Riot, stop listening to your community in terms of Champion Balance

Burnt Light·May 10, 2015·74 votes·3,588 views

The repetitive cycle is always there. A champion performs well in LCS, some fanboy of the losing team that lost due to said champion is then roaring about how said champion is supposedly OP, attracting more of the fanboys before creating a hive mind through upvotes since the community mindlessly follows. Champion is then nerfed, and after a couple of months, the same people are demanding to revert the changes, which rarely happens.

The majority of the player base do not know what they are talking about, they should not have a voice in the matter (Looking at you Gameplay & Balance and Reddit) cause they have been tarnishing champions due to their ignorance in forms of bandwagons.

78 Comments

Nameless VoiceMay 10, 201548 votes

Riot rarely listen to player feedback on balance.

Look at champions like Lee Sin, that the community asked for changes to for years, but Riot refused to touch him.

Look at the reworks which everyone hated, but Riot still implemented.

Riot do their own thing.

AerruxMay 10, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nameless Voice,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zGXXqNeA,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-05-10T02:03:53.255+0000)

Riot rarely listen to player feedback on balance.

Look at champions like Lee Sin, that the community asked for changes to for years, but Riot refused to touch him.

Look at the reworks which everyone hated, but Riot still implemented.

Riot do their own thing.

Actually, Lee Sin did get nerfed. And like OP said, after a few months, people began crying for him to be reverted.

And last I checked, most of the time when the reworks were complained, a majority of people said "Oh that's balanced."

I can bet that if we made Ashe have 200 range AA, the same thing would happen. I guarantee it.

Burnt LightMay 10, 201515 votes

{quoted}

Actually, Lee Sin did get nerfed. And like OP said, after a few months, people began crying for him to be reverted.

And last I checked, most of the time when the reworks were complained, a majority of people said "Oh that's balanced."

I can bet that if we made Ashe have 200 range AA, the same thing would happen. I guarantee it.

Pro carries with Ashe 200 range AA

Community: Perfectly balanced.

LOL SpammerMay 10, 20152 votes

Lee Sin isn't op, he is just really good in solo q.

Nameless VoiceMay 10, 20153 votes

Whether or not Lee Sin is OP wasn't actually the point. The point was that a lot of people have complained about him for years, and Riot never changed him.

Slamurai JackMay 10, 20157 votes

Let's be honest, if those people got their way, champs like Lee and Zed would be so bad that they would be completely unplayable against competent opponents.

Nameless VoiceMay 10, 20152 votes

That depends which ones you listen to. If you mean the ones who don't think too much and just write "OP, nerf please", then yes. If you mean the ones who actually analyse why they hate those champions, point out the flaws and what could be done to address them, and want to see their kits reworked to have more defined strengths and weaknesses, then no. They wouldn't be "so bad", they would just have their strengths moved around so that their kits felt fairer to play against.

Hinro HonatoMay 10, 201524 votes

Um since when did riot listen to players about balance? I'm serious, when did this start? Last time I checked lee sin, zed, akali, leblanc, lee sin again, lee sin some more, zed, nidalee, and katarina haven't been tristana'd.

So really what are you talking about?

PL55May 10, 20151 votes

People aren't really complaining about lee sin or akali anymore to be honest. Also what do you mean by tristana'd? If you mean making them reworked into a champion that is not popular at all and usefulness is questionable then that isn't the goal of a nerf or rework. The riot balance team's main goal is to have champions at the perfect spot not a poor once.

ZavernMay 10, 20151 votes

People aren't talking about Lee Sin anymore because of the tank meta. Once the tank meta is gone, he is going to pop up again.

EvilRabbittMay 10, 20152 votes

Then Vi puts him down like a bad disease. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5r03Q3gglV8

minro4May 10, 20151 votes

yasuo.

SolusInCadereMay 10, 20153 votes

...has received multiple nerfs since release

minro4May 10, 20154 votes

akali is complete trash, lb got nerfed hard, zed is... ok hes ridiculus i give you that one, lee isnt even good in the current meta

LankPantsMay 10, 20159 votes

akali

You can't really use Akali as an argument here, she's in a terrible state.

Vistha KaiMay 10, 20153 votes

She is still obnoxious as fuck, she just can't really proc her Q pre-6.

EvilRabbittMay 10, 20151 votes

And her rank 1 ultimate is pathetic. Akali needs buffs right now. She may be "obnoxious" but atm the "obnoxious" part is way past early (thankfully) and starts with her rank 2 ultimate. Rank 1 has a low range, rank 2 is back to normal.

Vistha KaiMay 10, 20152 votes

Her ult range doesn't change with ranks.

EvilRabbittMay 10, 20151 votes

Wait that got fixed???? I remember being like "This isn't a dash, this is a jig...". So weird. Thanks for the correction mate. She still needs buffs imo though.

Vistha KaiMay 11, 20152 votes

That's what the wiki says.

She could use some buffs, but only is she'll get meaningful counterplay. "Don't appear on my screen" isn't counterplay.

Slamurai JackMay 10, 20158 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hinro Honato,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zGXXqNeA,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-05-10T02:06:29.726+0000)

Um since when did riot listen to players about balance? I'm serious, when did this start? Last time I checked lee sin, zed, akali, leblanc, lee sin again, lee sin some more, zed, nidalee, and katarina haven't been tristana'd.

So really what are you talking about?

Lets see, Lee was nerfed 3 times in season 4 and is a below average jungler atm by pretty much every metric. Akali has already been gutted and is the worst assassin in the game atm. Leblanc was so bad after her silence removal that they had to buff her multiple times so she was playable again. Katarina is just a pubstomper and Riot has nerfed her multiple times recently anyway. The only good champs on that list at this moment are Leblanc, Zed, and Nidalee, and even then, they're only situationally good. I can think of tons of situations where I would take someone like Ziggs over all 3 of them.

Chaotic ReksMay 10, 201513 votes

Lee was nerfed 3 times in season 4 and is a below average jungler atm by pretty much every metric.

so is that why he was THE dominant jg up until the creation of cinderhulk?

Slamurai JackMay 10, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=NyX Reks,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zGXXqNeA,comment-id=000300050000,timestamp=2015-05-10T07:36:20.368+0000)

so is that why he was THE dominant jg up until the creation of cinderhulk?

I don't the Lee has ever really been THE best jungler at any point in time. He may have largely defined who could and could not jungle based on who could survive his once dominant (but no longer) early game, but I don't think he's unequivocally ever been the undisputed best jungler. He has always been very popular and dangerous early, which forces other junglers to adapt to his presence, but he's never really been the best pick. Hell, even for Season 5, Reksai, Vi, J4, and even Pantheon were all far better warrior junglers than he was. He's just been a solid, popular pick for a long time that can make big plays but also has many, many weaknesses that people, for some reason, refuse to acknowledge.

Dies to WolvesMay 10, 201510 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zGXXqNeA,comment-id=0003000500000000,timestamp=2015-05-10T08:05:17.708+0000)

I don't the Lee has ever really been THE best jungler at any point in time. He may have largely defined who could and could not jungle based on who could survive his once dominant (but no longer) early game, but I don't think he's unequivocally ever been the undisputed best jungler. He has always been very popular and dangerous early, which forces other junglers to adapt to his presence, but he's never really been the best pick. Hell, even for Season 5, Reksai, Vi, J4, and even Pantheon were all far better warrior junglers than he was. He's just been a solid, popular pick for a long time that can make big plays but also has many, many weaknesses that people, for some reason, refuse to acknowledge.

you're in denial, mate

Mandang0May 10, 20154 votes

Lee's never been 'below average' and he certainly isn't now.

The guy's not top tier for a patch and suddenly the sky is falling with you guys...

Hyrum GraffMay 11, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hinro Honato,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zGXXqNeA,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-05-10T02:06:29.726+0000)

Um since when did riot listen to players about balance? I'm serious, when did this start? Last time I checked lee sin, zed, akali, leblanc, lee sin again, lee sin some more, zed, nidalee, and katarina haven't been tristana'd.

So really what are you talking about?

I think you forgot Lee.

DecritMay 11, 20151 votes

I believe he is talking about "not seeing what the community wants on the patch notes", akin to slaves and not professionals.

because every poster here is, of course.

Rinky DinkyMay 10, 201514 votes

People actually think Sejuani and Gragas are broken OP and an insta win.

It's hilarious

TheGrandAllianceMay 10, 201511 votes

Well the community does have one legitimate concern when it comes to "meta" vs "non-meta" champions. Only so many of the total champions in game are used in LCS: That is for a reason.

Therefore the balance of the "unused" ones such as Fiora of course are real discussions. Dismissing the community out of hand and calling them "NOOBS" simply because they are not best at logical argumentation does not discount the underling truths that they are right of course.

Also you forget that in the end it doesn't matter what RIOT wants: If the playerbase /quit or otherwise no new players enter due to imbalances a game is over. So many video games have fallen, especially PvP games (looking at you Elder Scrolls Online) so fast due to such imbalances. The burden of proof that "something is balanced" befalls on RIOT, not the community.

AerruxMay 10, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Well the community does have one legitimate concern when it comes to "meta" vs "non-meta" champions. Only so many of the total champions in game are used in LCS. That is for a reason.

Therefore the balance of the "unused" ones such as of course are real discussions. Dismissing the community out of hand simply because they are not best at logical argumentation does not discount the underling truths thereof.

Evidently there needs to be qualifications for someone to talk about balancing champions.

Remlap1223May 10, 20155 votes

Ah yes, the good ol "you're bronze, therefore you're bad, therefore you don't get a voice in the balance of a champion" bullshit argument.

LifeCyclesTWAMay 10, 20156 votes

I actually beta-tested ESO and the group I had tested it with and I predicted that it'd lose well-over half its subscribers before the first year ended. We all felt they were releasing a half-baked game and that it needed more work before they released it.

TheGrandAllianceMay 10, 20154 votes

{quoted}

I actually beta-tested ESO and the group I had tested it with and I predicted that it'd lose well-over half its subscribers before the first year ended. We all felt they were releasing a half-baked game and that it needed more work before they released it.

LoL I was there too as well... They lost half their sub in the first 3 weeks though :)

AkeydelMay 10, 20151 votes

Throwing in another ESO story: Joined the beta, and completed the ~~lackluster~~ tutorial. Spent the next half hour getting lost, dying to a tiger, and clipping through various things. Uninstalled. It was great.

SolusInCadereMay 10, 20151 votes

for me, I completed the ~~unhelpful~~ tutorial, walked into the first town after about 10 min of wandering, then all the townspeople attacked me and I had to massacre them. Got killed by an ogre twice and uninstalled.

AelvrMay 10, 20157 votes

"Riot, listen to your community, but use your better judgment when making a champion balance decision." fixt

Very Hard EngageMay 10, 20155 votes

because the community was overwhelmingly voting for veigar/zilean changes for being super toxic and oppressive.

yet somehow the champions with a 40% win rate and under 3% popularity .1% ban rate, are considered just as healthy as champions compared to 55% win rate and 10% popularity with an 80% ban rate.

"balanced"

Remlap1223May 10, 20155 votes

Ok, Riot shouldn't listen to when someone just goes "LEBLANC OP NERF PLZ" but if the community gets together and comes up wit a well rationed argument about certain aspects of LeBlanc's kit like "Hey Riot, LeBlanc is really overbearing at all levels of play, her mobility, damage, and safety are all way too high, which leads to very little counterplay in her kit." then that should be considered. Hell, changes like Karma and the Donger being able to cast their ults while silenced were implemented because the boards, of all places, came up with a rational argument about how "seconds matter" and that them casting their ults wouldn't do a whole lot of good if they're dead before the silence wears off. Because of that, the next patch, Riot implemented that, and the two are much better off because of that.

Miku Hime samaMay 10, 20154 votes

Riot doesn't listen to the community. If they did, patch 4.13 would've never have been rushed to Live and we wouldn't be still advocating for its reversal even now over 10 months later.

Fact of the matter is, Riot's shitty balancing is influenced solely by their own personal biases of how THEY want the game to look and what champions THEY want to be playable/unplayable.

zane yalgirMay 10, 20153 votes

Fizz most recent example

Cenobite AzazielMay 10, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Burnt Light,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zGXXqNeA,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-05-10T01:55:04.966+0000)

The repetitive cycle is always there. A champion performs well in LCS, some fanboy of the losing team that lost due to said champion is then roaring about how said champion is supposedly OP, attracting more of the fanboys before creating a hive mind through upvotes since the community mindlessly follows. Champion is then nerfed, and after a couple of months, the same people are demanding to revert the changes, which rarely happens.

The majority of the player base do not know what they are talking about, they should not have a voice in the matter (Looking at you Gameplay & Balance and Reddit) cause they have been tarnishing champions due to their ignorance in forms of bandwagons.

They don't. Or else lee sin would be at 38% winrate. They generally nerf LCS pikcs because they tend to pick up the best champs, calculating it by number crunching. You wanna know who is going to be nerfed next? See the top staples in challenger. (except for lee, he can safe guard the nerfs).

Puri Puri TaricMay 10, 20153 votes

lcs big plays.

IllusoryLuminesMay 10, 20152 votes

Nerfs are a popularity contest.

ErythaeanMay 10, 20152 votes

people still say riven and leesin is op.. its sort of sad lol

metaworldpeace10May 10, 20152 votes

To play devils advocate here.. The community did ask for tank Junglers to be more viable and Riot responded by releasing cinderhulk. I do agree, however, that the communities ideas behind nerfs/buffs are biased towards buffing their main or nerfing their counters. The community has had great ideas in the past and will continue to do so. The only issue is that for all the good ideas that come about, another 10 bad balance threads are made and the perception of the community is accepted as being "bad at balancing"

DivinemindMay 11, 20151 votes

No keep doing it. I want to savor the demise of Riot when HOTS comes out.

ShadyWolfeMay 11, 20153 votes

Not gonna happen since HOTS is pretty meh.

Cuz1972May 11, 20151 votes

I think the fact that a champion is doing well in the LCS has a bigger impact on balance than anything posted here.

DecritMay 11, 20151 votes

Well, it depends on how you put it:

they always listen and check, but that does not mean they do as we say: they are the expert, they can mess up but the talent and mastery behind those screens is far beyond ours, and the fact that lol still lands on its feets to this day is proof.

I know you already started ranting, but listen a sec: what do i mean is that listening is different from obeying, in a rant there may be many causes and reasons that led to that - some of which might be even a good sign! Sometimes the community is more technically precise, some other times not but can still work on the "feel" and "experience" side, things that can be only predicted up to a degree and is based exactly on feedback.

This is why they say they listen, even if they appear to do something else: they are professionals, and i want them to think as professionals and not as my slaves.