I love it when Maple Nectar talks about Kai'sa

D357R0Y3R·Oct 7, 2018·116 votes·39,528 views

https://i.gyazo.com/4a9c705abe3309a5cecc480c2e6fbc90.png

"our nerf on kai'sa did a good job, now pro players are banning her less!!!"

https://i.gyazo.com/946c1fd0550152b76661547b017cbfc3.png

you sir and the entire balance team do not know how to balance a game at all, you think you did a good job because now pro players aren't banning her. Who on earth would think that Kai'sa is more balanced when she gets 65% win rate over 23 games in a competitive environment EXCEPT YOURSELF?.

but hey, your Lucian buff made him viable in world now right?

https://i.gyazo.com/2f9e128415eeeef90a899fcf9ed5b209.png https://i.gyazo.com/3f88275a768101ee0e25e60472abe44c.png

hey hey, I'm sure if you give him like 10 more damage on W pro players are definitly going to win with him now

4head

236 Comments

RiotRiot MapleNectarOct 7, 2018132 votes

"I also like to put things in quotes that don't reflect what someone said" - D357R0Y3R

Let me rephrase the statement which was from the post where I was talking about why we hadn't nerfed some of the high presence champs in pro play on 8.19. Hope this is clearer for you.

On 8.15/8.16 Kai'sa had high presence in pro play (76%), but had more picks than bans.
On 8.18 we nerfed her.
On 8.19 we opted to not nerf her again due to the fact we'd already nerfed her since the last pro play we'd seen.
On 8.19 we instead buffed some champs that are considered decent against her as a low range marksman (Pyke, Thresh, Kog'maw), while nerfing some that gave her a lot of protection (Braum/Tahm Kench).

We're doing some power curve shifts to Kai'sa for potentially 8.21, but it's more involved than a standard buff/nerf and not something we were going to do for 8.19.

Really enjoy talking on the boards!

Fisherman FizzOct 7, 201815 votes

Would reverting her range back to 500 ever be on the table as a possible change?

EROTIC RAID BOSSOct 7, 20185 votes

prob not unless it was badly needed because its rough on the players to change how a champion intrinsically functions

D357R0Y3ROct 7, 201837 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot MapleNectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JaUFEGAr,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2018-10-07T19:34:33.881+0000)

"I also like to put things in quotes that don't reflect what someone said" - D357R0Y3R

Yes, because I'm making fun of you I think everyone understood that

Let me rephrase the statement which was from the post where I was talking about why we hadn't nerfed some of the high presence champs in pro play on 8.19. Hope this is clearer for you.

On 8.15/8.16 Kai'sa had high presence in pro play (76%), but had more picks than bans.

Yes

On 8.18 we nerfed her.

"nerf"

On 8.19 we instead buffed some champs that are considered decent against her as a low range marksman (Pyke, Thresh, Kog'maw),

it didn't do anything

seriously YOU'RE THE ONLY ONE TO BELIEVE THAT Who except the balance team, would tell you that they managed to make Kai'sa better Her win rate is absurd, IF you play the game yourself you would experience how bullshit that champion is right now

no one, literally no one except the balance team would tell you that Meddler says that Kai'sa has low range as a weakness, how the fuck is that going to matter if everything in range of her dies so fast?

who except the balance team would believe that minus 5% missing health in the last levels on a 5 hit passive would make a champion who has absurd burst damage on Q and stormrazor more balanced

no one So if you want to take us for imbeciles that can't understand what you're doing because obviously you know more than us than that is fine

Really enjoy talking on the boards!

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

SociopathFriendOct 7, 201855 votes

In other news- Boards demand nerfs one after another when a champion doesn't seem to be going down fast enough. In other other news- Boards then wonders why some champions are chain-nerfed into oblivion. In other other other news- Boards then wonders why Riot doesn't listen to the Boards.

saltranOct 7, 201825 votes

"Why is Sejuani gutted for being the best jungler for pro play for like 2 years in a row Rito pls"

"Why isn't Kai'Sa gutted to the ground after being dominant for half of a season????"

KrullyOct 7, 201811 votes

vast majority of players dont give a toss about worlds, any defence using worlds/pro play should be auto deleted

AirKingNeoOct 7, 20186 votes

{quoted}

"Why is Sejuani gutted for being the best jungler for pro play for like 2 years in a row Rito pls"

Except people are complaining that Sej is forced into being a "pro play only" champion because of a shitty rework.

chipndip1Oct 7, 201821 votes

Her kit was shitty BEFORE the rework, anyway.

CaveslothOct 7, 201810 votes

True, she needed work, but that doesn't justify doing a shitty rework job that alienates her playerbase just so she can be good for .0000001% of the league players, and then deciding "oh we don't like seeing her in pro play so yeah, lets nerf the shit out of her". That's Riot in a nutshell. Love a champ in league? Give them time, they'll make you hate it with every fiber of your being. Bought skins for it? Fuck you we've already got your money, sucks to you nerd!

Z3SleeperOct 7, 201811 votes

What the Sej rework did:

Changed W from auto reset + sunfire effect to a skillshot and added a slow
Changed E from love tap then press E for massive slow -> stack it up 4 times for a stun + damage instead
Changed passive from stacking up on hit to being at (well beyond the old) max effect out of combat and dropping 2s after being hit (also grants the same bonus in MR)

Where are the alienating aspects here?

"Oh no, I have to aim my W now???" "Oh no, I have to actually work for my CC now and it's a stun instead of a slow now to compensate???" "Oh no, my passive has been changed so I don't permanently have +75 armor and 75% slow resist in a fight and only get it for 2 seconds at the start but it's significantly stronger for those 2 seconds and gives MR???"

Literally unplayable and alienating. I'm just gonna go hop on the next FotM champion since I feel alienated by Sej's better design choices.

VelasanOct 8, 20183 votes

{quoted}

What the Sej rework did:

Changed W from auto reset + sunfire effect to a skillshot

Changed E from love tap then press E for massive slow -> stack it up 4 times for a stun + damage instead

Changed passive from stacking up on hit to being at max effect out of combat and dropping 2s after being hit

Where are the alienating aspects here?

"Oh no, I have to aim my W now???" "Oh no, I have to actually work for my CC now and it's a stun instead of a slow now to compensate???" "Oh no, my passive has been changed so I don't permanently have +75 armor and 75% slow resist in a fight and only get it for 2 seconds at the start but it's significantly stronger for those 2 seconds and gives MR???"

Literally unplayable and alienating. I'm just gonna go hop on the next FotM champion since I feel alienated by Sej's better design choices.

Hi, I'm a Sejuani player, both before and after the rework.

What people don't like about the rework is not any of the things you are commenting on. The new W is fine, the way the passives work are fine.

The thing that changed her from a solo que champion to a pro play champion is the E. In solo que it's frustrating because it only achieves the maximum potential when you have melee allies who can reliably proc it with crowd control of their own. So, for example, if you are playing Sejuani you have a match made in heaven if you also have a Leona, Braum, or Jax on your team. The problem resides in what happens when you don't have any other champions on your team who can reliably proc it? In short she is extremely team dependent, being amazing when you have 2-3 other teammates who can proc your E and lack luster when you have no one to back you up.

In pro play this makes her extremely good because you can coordinate teams around using her E and the crowd control it provides. In solo play you are never guaranteed to have any of that coordination, and for a champion who is supposed to lead the charge and dive into the enemy team needing your allies to help you in anything except a 1v1 situation (which is also not something Sejuani is made to do) seems weird and definitely not with the thematic or concept.

They also nerfed her ultimate to make way for her new E. The ultimate being one of the main reasons Sej mains like to play her is like taking Veigar and nerfing his R so his W can be better. This is what people are complaining about. It's also becoming worse because now with the nerfs to keep her mediocre in pro play it makes an already bad situation worse for solo que.

If I were going to change her, I would remove the ability for allies to help proc E and then move some of that power back into her ult. Let E activation be a big reward, a nice "gotcha" moment, instead of being super watered down because of the boost it can provide to allies. It also removes the issue for the enemy team of having an unavoidable CC that punishes them just for being in combat by getting instantly frozen at random by an enemy Sejuani lurking on the edges of the fight. The ult at least can miss and being an ultimate with a long cooldown it's okay if it has a longer crowd control or can freeze an extra target or two. I don't feel that kind of power belongs on a basic ability vs attaching it to the ultimate.

They may never change her back, and I would still enjoy the character, but I don't believe the rework made her healthier for the game.

Z3SleeperOct 8, 20189 votes

Wait... The new R is a nerfed version of her old R?? You're talking about the new R that has:

Longer range (1175 -> 1300)
Applies the AoE 30% slow for a longer duration (1.25-1.75 -> 2)
Applies a new 80% AoE slow for 1s after the first 2 second slow
Deals the same amount of damage
Has a shorter cooldown
Has a longer stun at rank 1 (though shorter at rank 3)
Additionally deals 10%-20% max health damage upon damaging the frozen target again

is flat out worse than her old R that doesn't have any of the above?

What did old R have over new R?

It stunned for its full duration no matter the range and dealt its full damage
Damaged all targets near the detonation for its full damage

That's it. That's literally it. But new Sej only requires 400 range on the toss to surpass it in every regard. 400 range is shorter than Graves' basic attack range mind you.

Let's talk about her E though. Oh man this one really gutted how fun she is to play right?

Now instead of being able to press E to massively slow, instead you press W to slow.

But guess what? Not only is her old E slow compensated by the new W slow, her new E also has a stun now.

"But you need melee allies to make use of it!" No! You don't. You just don't. Sejauni is perfectly capable of doing it herself in ganks. Q -> AA -> W -> AA -> E. It's that easy. Having melee allies able to help you proc it is a bonus not a detriment to its use.

It simply means she performs the same without anyone to proc it but excels when she has someone who can.

And she doesn't even need that much help doing it on her own. 1 attack from a melee ally is already more than enough to hasten the stun since AA + W already = 3 stacks.

Even with all the nerfs her new W and E simply outperform the hell out of her old W and E, even without melee allies.

I mean heck, your complaint is basically "it's too strong for a basic ability". I AGREE. IT IS. That's why new Sej is so good.

I really don't understand what's "alienating" old Sej players.

The only thing holding her back is how much Riot keeps gutting her because her kit is simply too good.

VelasanOct 8, 20184 votes

First, it was one of the stated goals of the rework. So, it's easy enough to look back at the post and read it.

However, the big change they made was the old ult could stun as many champions as it hit. That meant that you could R into 3+ of the enemy team and get all of them. Same way as a Malphite ult can catch a grouped enemy team.

The new one only applies the stun to the FIRST enemy champion it hits and creates a slow field based on how far it was thrown. The old was far better for team fighting.

Does that mean the new one is terrible? No, it still works. However, an R that can freeze more than one target is preferable to having that much power placed in her E instead.

Also, a lot of the bonuses you are describing only apply to an ultimate that hits a target who is farther away. You don't get all those bonuses if the target is near you.

IDenounceVeniceOct 8, 20186 votes

Old sej ult stunned all targets within 225 range of the initial target.

Z3SleeperOct 9, 20182 votes

That was dropped in patch 3.6. That was long before the rework.

AlarnockOct 7, 201814 votes

The fact remains you are the worst balance team in the history of online gaming.

SociopathFriendOct 7, 201819 votes

For Honor fans: "Game is unbalanced." Modern Warfare fans: "Game is unbalanced." Overwatch fans: "Game is unbalanced." Heroes of the Storm fans: "Game is unbalanced." Dissidia NT fans: "Game is unbalanced." Smash Bros fans: "This isn't melee and it's trash. Also the game is unbalanced."

But don't worry, League is definitely the WORST balance team what with having more complexity to deal with than any of those games and even several of them combined.

saltranOct 7, 20185 votes

GAMERS RISE UP

BOTTOM TEXT

SafuOct 7, 20189 votes

Question, why not just nerf her again instead of making changes to 5 other champs? It just feels like you're doing too much instead of tackling the main issue.

coreychichiOct 7, 201858 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot MapleNectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JaUFEGAr,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2018-10-07T19:34:33.881+0000)

"I also like to put things in quotes that don't reflect what someone said" - D357R0Y3R

On 8.19 we instead buffed some champs that are considered decent against her as a low range marksman (Pyke, Thresh, Kog'maw), while nerfing some that gave her a lot of protection (Braum/Tahm Kench).

Really enjoy talking on the boards!

You’re nerfing other champs because Kai’sa is too strong?

BestPudgeNAOct 7, 201818 votes

{quoted}

You’re nerfing other champs because Kai’sa is too strong?

Kai'sa is an ADC they can't get meaningful nerfs ever.

charge attackOct 8, 201816 votes

Marksmen have Kalista never received Caitlyn any meaningful Lucian nerfs. There has never been any ADC Corki that got gutted from over Kindred 50% (S tier) win rate to less than 46% (F tier) Ashe in a couple of patches.

Not like Lucian got a range nerf on his autos, Q, ult, W. Mana increase on E and cooldown increase on E. Mana increase on Q.

And still manages to be good because the power level of ADCs is still hilariously low compared to previous seasons.

Tomoe GozenOct 8, 20182 votes

Yes, supports can actually do too good of a job in protecting their carries that the fault sometimes lands on a champion that doesn't deserve it at that time - a la Kai'Sa. When we talk about champions - their power doesn't come just from their kits. It's items, champs, their supports and the enemy team all play a part in their balance.

Josh SandOct 8, 20184 votes

The Braum and Tahm nerfs were targeted at pro play. Those are a pair of supports that Riot has been looking to knock down a peg for a little while now.

But how that ties in to reducing power the power level of Kai'Sa, I'm not entirely sure, because you could still easily pair those champions with any other Marksmen(?). So I don't know how that would change the delta of power between Kai'Sa and the other hypercarries.

SheLeft 08 07 19Oct 7, 201819 votes

I don't know why you keep trying to justify your balance decisions.

You are the guys that brought us Ardent Meta and you guys took almost an entire season to fix it, when the problem was just number tuning and removing 1 thing from it, you shouldn't be trusted with anything

Kai'sa is broken, every pro player knows it, every high elo soloq player knows it. Why do you refuse to give her the big dick nerf hammer? Same goes for Eve/Camille/Irelia/Graves. They have been dominating soloq for months now and yet you refuse to nerf them/their keystones. But god forbid midlane assassins become even remotely viable, then we nerf their kit, their items and their runes respectively!

We need Morello back

Blackii7Oct 7, 201812 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot MapleNectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JaUFEGAr,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2018-10-07T19:34:33.881+0000)

"I also like to put things in quotes that don't reflect what someone said" - D357R0Y3R

Let me rephrase the statement which was from the post where I was talking about why we hadn't nerfed some of the high presence champs in pro play on 8.19. Hope this is clearer for you.

On 8.15/8.16 Kai'sa had high presence in pro play (76%), but had more picks than bans.

On 8.18 we nerfed her.

On 8.19 we opted to not nerf her again due to the fact we'd already nerfed her since the last pro play we'd seen.

On 8.19 we instead buffed some champs that are considered decent against her as a low range marksman (Pyke, Thresh, Kog'maw), while nerfing some that gave her a lot of protection (Braum/Tahm Kench).

We're doing some power curve shifts to Kai'sa for potentially 8.21, but it's more involved than a standard buff/nerf and not something we were going to do for 8.19.

Really enjoy talking on the boards!

Yes, completely negating the fact that she is broken, and to make other picks do well against her, they have to be broken as well.

Pyke buff is absurd, Thresh was one of the best support, now he is THEE BEST support along with Alistar and Pyke. Let alone that Kog is weak, he does absolutely nothing. You nerfed protection, so instead they just pick Kai'sa Alistar, or Kai'sa Thresh. Let alone the fact that she can build LITERALLY everything, AP, AD, CRIT, On-Hit, Poke, bruiser (Yes bruiser Kai'sa exist).

This sums up the balance team, instead of nerfing a broken champion, they buff and break other champions to fix the issue.

HyperTechnoOct 8, 201812 votes

I have lots of respect for your commenting, but you do not understand and want to start an unreasonable fight. Kai'sa has been 3 months OP, she has, a high pick and win rate. Right now.

Your changes back when did not do the work. That is a fact, not an opinion as you put it. You also picked a fight. Instead of being observant and sympathetic, you went on being a dick about it. Dude, what in the world are you doing? You are lucky I am not your boss, I would have fired you. You are just proving the B teams ignorance, illogical, unobservant behavior. If you are part of the team, shame on you. You influence hate, anger, and despair. You are not solving the problem, you are being THE problem. Instead of starting an understanding discussion, you dodge the blame. You are undeserving of that Red Tag. Get yourself out of the sand and do what you are hired to do. Fool.

Weiner the PoohOct 8, 20183 votes

Gotta love how buffing multiple characters instead of nerfing one is considered a solution. I don't understand, this character is a problem for everyone, but at least a few will do okay vs her, which they're really not, nice logic.

BestPudgeNAOct 8, 201810 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot MapleNectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JaUFEGAr,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2018-10-07T19:34:33.881+0000)

"I also like to put things in quotes that don't reflect what someone said" - D357R0Y3R

Let me rephrase the statement which was from the post where I was talking about why we hadn't nerfed some of the high presence champs in pro play on 8.19. Hope this is clearer for you.

On 8.15/8.16 Kai'sa had high presence in pro play (76%), but had more picks than bans.

On 8.18 we nerfed her.

On 8.19 we opted to not nerf her again due to the fact we'd already nerfed her since the last pro play we'd seen.

On 8.19 we instead buffed some champs that are considered decent against her as a low range marksman (Pyke, Thresh, Kog'maw), while nerfing some that gave her a lot of protection (Braum/Tahm Kench).

We're doing some power curve shifts to Kai'sa for potentially 8.21, but it's more involved than a standard buff/nerf and not something we were going to do for 8.19.

Really enjoy talking on the boards!

Riot: "Instead we buffed some champs..... Kog'maw" Me: Reads old patch notes Patch Notes for 8.19: Kog'maw Movement Speed 325>330. R range +100Range rank 1 +50 Rank 2 +0 Rank 3 Riot: That 5 MS buff to Kog'maw gonna put Kai'sa in her place Me: [sg-lux-2] Can't tell if serious or trolling.

PICKLE RICK REEEOct 8, 20184 votes

Kai'sa screamingly broken and gets a single nerf

wow now she's down to a fantastic 65% winrate instead of 76% winrate

instead of nerfing her again, we decided that buffing kog and nerfing her teammates will fix the problem

do you guys smoke crack?

Zeppelins circusOct 7, 201838 votes

I swear releasing Kaisa was a far more worse decision than Zoe.

D357R0Y3ROct 7, 201837 votes

both are as terrible as each other

every recent designs were garbage except maybe pyke

SnugglePuggle94Oct 7, 201828 votes

I think Xayah and Rakan are actually pretty good. Not too over the top like most other designs.

Daddy AntsOct 7, 201813 votes

{quoted}

I think Xayah and Rakan are actually pretty good. Not too over the top like most other designs.

They used to be over the top.

Since 8.11 and Rakan's nerfs this season they are a lot fairer to play against.

PoskeOct 8, 20184 votes

{quoted}

both are as terrible as each other

every recent designs were garbage except maybe pyke

YES PYKE IS A GOOD DESIGN

OUTCLASSES BLITZCRANK, faster better HOOK (YES FKING BETTER ITS BETTER YES IT IS) has stealth higher dmg better cc WTF, Free forgiving bad trades sustain shit

OUTCLASSES KATARINA

10/10 DESIGN

Isnt pyke like pick or ban to on LCS? I assume he is top tier pick

RanmaruOct 7, 20188 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zeppelins circus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JaUFEGAr,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-10-07T12:40:30.832+0000)

I swear releasing Kaisa was a far more worse decision than Zoe.

the zoe qq gang is gonna kill you.

At least with zoe if I get hit by her E to follow up with q I can QSS and zoe cant do anything without her combo while kaisa can just spam her non existant cd on q

y0r1ckOct 7, 201811 votes

Don't say "more worse." "Worse" works fine.

Fízz v2Oct 7, 201826 votes

i think its fine, kaisa should stay op so adc mains can recover from the rough 3 patches where non-adcs were viable bot poor rekkles :(

D357R0Y3ROct 7, 201820 votes

ikr

rekkles legit benched himself when kai'sa ezreal lucian were top3 bottom laners in 8.11

wait i forgot he's trash on ezreal and lucian mybad

Fízz v2Oct 7, 201816 votes

And then all the viable non-adcs got nerfed. I mean they were cancer but still lul

im just sad that people complained way more about mages being good bot in pro play for 3 patches than about assassins barely being played mid in pro for the past 3+ seasons

tfw riot says mid is for mages and assassins but Galio Aatrox Sion have been better mid laners than Zed Katarina Fizz lel

ThefrostyvikingOct 7, 201820 votes

Assassins can fundamentally not be good pro play without being OP.

For the simple reason that all the current assassins basically have the success condition of punishing mistakes in one way or another.

And with pro´s just denying them with all their might and then just teamfighting we have a situation where assassins will basically always be useless, unless OP.

Galio, Aatrox and Sion are all great at teamfighting and they are tough to kill which ironically even counters assassins.

Fízz v2Oct 7, 20184 votes

Shouldnt Riot do something about that then? or is it fine to have a class that is good-op in low elo but mostly useless in high elo?

ThefrostyvikingOct 7, 20189 votes

Can anything actually be done?

The very concept of a teamfight assassin was tested with kata but the end results seem to have been subpar, the moment she was nerfed away from OP she was immediately bad and i can kinda see why, since mages do a similar job from a safer distance.

Even if they end up doing less there is a smaller chance of things going bad which will always be favored by high elo.

D357R0Y3ROct 7, 20186 votes

I have no clue what you're talking about Kata is shit in teamfight where she can instantly get her ult cancelled plus she's heavily telegraphed

Assassins are shit in pro because their early map pressure are insanely garbage compared to mages, don't believe it? explain why Zed stopped showing in pro after they increased his W cd from 18 to 22 sec cd then

ŚhunpoOct 7, 20182 votes

ahem Veteran Katarina, coming through. Actually Katarina, or old Katarina did fill that teamfight assassin niche extremely well, it was her defining feature. Sure, she was lacking in almost every other area, however she always had the potential to clean up in teamfights, so I do think that she was a prime example of what a teamfight assassin could be like and honestly should be like (low base damage, but volatile reset potential).

If we're talking current Kat she's not a teamfight assassin, she's a skirmisher+solo killer. Her delays make her atrocious in teamfights due to the fact that she just pops before her daggers can even hit the ground (assuming this isn't in dumpster elo). She was never a teamfight assassin in this iteration.

Vulpes LunaOct 8, 20182 votes

{quoted}

ahem Veteran Katarina, coming through. Actually Katarina, or old Katarina did fill that teamfight assassin niche extremely well, it was her defining feature. Sure, she was lacking in almost every other area, however she always had the potential to clean up in teamfights, so I do think that she was a prime example of what a teamfight assassin could be like and honestly should be like (low base damage, but volatile reset potential).

If we're talking current Kat she's not a teamfight assassin, she's a skirmisher+solo killer. Her delays make her atrocious in teamfights due to the fact that she just pops before her daggers can even hit the ground (assuming this isn't in dumpster elo). She was never a teamfight assassin in this iteration.

Reads comment

reads server

cool stuff buddy [sg-lux-2]

chipndip1Oct 7, 20183 votes

They did

And look at how many people STILL bitch about Akali.