So vayne has +70 AD, and +70% AD

D357R0Y3R·Oct 11, 2016·21 votes·1,576 views

can also crit on top of all those steroids for reasons.

why? "because she is an assassin secondary".

so you have someone that can fullfie the niche of an actual carry like kog'maw, while also able to fullfie the niche of an assassin doing a non-delayed assassin lvl of burst damage+mobility/stealth, while also having hard cc and use the mobility/stealth to survive against bruisers.

hm, why? is it because she is low ranged? because that's bullshit, low range doesn't mean shit if you can get to your target with mobility and oneshot your target without her to doing anything.

46 Comments

MLDzXnRRROct 11, 20165 votes

Inbe4 all the Vayne mains occupy the thread: lowest range, bad laning, single target, "hard to play", squishy... summoner 31

EedatOct 11, 20165 votes

Sigh another one of these threads.

Here's the deal with Vayne. Vayne is an ADC with very low range, no poke, no AoE, and crap wave clear. Vayne is a selfish, pure single target DPS champ. So what you get is a very risky DPS champ. If she only did mediocre single target DPS, there would absolutely no point in picking her as other champs can do the same but are much safer and have more utility. So she better be good at single target DPS.

Vayne is strong in a 1v1 because of her high single target DPS and stealth mechanic, but that can easily be countered by a pink ward. In team fights she is very vulnerable because she has to get close. So outside of a 1v1 she's really not that great of a champ and is very reliant on her team to protect her in team fights.

It's also funny how you picked the second worst ADC (first being Kalista) to compare her to lol. Kog is garbage right now and is not the standard of comparison for the ADC role

D357R0Y3ROct 11, 20162 votes

take any adc that isn't jinx and compare it to vayne

show me.

TequilaZombieOct 12, 20163 votes

Well, Ashe has a perma slow that increases with Crit, high single target DPS with her Q, safe poke with volley and one of the strongest engages in the entire game.

Cait has a burst comparable to Vayne with her headshots, while also having a longer dash with a slow, heavy zone control, a kill securing from long ass range ult and a much bigger range. Ohh and better poke.

Trist is still godlike in terms of DPS, has the biggest range in the game outside of Kog's W and Twitch's R, is possibly the safest ADC in the game due to her huge jump (which resets) and her self peel Ult.

I mean, we could go on, but there are plenty of strong single target ADCs that offer much more utility than Vayne. What Vayne gets for not having any sort of AoE, crappy CC and small range, is over the top single target damage. Just like Ashe has over the top utility or Trist has over the top safety.

Need Gold 4 TentOct 11, 20161 votes

lol, figures. took me a month to get to level 7 kog, i thought i must've been horrible with him.

PermabannedGarenOct 11, 20165 votes

A late game Vayne is hard to deal with and should be.

This ridiculously stupid idea that late game hypercarries should be easy to shut down late game is ridiculous, and weirdly enough pretty much only a thought process the crybabies in the League community have. Most Smite players don't complain about Kali or Freya being hard to deal with late game, because they pay for that late with their early game.

Carry early and mid game, close out the game before she gets really powerful. Stop whining.

Tychusfindlay919Oct 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

A late game Vayne is hard to deal with and should be.

This ridiculously stupid idea that late game hypercarries should be easy to shut down is ridiculous, and weirdly enough pretty much only a thought process the crybabies in the League community have. Most Smite players don't complain about Kali or Freya being hard to deal with late game, because they pay for that late with their early game.

Carry early and mid game, close out the game before she gets really powerful. Stop whining.

Or come late game cc-lock her to hell. It'd be better to deal with the mage and the tanks/bruisers than the vayne and the tanks/bruisers.

MunchCrunchLunchOct 12, 20161 votes

she isn't weak early game anymore with that Q buff though.

PermabannedGarenOct 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

she isn't weak early game anymore with that Q buff though.

Her Q buffs barely count for shit until she both maxes her Q (since that is where the biggest numbers difference is, at rank 1 there is no difference) and gets her Infinity Edge.

Which is to say, it made her mid game less weak by giving her more burst. She's still short-ranged enough that she can be locked down and bursted before she gets any defense though.

No Yellow NorcoOct 12, 20161 votes

I didn't gank bot lane one time amd our team didn't leave lanes until 35 mins into the game....omg why Vayne so OP??!?

Meep ManOct 12, 20162 votes

The only thing I would do right now, before the Assassin Update, to Vayne is change some minor things on her, like...

Q- Tumble

Mana Cost increased to 35/40/45/50/55 mana from 30 mana at all ranks

R- Final Hour

Mana Cost increased to 100 mana from 80 mana

I do this simply because her mana costs right now are abnormally low. Her R costs less than other ultimates for some reason and her Q, despite providing a constant stream of mobility and one of the largest damage modifiers in the game, only costs 30 mana. Increasing the mana costs of these moves should hurt her laning phase a tiny bit.

RequiemsfireOct 11, 20161 votes

I'm sorry as much as I would like to see Vayne nerfed right now because I actually do think she's a bit too strong right now she is definitely not the same as Kog'maw and nor can she fulfill that niche as easily(at least old Kog'maw).

When talking about range, her range is average amongst adc's and not really low.

What I personally dislike about Vayne is that she's in my honest opinion too good against melee champions like Sion or Yorick with a 2 second dash that grants her invisibility and a disengage tool which can be used as a stun making her extremely hard for anyone to hit.

D357R0Y3ROct 11, 20166 votes

kog'maw niche is being an anti-tank, tell me how vayne can't do that while also being an assassin at the same time kog can do it with more range? 550 range is MORE than enough to take a melee down.

MelledoneusOct 11, 20162 votes

Not to mention Vayne can build lifesteal and become unreasonably hard to kill by sustained damage dealers like Ekko, Twitch, and Jinx.

You basically need to kill her in 2 seconds or less or she'll just heal it all back, and it's entirely disgusting.

DarkRitualOct 11, 20161 votes

Or, you know... hit her with a single CC ability and group up on her while she can't do her whole positioning dance.

MelledoneusOct 11, 20161 votes

Because hitting her with CC is easy when they have 2 other AD carries in their team, she has a dash into stealth, and she can knock away anyone she wants to.

Not to mention that a tank busting ADC should not be an assassin as well.

DarkRitualOct 11, 20162 votes

Soraka Silence, not hard Cc but helps. Malz ult is point and click. Amumu Ult. Galio Ult. Pantheon. Nami ult into bubble. Alistar combo. Gragas Body Slam flash Shen taunt flash.

Need me to continue?

MelledoneusOct 11, 20161 votes

No, because this is more counterpick than counterplay.

I want to know why Vayne can be an assassin, an ADC, and a tank buster all at the same time. It's hardly fair.

DarkRitualOct 11, 20161 votes

She itemizes to amplify her kits' strengths. Most champs don't have items that synergize so perfectly.

5000000000000000Oct 11, 20162 votes

You'll most likely have a teammate (or two, or three...) who has some hard CC. A lot of them also have AoE or targeted CC, which is more effective against Vayne than, say, a blind Lux snare. If you don't have anyone with hard CC on your team, you've counterpicked yourself. This is definitely counterplay, not counterpick.

That said, I agree that Vayne shouldn't be good at killing both tanks and squishies.

RequiemsfireOct 12, 20161 votes

Champions that Vayne specifically counters Darius Nasus DrMundo Jax XinZhao Fiora Kled Nautilus Olaf Sion Poppy Vladimir Yorick RekSai Mordekaiser Illaoi Volibear Olaf Nocturne Shyvana Aatrox

And it's not that Vayne deals true damage % health thus counters tank, there's another reason for most of these champions to be countered by Vayne.

DarkRitualOct 12, 20161 votes

I would not say she counters Naut. He has two point-and click CC (if you include basic attack for passive root). A lot of those are sti servicable. Poppy can snap-ult for knockup, Stop her from tumbling, and knock her into wall (she can't Condemn every single person on a team, and if poppy E is your only cc against Vayne, your teamcomp is pretty terrible).

RequiemsfireOct 12, 20161 votes

Well you're probably about Naut somehow manages to land his hook on or rather she is poorly positioned enough to be hooked.

The thing about Vayne is that she can use her condemn and item 3153 to peel herself from every kind of melee fighter, carry or tank. I don't think against a good Vayne, in a regular Poppy would stand a chance to land any of her abilities without some level of poor positioning simply because of those self peeling tools.

I would argue it's borderline impossible for a Sion to so much as land his abilities against a vayne, he's basically a dead undead man walking. Very few have the stick potential to actually deal with her so you need some kind of point and click CC which in turn creates polarizing gameplay because of how unpredictable she is with her 2 second tumble.

DarkRitualOct 12, 20161 votes

Thats why you bring two people. She can't condemn both of you, or tumble everything. Also a good Noc will shield when he hears the Condemn fire. If we can assumd the Vayne is good, we must also acknowledge for her enemy's skill.

RequiemsfireOct 12, 20161 votes

I would say 3 people, atm Vayne's one shot build deals around 1.5k-2k damage just on her tumble alone so she'll probably get a fair amount of burst in before she dies. :l

DarkRitualOct 12, 20161 votes

Naut ult -> Ashe ult -> Naut hook -> Naut hook (point blank). At this point, it's like 5 seconds of hard CC vayne can't do anything about pre-qss. That's just from the bot lane duo. Naut brings alot, so yeah three likely needed for ither groups.

TeklmOct 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

they have 2 other AD carries in their team

What kind of team comp are you against that has 3 ADC's?

MelledoneusOct 12, 20161 votes

Unfortunately it works.

Graves Jungle, AD Ezreal mid, Vayne ADC...

The ADC update brought a lot of picks we haven't seen meta.

dunder killOct 11, 20162 votes

Why the hell are you using Kog as an example? Kog is garbage right now. Might as well try to compare her to Kalista. Because when we're talking about balance in a role, the obvious choice is to compare them to the worst in the group right? Lol

EndlessSorcererOct 11, 20161 votes

The main reason people say Vayne has low range is because she has no abilities which let her affect anyone outside of her autoattack range unlike almost every other ADC.

The only other ADC with a similar limitation is Tristana who can use the AOE of her E and whose passive extends her autoattack range.

Basically, low "effective" range rather than low autoattack range.

DarkRitualOct 11, 20161 votes

Doesn't Trist also gain range per level from her passive?

EndlessSorcererOct 11, 20161 votes

and whose passive extends her autoattack range

Yes.

Also, the range of her autoattacks, E and ultimate are shared.

Brain Errör 404Oct 11, 20161 votes

Corki, Draven, Ezreal, Jhin, Kalista, Kennen, Miss Fortune, Twitch, Vayne: 550

These are all champs with 550 range. You can do research for the others, but most other adcs have either less or more range. Now, here's the kicker, out of all these adcs, Vayne is the only adc without an extended range auto. She has to be in your face for ALL of her damage always putting her in range to get nuked.

All other adcs have some sort of range extender.

D357R0Y3ROct 11, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Media TM,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z9WrtRAX,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-10-11T15:21:55.378+0000)

Vayne is the only adc without an extended range auto. She has to be in your face for ALL of her damage always putting her in range to get nuked.

550 range

Brain Errör 404Oct 11, 20161 votes

Look, because I'm tired of people bitching all the time, sit down and watch this video and watch Gosu do Gosu things.

Vayne's damage output has only been increased SLIGHTLY with those buffs, not nearly as much as people are bitching about.

This montage consists of videos before ANY of the Q changes this season.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpW3shvSJPo

Need Gold 4 TentOct 11, 20161 votes

Before the changes I had always built her crit, as with all other ADC. PD/IE/BT/LW/boots/(another zeal item). The difference then and now? Nothing much. She has always hurt with crit. People just read the patch notes that mentioned crit and go "oh, I must try crit now" then "OMG, crit hurts!" as if crits never hurt before.

Brain Errör 404Oct 11, 20161 votes

Exactly. PD was also a luxury buy on Vayne as well (I think, I don't even remember since I'm a bit new) before the PD changes, making it her core item.

So people just forgot about the heavy crit Vayne that use to be more popular over the increasing duel build Vayne.

Need Gold 4 TentOct 11, 20161 votes

That is the cookiecutter ADC build. It will work on EVERY ADC, with the exceptions of the ADCasters like Lucian/Corki/Ez whom I do not consider ADC at all. I build it on Yi, Trynd, and virtually all ADC I play (since I don't play ADCasters). Crit > all other builds for raw damage, has always been.

The only issue it had (and still has), is that a PD and an IE are very expensive items, and both are required for Crit Vayne's power spike, compared to the similar power spike she gets from a single BoRK alone.

Edit: When Vayne first came out long long ago, every single ADC except Ez and Corki built exactly the same items. IE first item was pretty much a must for all ADC, with the exceptions of Kog Maw and Vayne, who could rush PD for a similar but cheaper power spike. PD was not a luxury buy at all, it was in fact a poor Vayne's choice over holding out for an IE. And I think it is still the same now.

SlashStrikerOct 11, 20161 votes

I think Vayne roles are Marksman / Skirmisher

Unlike Assassins, Skirmishers aim to shred through any nearby enemy that approaches. Because Skirmishers lack high-end burst damage or reliable ways of closing in on high-priority targets, they are instead armed with situationally powerful defensive tools to survive in the fray, along with extreme sustained damage to cut down even the most durable targets.

And if you think about it Vayne does exactly that and is able to stand on her own

D357R0Y3ROct 11, 20161 votes

"lack of high end burst damage"

you have your problem right there.

HochelagaOct 11, 20161 votes

Vayne tends to be a crazy snowball champion in low division (Bronze-silver-gold-ish)

Vayne tends to be very bad in medium high division (Platinum +++)

There's so much counters to Vayne that I actually feel sorry for her

Please don't tell me that Vayne is too strong right now because she really isn't

MunchCrunchLunchOct 12, 20161 votes

because riot hates bruisers and loves ranged carries for muh big plays. how many bruisers have we seen in worlds huh? or just pro play in general. one or two. and there is like 40 of them.

OyddAWqJ5rOct 12, 20161 votes

It's because Vayne dies in 0.2 seconds when caught by literally anything. Also 70% AD on a single attack. Every other ADC has way more obnoxious steroids.

Best princess EUOct 12, 20161 votes

70 AD isn't for one attack

and her Q steroid is on 1.5 sec cooldown, other adc don't have more obnoxious steroids when %max hp true damage is the most obnoxious steroid.

OyddAWqJ5rOct 12, 20161 votes

Yo ya misread meng, didn't say +70 AD I said +70**%** AD :)

Cuz yknow, Tumble does +30%/40%/50%/60%/70% AD on a single basic attack with a cooldown of 6/5/4/3/2 seconds.

CrazyBear1987Oct 12, 20161 votes

Vayne, like most champs, can be played to be OP. But she is not perfect, if she was you wouldn't see her in games cause she would be 100% banned. She is powerful no doubt, but anybody can complain about any champion with the right build and player. wait for the assassins rework and see how she is, OP or Not, changes expected.