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Nautilius , Eve , Skaner > I would say buffs in good direction but still not enough . Let's discuss

XuWarrior··17 votes·2,377 views

Im platinum player. English is not my native language but i hope you will understand my points .

Evelynn(role , power spike , etc ?) : *early pressure

*mid-game power spike

*late game fall off

Evelynn after buffs:

*She still suffer at early game, there is no pressure from her. There is no spirit stone. She loosin tons of HP . She needs back to base very often. (so give her more hp / more EARLY DMG . Un nerf Q dmg or something)

*She got now even more mid game power spike -> Very good direction

*Late game fall off

I woudl like to Riot work on her early game where she shoudl shine. There is no SoTel, there is no HP regen for her . Her Early pressure compare to other very good junglers sux.

Skarner:

Very good buff direction. But what I would like to suggest UN-Nerf his Q dmg. There is no SoTeL in game . Skarner is walkin CC champion. It's Ok-ish. But compare to other tanks his dmg is rlly low. At old Jungle you could bypass that , build Sotel + Tri Force and he was Ok ish tanky + dmg ?

discuss

Nautilius :

Also very good buff Direction. But here is my questiion.

Why Riot ignoring suggestion from community.

Live : Nautilus surrounds himself with dark energies, gaining a shield that blocks incoming damage. While the shield persists, his attacks apply a damage over time effect to enemies around his target.

change While the shield persists for Even his shield is gone his attacks continue apply a DoT .

I have no Idea if that change make him OP . But Test it Please :) ?

Let's discuss. And yes I know Riot doing baby steps.

tldr; They Did not solve core problems of Nautilius , Eve , Skarner . Eve has no pressure early no dmg or loosin too mutch HP . Skarner has no DMG , they need un nerf his last "stange Q NERF" , Nautilius They need to change his W DoT or shift it to other spell , he will never win 1vs1 or 2vs2 skirmish , the shield DoT is BAD

46 Comments

Abyssphere10 votes

I agree. I looked at the patch notes and all of the buffs are so tiny. I can understand not wanting to overbuff but really, a vaguely stronger shield will not solve Naut's problems, 25 extra damage to monsters on Elise won't solve her problems and the Evelynn changes don't seem to even try to address the problems with her. The passive change feels like a nerf more than anything, and the on-hit thing to Ravage feels creative but sounds impractical.

Right now it feels like Riot is handing out buffs for the sake of saying they buffed the worse junglers, but without the intention of actually making them better.

SpecterVonBaren2 votes

{quoted}

I agree. I looked at the patch notes and all of the buffs are so tiny. I can understand not wanting to overbuff but really, a vaguely stronger shield will not solve Naut's problems, 25 extra damage to monsters on Elise won't solve her problems and the Evelynn changes don't seem to even try to address the problems with her. The passive change feels like a nerf more than anything, and the on-hit thing to Ravage feels creative but sounds impractical.

Right now it feels like Riot is handing out buffs for the sake of saying they buffed the worse junglers, but without the intention of actually making them better.

Kinda like the zac "buff" a while back where he gets more blobs for hitting multiple champions with E, as if you have time to pick up blobs if you've launched yourself into more than one person since that likely means it's late game and you just initiated a teamfight.

junglerboy162 votes

The shield change for Nautilus is actually a nerf of roughly 20-30 for levels 4-10 if you max it first (which is normal in the jungle). Adding bonus health into the mix before level 11 makes the difference even more obvious, at roughly 100 less shield for most levels with 700 Bonus health.

Oysteroth2 votes

Not only that, but the biggest thematic problem he has (the fact that he's swinging a giant anchor and doing 0 dmg) has gone completely unaddressed. They just buffed Sejuani to do scary amounts of damage, so why can't naut? I would be fine with a little bit of utility loss if he would just deal a little damage.

junglerboy162 votes

Thing is, he WOULD deal damage if they finally made his DoT effect not connected to the shield being destroyed.

rinsujo1 votes

Had to go back and re-read the Eve changes to figure out what you were talking about on her Passive - all of the context seems to point it out as a straight buff. Either they misread too, or it's a Typo. 1% MAXIMUM mana regen to 2% MISSING mana regen. Can anyone confirm that either of these is potentially incorrect?

E proccing on hit effects means build devourer. It's a midgame buff.

(And why do the boards keep moving me over to EUW? I can't post there. Anyone else got that bug? Know how to fix it?)

Sightless662 votes

You're probably moving to EUW because you're looking at the patch notes on the EUW section. That switches you EUW. That's often the cause, and it's easy to do if you get the links from other people or from reddit.

rinsujo1 votes

Google search, but i wasn't paying attention to what server i clicked. Thanks, that makes it a lot easier to fix.

XuWarrior7 votes

They Did not solve core problems of Nautilius , Eve , Skaner . Eve has no pressure early no dmg or loosin too mutch HP . Skarner has no DMG , they need un nerf his last "stanger Q NERF" , Nautilius They need to change his W DoT or shift to other spell , he will never win 1vs1 or 2vs2 skirmish , the shield DoT is BAD

Jamnon1 votes

Nautilius: there is no reason having a DoT sepperate from the shield can't be a thing. Wouldn't be op at all considering his lack of mobility.

Eve: the new jungle crushes her. She was nerfed too hard.

Skarner: no reason to pick him when you can go Fiddlesticks.

Sozan55 votes

I'd say: wait and see before asking for more buffs.

We have already seen smaller changes to put champion over the top, not necessarily because the buffs are great, but I am sure that they will be played more now - and who knows, maybe someone will find an effective build or a way to utilize their strength better. It have happened before (Twitch being the most recent and best example - as he didn't even get a buff that time).

Not saying it will happen for sure, but it's best to wait. I like that the Riot finally started giving small buffs and nerfs over the course of multiple patches rather than "Olafing" champions.

Sightless662 votes

We have already seen smaller changes to put champion over the top, not necessarily because the buffs are great, but I am sure that they will be played more now - and who knows, maybe someone will find an effective build or a way to utilize their strength better.

Well, we rarely see changes this small put champions over the top generally, and we almost never see it when the buffs are A. tangental to primary strengths (Eve) B. small reductions of heavy past nerfs or C. meant to correct for itemization losses (Hec, Skarner).

The way we usually see small changes put champions over the top is if it is either the crowing buff in a long series of small buffs over a very long time, or if it is long after a very minor nerf and/or a meta shift that took the champion out of play. Twitch was a good example of this.

As for finding new effective builds and whatnot: this is really very rare in this game. I'm not counting on it. I'm more than willing to bet.

If they actually look at these champions again within the next 4 months, I'll be impressed. I'm not counting on it. They've abandoned Nautilus, Skarner and Hecarim before, more than once each, after buffing them then rapidly nerfing them back down. I'm not convinced their slow buff policy is justified here.

Kingsgrave5 votes

Skarner needs health scaling on his W with higher MS bonuses Hecarim needs the damage reduct vs Monsters removed on his Q with a lower CD on his E Nautilus needs his W damage halved with no shield and his E to deal more damage per wave Evelynn needs her Q to heal her and possibly her E to steal resists Elise needs Spider Q to be buffed vs monsters and Spider W to be better in general

item 3709 item 3717 item 3721 item 3725 needs to give % bonus health like Ancient Golem gave in S4

Messaiga2 votes

Percentage HP increase on an item should not be jungle exclusive, Skarner doesn't need to be tankier (he needs better sustained damage). Everything else I agree with somewhat.

Karn Bishop5 votes

The mana buff on eve is actually a nerf due to how it works, it used to scale off of TOTAL mana, now it scales off of MIsSSING mana, basically its a net negative for 99% of the time when used.

qetzel2 votes

Untrue. It is nowworse than the old passive until you reach 50% mana, at this point, it is the same. After this point it becomes better. If Eve spends most of her time at low mana then it is a buff.

Jamnon2 votes

And if she has blue, then it is a nerf.

qetzel1 votes

True, but one of the concerns that I have heard is that she needed blue even after the first clear (which obviously she couldn't have because apparently it belongs to the midlaner). I think this change will lower her dependency on blue and make her (after the first clear) fine without it.

junglerboy163 votes

I think that for Nautilus the best way to bridge the gap between Riot wanting "counter play by being able to destroy his damage with his shield" and us players not wanting to be as punished by its weakness would be to make the DoT effect get reduced by 50% once the shield breaks. This keeps the same gameplay of "break the shield to keep him from killing you" while not being so "I feel useless because my shield broke in 3 seconds"

That, and they should buff his base AS at least a little, like 0.613 up to 0.625, and AS per level from 1% to 1.3%. This would only change his level 18 AS from 0.717 to 0.763, not a huge buff, but just a bit of help.

aaronconlin1 votes

I agree, his attack speed is painfully slow

Skia Asteri3 votes

The E change greatly helps Evelynn when starting Krugs, as it gives two stacks towards a stun. By about one health pot worth of HP. Krugs (smite) > Razorbeaks > Red (smite). No leash, only used one of the two starting pots and ended up just slightly lower than doing the same using two pots before the change.

With a decent leash a gank after red would likely be possible.

Now they just need to buff her when starting blue side, as she still gets low if you are not doing a lot of kiting (worse clear time) and can be easily counter jungled if she has a predicable route. Changing E to magic damage would help, as monsters have negative magic resist and on blue side the issue is the large monsters are fairly tanky.

junglerboy161 votes

They also severely nerfed jungle kiting, since you can only soft leash 5 times now instead of 10

aaronconlin3 votes

The Nautilus buff seems like a little bit of a double edged sword. His late-game shields will be a lot stronger, but his early game shields will be weaker. Having a weaker shield early game means that Nautilus will be able to either spend less time in the jungle before recalling, or that his jungle clear will go slower, he may need more potions etc.

To compensate, I propose the scaling on the damage of his auto attacks while the shield is active be changed to %HP (% bonus HP or Max, doesn't matter), instead of scaling with AP.

qetzel3 votes

I believe that the reason Riot doesn't want to buff Eve's early game is because she is a problem at that stage due to her passive. Sure, you can use pink wards to spot her ganks but 100g early game is massive, giving the team with Evelynn on a significant advantage when she is strong. I don't believe that Riot has a problem with her mid or late game. They are giving her a way to get to the late game (the mana regen) and a way to do more while there (E applying on hit effects).

Skarner's kit does not seem fair if he is able to also deal damage. To be able to pull someone out of position AND have them at a low health by the time they get there is a little bit too strong. Perhaps a better idea would be to give him the Shyvana treatment. More Q damage to monsters.

Nautilus not dealing damage after the shield is to introduce counterplay. It gives nautilus the capability of dealing more damage than other CC tanks BUT to give the enemy a way of dealing with it (break the shield). I believe that Riot's direction with Nautilus is the right way to go.

Finally, remember how strong all of these champions were at one point. Riot said that these changes were intended to be small. If any more buffs are needed then these champions will get them eventually, but they have to be careful not to OVERbuff.

APrinnyDood3 votes

Skarner's kit does not seem fair if he is able to also deal damage. To be able to pull someone out of position AND have them at a low health by the time they get there is a little bit too strong.

Is it actually though? That's how he was before the rework. Much more damage. Wasn't unfair. Besides, he can't get someone to a low health right after a pull. That's just not possible. He has absolutely no burst, just sustained damage, and he has to be fighting for a bit before his sustained damage actually ramps up. Given all that, wouldn't it be fair for his damage ramp-up to ramp up to some damage that doesn't completely suck?

He doesn't need more monster damage. Clearing isn't his problem, and he's never going to be a pure powerfarmer like Shyv. He needs one of three things: more sustained damage, better sustained cc, or some help with his initiation. Something to make him less of a "I'm mediocre at everything" pick.

Eve's mana regen thing is kind of iffy to me. It's better at below 50% mana and worse above it, but she burns mana fast enough that staying out at low mana values can make fighting impossible. Keeping yourself near high-mana values is more valuable I think. I'm not entirely convinced the mana change is a significant buff. The on hit is nice... but really nothing special.

The Naut change is pretty good. Probably not enough, but we'll see.

If any more buffs are needed then these champions will get them eventually,

See, this part I don't really like because that's just what they said when they buffed Naut in seasons 3/4 and reworked Skarner. And how did it turn out? They got left untouched for many months. I don't like this "eventually". I'd much rather Riot be more willing to experiment with buffs. I don't really care if someone becomes a little too strong for one patch. I know Riot will address that instantly for these types of champions. I trust them very deeply to not let Skarner be too strong. I don't trust them not to leave him in a "we're seeing how the small and insignificant buff is turning out" phase for the next six months.

I do remember how strong these champions have been in the past. I also remember how long it's been (well, not that long for Eve, but mainly for the other two). I'm not really too concerned about the risks of them maybe seeing a spotlight again.

qetzel1 votes

I believe that Riot thought that his previous play pattern wasn't fair, and so nerfed it. Because he was weak, they then reworked him. I may be misremembering though. I would say that he is currently the best "get into my team, lone adc" champion at the moment. The shield buff solidifies this defining trait.

On Eve, if she was at low mana in the jungle before (which she was) then this change only benefits her. I don't think having the passive make her effectively manaless ("near high-mana values") is a good idea.

APrinnyDood3 votes

I believe that Riot thought that his previous play pattern wasn't fair, and so nerfed it. Because he was weak, they then reworked him. I may be misremembering though.

Are you talking about Skarner? The way he worked was that they hated the permaslow, and they hated his gaining exponential power from fighting due to his passive. They rework him once, remove the permaslow, and don't support the passive. He sucks and is boring. They rework him again. Add CC and remove his old passive. He's decent for a patch. Still boring. Then he gets nerfed really hard. Now he's weak. Now, 12 patches later, a very minor buff.

I would say that he is currently the best "get into my team, lone adc" champion at the moment. The shield buff solidifies this defining trait.

Who Nautilus? Or Skarner? I think you're confusing your champions. If you're talking about Skarner, he just isn't the best initiator. He's a mediocre one. You can grab a lone ADC, but then again, another CC tank could just CC them right on the spot and achieve the same results the vast majority of the time. Other tanks can also engage in many, many, many more situations. Skarner is very easy to stop because he has to get into a short range with his target by walking, so not only can someone easily flash away or CC him (particularly in a 5v5 situation), but he also has to spend a decent amount of time just closing the gap with his enemy.

To put this simply: Skarner's impale is very powerful, but also very situational. Other CC abilities can get kills in most the situations where Impale can drag someone, but they also function in many situations where Impale is just completely useless. That's one of Skarner's problems.

On Eve, if she was at low mana in the jungle before (which she was) then this change only benefits her.

If you're low mana though, you've also expended enough health that you're probably low on that too, particularly since you can't kite camps nearly as well, so you're likely having to back anyways. That's the problem. She's just as health-gated as she is mana gated, so she actually spend massive amounts of time with very low mana, and it does have to be pretty low for this to actually be a meaningful change.

Rinky Dinky1 votes

Everyone I have talked too, including high elo players, has said that Skarner is actually pretty solid. Problem is, he is outclassed, by Lee Sin. If you want to do good, you have to take a jungler that can fight Lee Sin. Cuts the role down pretty low.

These buffs are going to help Skarner alot, and if Lee ever gets any kind of toning down that actually stops him from being the best at everything a jungler can provide, Skarner, Naut, etc will see alot more play.

Khell DarkWolf2 votes

What about Hecarim Hecarim ?

I understand they are trying to take care of the mana issues he has since there is no spirit stone.

But wouldn't they tackle that problem by just removing the reduced damage to monster/minions?

He wouldn't be having mana issues, if wasn't for the fact that he had to use Q so much more often for damage clear because of that feature.

Its not season 2 jungle where jungle camps have low HP and are wussies.

Even if they don't remove it, I could atleast see a scaling damage reduction where it starts out with reduced damage but by the time Hecarim has a max 5 Q it then does full damage. At the very least.

XuWarrior1 votes

Trust me Hecarim is beast now. With W change and Mana cost. He really going up with popularity.

Jungle Lux God2 votes

The Naut change you suggested is a buff where he shouldn't have it and a nerf where he should have it.

What the change you suggest does is makes his damage greater, but every Nautilus main will tell you that if Nautilus had damage then he would be OP. This change gives him more damage than his opponents would be able to handle, especially if Nautilus gets fed.

However, that change also makes his opponents less likely to focus him because on live, his opponents have to focus Naut at least somewhat during his Titan's Wrath to stop his damage, but removing the shield requirement for his damage on Titan's Wrath removes this reason to focus.

In order to balance out his change, Nautilus' damage on Titan's Wrath would have to be reduced so low in order to balance him that he would suffer more than he currently does, as his clear times in particular would have to be reduced so much lower than they currently are.

Also, from what I've played of Nautilus so far after the patch, and he may actually be in a pretty good spot. I can now get an extra 1-2 auto attacks before Titan's Wrath times out, which for Nautilus' clears is HUGE.

Skarner may not be in too bad of a situation either, as one of his biggest problems taking Skarner anywhere, not just the jungle, was that his Q cost too much mana, and even though the mana cost buffs to Crystal Slash look small, the spammable nature of it makes a small looking buff a lot larger than it looks, although to be frank I haven't played Skarner in the new jungle at all. Also, Skarner certainly doesn't have the lowest damage of any tank.

Jamnon1 votes

Who do you think is in the best spot right now, then?

WooBeeWoo2 votes

Naut's changes aren't going to help his problems tho. He needs SO much help in the early game to be an even reasonable pick. His late game is fine and his mid game sucks due to jungle gold issues. But honestly its lvls 1-4 that he needs buffs not 'after your 2nd hp item you really start to see gains' so a slight mid and a heavy late game buff.... its just they don't seem to understand what his problem is and its that if im jungling against a Naut imma invade a murder him over and over with ANY OTHER CHAMP (just about)

Worst Blitz EU2 votes

Can we just undo Skarnes nerf that he received after his Rework ?

That nerf was completely dumb and not needed, the only reason why he was nerfed is that he actually got played agains with a 53 % Winrate.

I dont even know what Riot was smoking when they nerfed him, look at Rek'Sai, she's literally a better version of skarner.

More Damage AoE on Q, Sustain, True damage, Knockup...not even skarners ulti is better then Rek'Sai one, she can just pressure the whole enemy team with that and her tunnels, while Skarner needs to flash most of the time to secure a kill or gank.

aperson12 votes

I know it's unpopular, but I think Skarner and Nautilus will be doing alright this patch, at least in Solo Queue where counterjungling is risky. This improves their mid-late game, where having an actual tank on your team who can catch people out is a huge asset that I think a lot of people overlook in Solo Queue.

I don't think the Eve buffs were enough to help her, though. I hope they give her some more love soon.

If these guys do need more buffs, I feel there should be a better way to do it than buffing their damage/fighting potential.

Rinky Dinky1 votes

These buffs really helped out these champions imo. They are pretty viable for what they do now.

The Sejuani buffs made her excellent as well.

Once Lee Sin gets smacked off of his throne, if that ever happens, these champs will see alot of play. Hell, 90% of the jungle roster will see more play.

Cale0171 votes

Honestly I feel that the addition of the Zz'Rot portal is SO much more of a buff to tanky junglers like Nautilus, or the odd tank Skarner, than Riot's baby step approach to balancing out the jungle roster. Thus far the main issue with running a tank in the jungle has been Juggernaut's rather meh performance as an enchantment. It's the only jungle item that is technically inefficient gold-wise, as the other three are all obscenely over efficient, one of the three is technically infinitely efficient, because it gives a bunch of health but nothing to support it, making you take longer to get the bulk of a build started while not giving you anything to make the extra health relevant for more than two auto attacks from a carry.

However, a tanky jungler will be able to go straight from the Juggernaut enchantment to the Zz'Rot portal and have a large chunk of health, armor, and MR from only two items, one of which is very cheap even if inefficient on it's own. As an added bonus it has a passive that helps with ganks, as being near a turret increases movement speed on what might otherwise be a rather lumbering, slow champion, and an active that helps when taking turrets that otherwise a tanky jungler might have a hard time doing on their own.

This isn't directly on topic, I know, but if this item helps out tanky junglers the way I'm hoping it will, baby steps is all Riot really needs to take right now.

AtheosisX3 votes

I'm pretty amazed that Riot still hasn't buffed Juggernaut. It sucks so bad.

Champion Skin1 votes

The problem with Juggernaut compared to the other enchantments is that it doesn't really help your ganks or your clearing

Sightless661 votes

I'm not sure it will. I've played some with the portal on the PBE, and what really has to be noted is that the item is very cost-inefficient. I'm not

The stats are almost directly comparable to Guardian Angel. In fact, if you don't count the health regen, their stats are actually exactly the same. They both cost 2,800 and have only 2,000 gold worth of defensive stats. Building it second for armor and MR alone is going to be... well, exactly as efficient as building GA second for armor and MR was.

I don't think people will build it unless the active is the primary thing they want from the item, not just an added bonus. The cost inefficiency is just hard to deal with.

WooBeeWoo1 votes

Also why don't they change Naut's E to be like every other multi hit ability in the game and give it a base damage that goes down by a percentage for each additional hit.... Idk seems weird that his doesn't do that. It would make for a good dueling buff

Jamnon1 votes

I understood you well. I agree with every point of all three champions.

Messaiga1 votes

About Skarner, his Q already does well for him early game but falls off later (lack of scaling) so that is why it feels like he does no damage. Give it some scaling, and then to amp up his sustained damage why not change his passive to represent that.

Passive: Cooldown after proc removed (instead of 6 seconds), but duration of stun decreased to 0.5 seconds at all levels.

Q: Increase Bonus AD Scaling to 0.6, increase AP Scaling to 0.3 AP.

Basically focused on increasing his sustained damage without buffing his early game power too much (he pays for this with a slight loss of utility). Fits Skarner's playstyle (sustained damage fighter or tank), and allows slightly more build diversity sin.ce he scales better (encourages players to build more damage items if they prefer). His passive also hybridizes his damage a bit more (converts entire auto-attack to magic damage) which makes armor a smaller counter to his damage.

Mr Spaceman1 votes

riot only love some champion not Zac Zac needs buffes but nooo lets help the ones that were god-tier

Skia Asteri1 votes

Have not played many games with her yet (playing a lot of Shyvanna while she is free), the mana regen change has felt like a nerf to me. I start running low after doing stuff around level 6 instead of level 9.

The E change hes felt like a pretty big buff though. http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1698803276/218693738?tab=overview

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