Can we stop with %true damage on max health?

Burnt Light·Sep 7, 2015·122 votes·5,291 views

Seriously, health is the only goddamn thing that is suppose to counter true damage, and you're making it impossible to go against and officially making it a broken stat.

90 Comments

Archon XSep 7, 201548 votes

Health does counter true damage.

500 health -> 10% true damage -> 450 health remaining.

1000 health -> 10% true damage -> 900 health remaining.

you're dealt more damage but you have more health remaining ^.^

disregardableSep 7, 20154 votes

Fiora 125% maximum health true damage.

500 health-> 0 health remaining. 5000 health -> 0 health remaining.

Archon XSep 7, 201533 votes

How does Fiora deal 125% maximum health true damage? I've tried to do the math on her passive, and it doesn't approach that amount.

HäßlichSep 7, 201525 votes

Just ignore him. He's just being stupid about it. Your post explaining why health does counter true damage is what I was going to post, so good job.

disregardableSep 7, 20152 votes

That would be 2 vital hits when she's full build. So you press R and the enemy dies, basically. Doesn't matter which enemy. They all just die.

LankPantsSep 7, 201512 votes

In order to hit 100% with 4 vitals you need 422 bonus AD, that's never going to happen.

For 125% with 4 you'd need 628 bonus AD which is unachievable assuming you buy boots and don't have an outside AD buff.

XeroKimoSep 7, 20152 votes

Really 422 ad is never going to happen? I've done it before in an actual match once

AnidanSep 7, 20155 votes

The damage potential is there... but at the same time, how often are you hitting all 4 vitals on a half-competent target that doesn't stand still and try to duke it out with you? Against anyone moving (which they should be if they got targetted by her ult, and this game discourages just standing in general), it's a damn-near impossibility to hit all 4 vitals from the ult.

Not only that, to attain 422 ad pretty much requires that you go glass cannon. And if you get killed by a glass cannon Fiora hitting 4 of your vitals (which means dancing around you and trying to hit 4 separate areas of your hitbox) then you kinda deserve it for letting someone that squishy pull it off.

LankPantsSep 7, 20152 votes

Not 422 AD, 422 bonus AD. Assuming you're level 18 you'd need 538 total AD to get to that damage threshold.

WolfBVSep 8, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Really 422 ad is never going to happen? I've done it before in an actual match once

Well sure if you buy 5 80 AD items.

Meep ManSep 8, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Really 422 ad is never going to happen? I've done it before in an actual match once

That would be having about 525 or so AD (422 bonus AD). Then you are just really fed and about any champion could 100-0 with that. As long as they can live since that high AD probably means you've sacrafised a lot of defensive stats.

Fiora and Vayne are also the only champions with this mechanic and only Vayne can do it without altering her play choices. Its not a huge deal. % true damage is just something people like to blame for any champion that is OP when it really is probably something else. For example:

Fiora- Has high base defensive stats and her dash is on about a 3 second cool down when it hits a target. Her Parry is also pretty obnoxious. Vayne- Self-peel and the easiest to get yet still high AD steroid in the game.

hgjkdlsaf jeldvbSep 8, 20151 votes

it's actually really frustrating when you see the true damage as the highest damage source in your death after building 1 armor item. It's not fair how effective % true damage is.

Kuroi86Sep 7, 20152 votes

I'm trying to figure out the numbers here.

3% (+「 2.7 + (0.1 × Fiora's level)% 」per 100 bonus AD) of target's maximum health

So at lvl 18 she deals 3% + (4.5% per 100 bonus AD)

Four vitals means 25% per vital to hit 100%

I'm actually getting 489 bonus AD to hit 100%

Let me run it again, I think I may have missed a number somewhere.

LankPantsSep 8, 20151 votes

You're right, I have no idea what I did. Maths at midnight never works out right.

hgjkdlsaf jeldvbSep 8, 20151 votes

don't need to deal 100%. You could deal 30% and be golden.

Meeks011Sep 8, 20151 votes

I've reached in in bots with a Sword of the Occult.

W6ryv9QjjsSep 7, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Archon X,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AWvBLK3n,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-09-07T11:02:25.685+0000)

Health does counter true damage.

500 health -> 10% true damage -> 450 health remaining.

1000 health -> 10% true damage -> 900 health remaining.

you're dealt more damage but you have more health remaining ^.^

Theoretically it takes the same amount of procs of the true damage to kill the target. You take 50 less damage but you have 50% less hp.

MohawkBirdSep 7, 20155 votes

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LeeDarkSep 7, 20151 votes

Health is still the counter to true damage, EVEN when that true damage is % max health. Why? Because when you die, and you open up the recap, NOT ALL THE DAMAGE DONE TO YOU WAS DONE AS % MAX HEALTH TRUE DAMAGE. So, when you take 10% of your health as damage and still have plenty of health left, YOU LIVE LONGER.

MohawkBirdSep 7, 20154 votes

[deleted]

Hotlin3 FlingSep 7, 20151 votes

Fiora place the vital against a wall or cc her when she goes for it Vayne kill her first, make her switch targets Garen don't fight him when you're the villain

MohawkBirdSep 7, 20152 votes

[deleted]

LeeDarkSep 7, 20152 votes

You're the one who doesn't understand Fiora. It's a lot like Draven's axes. Squishy AD carry with telegraphed positioning. If she wants to hit your vital, you KNOW WHERE SHE IS MOVING.

MohawkBirdSep 7, 20151 votes

[deleted]

Hotlin3 FlingSep 8, 20151 votes

Leaving her sight range resets it. Use lane bushes

YumaS2AstralSep 7, 20154 votes

And that's why Fiora and Vayne are actually more effective against squishies than against tanks

greenbird76Sep 9, 20151 votes

Yeah, that's true for anyone. Squishies are just universally easy to kill. That's kind of what the name implies. The problem is that these two have a significantly easier time breaking tanks than most of game.

chipndip1Sep 7, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Archon X,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AWvBLK3n,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-09-07T11:02:25.685+0000)

Health does counter true damage.

500 health -> 10% true damage -> 450 health remaining.

1000 health -> 10% true damage -> 900 health remaining.

you're dealt more damage but you have more health remaining ^.^

But assuming the guy doing this damage is still there, if they continue ripping you apart like this, you're still gonna die significantly faster than what you would otherwise.

PePsiLemoNNSep 7, 20158 votes

500 health -> 10% true damage -> 50 damage -> 10 hits to be killed ( only true damage ) 1000 health -> 10% true damage -> 100 dmage -> 10 hits to be killed (only true damage)

LeeDarkSep 7, 20153 votes

NOBODY does ONLY true damage. Stop using this idiotic fucking argument.

AnidanSep 7, 20155 votes

I decree that someone should be made to do Chaos Damage situationally on auto-attacks, but outright lack the ability to crit.

That wouldn't be beyond horribly broken beyond all repair, right?

Not even a little?

Guys?

Dark Terminator was a broken hilarity in ye olde DotA, pre-IceFrog (around the time of Guinsoo or so) who did Chaos Damage on all auto-attacks. I'm not actually suggesting anyone be able to do un-resistable or un-mitigatable damage literally as their normal auto-attack, crit or not.

stabby himikoSep 11, 20151 votes

Here take this into thought. 500 HP -[Vital Hit]-> 10% true damage -> 50,and if Fiora is good enough,that can happen every 1 second,including her E's 160% crit at lvl 1. So that 500 HP dude will die within a few seconds. The vitals increase her movement speed and heals her.

So now say it's later in the game,the tank has a bit more hp,but by then,Fiora has MORE AD,and her %maxhp true damage,scales with AD,so now it brings it to 20% true damage.

1000 HP -[Vital Hit]-> 20% true damage -> 200,which ends up making it even EASIER to chunk the tank's HP with 1 vital,if anything,the hits needed to be killed will be lowered,and so will the time needed to murder him.

LeeDarkSep 11, 20151 votes

Sorry, but the math doesn't actually work out like that. You're just making up numbers and pretending they are accurate. If you want to theorycraft her potential damage, be serious about it.

Second, I'm not arguing that Fiora isn't overpowered. I ban her every fucking chance I get, personally. I don't ban Vayne. Ever. And I never regret it either; I have not had a game yet where I was like, "Man, if only we'd banned Vayne." The couple of games I've seen a Vayne carry, the person playing had the mechanics to prove he probably could have carried on another ADC.

Finally, even if your math was accurate, the fact remains, NOBODY does ONLY true damage. You might be able to say that %maxhealth true damage that scales with your primary offensive attribute is a bad idea, but the simple fact is that she doesn't do only true damage.

1999 01 17Sep 7, 20157 votes

[{quoted}](name=Archon X,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AWvBLK3n,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-09-07T11:02:25.685+0000)

Health does counter true damage.

500 health -> 10% true damage -> 450 health remaining.

1000 health -> 10% true damage -> 900 health remaining.

you're dealt more damage but you have more health remaining ^.^

health does not exist in a vacuum, in order to get that extra 500 health you traded an appropriate amount of defenses and now you take more damage from their other attacks. this is why vayne having both flat and % based true damage is problematic- there's no way to itemize against her.

Archon XSep 7, 20156 votes

item 3143 item 3110

BattleBoarSep 8, 20151 votes

You forgot to lest Ninja Tabi's as well for your boots. Blocks 10% of the damage from basic attacks is all was good vs ADC.

JingerbeardmanSep 8, 20151 votes

yes and no. yes it will affect her damage rate, no it will not affect the amount of damage that is inevitably dealt.

azrolatorSep 8, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Archon X,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AWvBLK3n,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-09-07T11:02:25.685+0000)

Health does counter true damage.

500 health -> 10% true damage -> 450 health remaining.

1000 health -> 10% true damage -> 900 health remaining.

you're dealt more damage but you have more health remaining ^.^

It is 10 hits of that regardless if you have 500 or 1000 like you said. so there is little point building armor or hps, but must build damage. Fiora and Garen get it situationally and in not steady over time damage so it doesn't bother me as much on them, but I still think everyone should lose it. Hps do not counter it as you just pointed out.

Guy Fox TeemoSep 8, 20151 votes

Thats like a half counter, because thats just after one hit. You'll still die VERY quickly.

KaisadiIIaSep 8, 20151 votes

That's not true. % max health true damage can't be countered. If you receive 10% true damage 10 times you die either you have 100 or 6,000 HP.

hgjkdlsaf jeldvbSep 8, 20151 votes

You can argue this all day, and yet it's still a completely unfair mechanic since even building health against it is inefficient, considering how much it normalizes there kill times. A lot of people seem to underestimate, for instance, how much extra damage garen gets when he ults the villain. His ult can easily deal 50-100% increased damage since he's got no magic pen.

The same is true of a champion like vayne, who doesn't even bother building AD until her 3rd item, which is often last whisper anyway, yet she still kills you extremely quickly.

When you look at the damage compositions of fiora and vayne, they both sit at about 20% true damage, but that's an average. It's going to be lower against squishies, and much higher against tanks. It's not that items like frozen heart don't help against vayne, it's that they aren't effective enough at decreasing their kill times.

AdemonicfurbyFeb 22, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Archon X,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AWvBLK3n,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-09-07T11:02:25.685+0000)

Health does counter true damage.

500 health -> 10% true damage -> 450 health remaining.

1000 health -> 10% true damage -> 900 health remaining.

you're dealt more damage but you have more health remaining ^.^

facepalm can't tell if trolling or serious...

Sire HippingtonSep 7, 20157 votes

% truedamage isn't broken as long as it's numbers are resonably low and it's tied to mechanics that have counterplay.

On fiora, it's perfectly fine, on vayne it's also fine as she needs 3 consecutive hits on the same target as 550range carry(though her insane physical damage duering ult is a problem) On garren, i don't like it. it's very binary, if you get marked for villian as a melee, you can as well suicide to the next tower(not sure if dying resets villian though) As a ranged, you just don't give a fuck...

if you look at how much of theri total damage is truedamage, ahrie and olaf both beat vayne and fiora by alot, and both have flat true damage...

LstrikeSep 9, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Pavoni,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AWvBLK3n,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-09-07T20:29:16.230+0000)

% truedamage isn't broken as long as it's numbers are resonably low and it's tied to mechanics that have counterplay.

On fiora, it's perfectly fine, on vayne it's also fine as she needs 3 consecutive hits on the same target as 550range carry(though her insane physical damage duering ult is a problem) On garren, i don't like it. it's very binary, if you get marked for villian as a melee, you can as well suicide to the next tower(not sure if dying resets villian though) As a ranged, you just don't give a fuck...

if you look at how much of theri total damage is truedamage, ahrie and olaf both beat vayne and fiora by alot, and both have flat true damage...

So does Irelia

Doctor JarvisSep 7, 20155 votes

I don't have a problem with Fiora having it (though maybe her refund on Q should be less when she hits something so she can't just spam vitals) and Garen can have it against specific people sometimes too, that's whatever. Why is Vayne allowed to just do it all the time though? It defeats the purpose of building health or resistances when she deals 8% max health true damage every 3 autos, especially given how little work is involved in that.

IcyPepperSep 7, 20154 votes

Seriously, health is the only goddamn thing that is suppose to counter true damage,

You only got half of that :c

%hp damage is countered by building the appropriate resist (armor against BORK, MR against something like Gnar's W?)

Flat true damage is countered by building health.

I'll admit, you can't counterbuild %hp true damage. For the most part, you can outplay it. There are ways to not let Fiora get your vitals, but she's going to get some just like any champion is basically guaranteed to land the occasional skillshot or autoattack.

Vayne... let's not even go there. I'm not going there at all :c

ShockforceSep 8, 20151 votes

Bleh, Vayne's true damage is technically countered by building health because it has a base damage component...

Which is kind of bs.

IcyPepperSep 8, 20151 votes

I think armor is more effective, since it protects better against her Q and ult AD steroids. Especially early game, because most Vayne players are starting to max their Q first ;~;