDc0zCqe0wFeb 9, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I run AD marks and quints, armor seals, and MR glyphs. 21/9/0 masteries. Pretty standard as far as I'm concerned. I can get to around 50-60% health after 2 buffs + 1 camp and a good leash. I usually find it risky to gank at this low of health, but taking a break to do the scuttle, and then ganking is probably an option.

And yes, I agree he isn't overpowered. His kit is great, but just straight nerfing him will make him more difficult to play than he already is. I don't want him to become the next Elise or Evelyn. He is in a good spot right now, we can work with it. Some tuning to other champs and the jungle would be more effective at "promoting diversity."

Mind you, I think that many champs are stronger in the jungle than the community lets on. The stereotype that only J4 and Lee can clear the jungle while still having pressure/ganking is entirely false.

yo you're wasting your time, every day there are 2-3 topics about Lee Sin or Zed (and no topic about Thresh, wich i don't understand why since he's the Lee Sin or the Zed of supports)

i swear if people stopped whining about those champions, and focused on asking buffs or reworks for their counterparts, we wouldn't have this situation

coppinslingerFeb 9, 20151 votes

Sadly, you're right.

I wonder how Riot feels about how their forums react/talk about. Literally so much negativity towards the current state of balance and so little appreciation for the changes Riot makes that actually do make the game more enjoyable.

I'm loving the Season 5 jungle. It took a while to learn, but now that I got the ropes, it's tons of fun. I can play literally any champion I want and do well. But people aren't willing to put in the time to learn this jungle and would rather just complain. And for some reason they want to complain about one specific champion, that they don't play, and probably when they don't even main jungle.

Sigh.

VDc0zCqe0wFeb 9, 20152 votes

well i don't honestly jungle, but i don't have any prob with Lee (and i never had any), but sometimes the hate is too strong, like people want Lee or Zed to be useless, and i honestly don't understand this

like, i feel there's a favoritism in this forum or simply people don't understand: there was an uproar to the Sona nerfs (and i'm perfectly fine with that since i felt like the last ones weren't deserved, thankfully they are changing them, at least the 325 MS wich doesn't make sense), but whenever i bring up Zyra's problems i get downvoted or i get told that she's fine etc...wich is stupid to say, she may be fine in soloq (and not even that much), but she's clearly subpar (i still play her because i've played her too much and she's fun)

but you know, let's make the 37th topic about nerfing lee sin l0l

GaleWinUnleashedFeb 9, 20152 votes

We're well past the 37th "LEE SIN OP, QQ, NERF PLOX" topic by now.

CerbearusFeb 9, 20155 votes

Dont forget, the second that a ranged champion was used in the jungle by pros, Riot made it nearly impossible for most ranged champs to jungle anymore (5 soft resets before hard reset from 10)

ChocmercFeb 9, 20154 votes

all in favor of coining the term "Lee Sin Bar" like the old standby for toplane, Renekton Bar? ;)

iainB85Feb 9, 20153 votes

#LC$BigPlays

CooLTanGFeb 9, 20153 votes

I still don't get it, if they want junglers to stay in the jungle longer, then make jungle mobs have huge health pools and deal way less damage. Simple!

SuperdumFeb 9, 20151 votes

Riot has said multiple times if lee and Jarvin get nerfed, then you would see vi and rengar in every game, then more nerfs would happen and people will see the same two junglers again. The new jungle changes basically nerfed tanks, which led to people seeing more bruisers, the meta barely shifted. Riot need to completely change the jungle in a huge way for the meta to be more different.

Kowe The EwokFeb 9, 20152 votes

Well, if they nerfed them too much.

Some people tends to forget the word balance in balancing.

Riot simply tends to overshoot e.g. Olaf Skarner Evelynn .

With healthy balancing there'ld at leats be Lee, J4 Rengar and Vi instead of just 2 out of 4. With healthier balancing including buffs we might even see more...

SuperdumFeb 9, 20151 votes

True, what kind of healthy balance did you have in mind, that even riot might consider?