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Why Talon Is The Most Balanced Assassin

Smitemuffin··34 votes·3,848 views

What does Talon do? Targeted Instant burst. Choose target, commit, kill target. When this guy gets a lead, there's zero to be done about it beyond weather the storm until around 30:00. But that's not what makes him different, that's what makes him like every other assassin. What makes him different is how fair and balanced this champion is.

  1. He has to play like an assassin. Unlike Ahri Ekko Leblanc Zed , Talon lacks a 1600-unit poke range (Zed W+Q) or the ability to rush item 3165 and just waveclear and while he waits for a gank if he gets in a bad spot. Talon actually has to engage with opponents to succeed.

  2. He actually has a significant number of bad matchups. Picking Talon doesn't immediately force the opponent to play another assassin, Malzahar or stare at a gray screen all game. His blink range is short enough to be kitable, his cooldowns are long enough that he can't all-in 3 times before his opponent gets their ult off cooldown, he can't farm perfectly under his turret and he's vulnerable to burst when combined with CC. Any champ with one of those attributes can play a pretty even lane if careful.

  3. He's high risk/high reward, not low risk/high reward. Talon can't go from 0/10 to 30/10 like Katarina , can't all-in with zero risk from 1250 range like Zed or Ahri , doesn't instantly dominate post-6 like Kassadin or win by just having better stats like Diana . Leblanc can 100-0 an ADC at almost every stage of the game with just runes, Stormraider's Surge, summoner 14 item 3285 and item 3020 , so no matter how badly she fails, she can still kill a high-priority target.

  4. He has to play intelligently. Unlike every assassin but Diana , Talon has no instant escape spells unless in very specific situations. When he goes in, he's in. If his opponent smartly manages their positioning until their jungler is around, they can bait a meaningful gank. Talon can't throw everything he has, then just push one button to blink back to safety.

93 Comments

Mael bro21 votes

He's the only true assassin.

Unlike these fake ass LC$ cash money play$ pretenders: Zed Leblanc Ekko Fizz

XANN COULTER2 votes

Then what do you consider those champions?

Mael bro11 votes

[{quoted}](name=BucketHat Nation,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z83oaP7h,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-12-23T19:04:00.555+0000)

Then what do you consider those champions?

They are assassins as well with lots of needlessly flashy abilities and get out of jail free cards for the sake of looking cool.

Virgin Ray3 votes

He's the only true assassin because he has a hood. Zed, leblanc ,ekko, and fizz don't have a hood. So therefore they aren't true assassins.

windwolf7771 votes

SKT1 Zed Mistletoe and Wicked(?) Leblanc Cotton Tail and Tundra Fizz.

Unless you mean base skin (<.<)''

Jefftiffy7 votes

{quoted}

He's the only true assassin.

Unlike these fake ass LC$ cash money play$ pretenders: Zed Leblanc Ekko Fizz

Actually he does AoE nuke a team so, no he isn't a the most balanced assassin. Once he gets gold it doesn't matter who you are, he will kill you and maybe another person. His barrier is mana, if doesn't has it he dies, if he has it you and probably 1-2 other squishies are dead if you don't have at least 2.5k hp and 150+ armor. When he was strong (without being nerfed since then other than his silence removal), he was known to kill 2 people in his initial burst if they were squishies and then kill the bruisers leaving only the tank left for him to kill by themself.

Once again I would like to point to the biggest problem with Talon. His CDs are really low because his mana is his barrier. It isn't his single target damage, because he get's AoE damage and has 2 gap closers. If he were to ever be considered "balanced" he would have to have a window where he is weak, but he doesn't have one right now. Once he hits 3-4 he can bully a lot people in lane or just wait till 6 while slowly poking them down and farming safe until he can just go in at 6. If Talon even gets 1 kill he blows up, similar to Akali, but being harder to predict.

Mael bro1 votes

{quoted}

Actually he doe AoE nuke a team so, no he isn't a the most balanced assassin. Once he gets gold it doesn't matter who you are, he will kill you and maybe another person. His barrier is mana, if doesn't has it he dies, if he has it you and probably 1-2 other squishies are dead if you don't have at least 2.5k hp and 150+ armor. When he was strong (without being nerfed since then other than his silence removal), he was known to kill 2 people in his initial burst if they were squishies and then kill the bruisers leaving only the tank left for him to kill by themself.

Once again I would like to point to the biggest problem with Talon. His CDs are really low because his mana is his barrier. It isn't his single target damage, because he get's AoE damage and has 2 gap closers. If he were to ever be considered "balanced" he would have to have a window where he is weak, but he doesn't have one right now. Once he hits 3-4 he can bully a lot people in lane or just wait till 6 while slowly poking them down and farming safe until he can just go in at 6. If Talon even gets 1 kill he blows up, similar to Akali, but being harder to predict.

I remember that time. Mid season 4 when riot began an assassin witch hunt, removing silence from LB, Talon. But the thing i meant that Talon needs to fully commit to his target and when he's in. The only possible way of him going out alive is killing his target and everyone around him. Not the most healthy design, but the most truest to an assassin class. These other guys have ton of reposition abilities.

ShatteredSkys1 votes

{quoted}

I remember that time. Mid season 4 when riot began an assassin witch hunt, removing silence from LB, Talon. But the thing i meant that Talon needs to fully commit to his target and when he's in. The only possible way of him going out alive is killing his target and everyone around him. Not the most healthy design, but the most truest to an assassin class. These other guys have ton of reposition abilities.

E-AA-Q-W-Tiamat-Ult

It lets Talon use his ult as an escape.

Mael bro1 votes

{quoted}

E-AA-Q-W-Tiamat-Ult

It lets Talon use his ult as an escape.

If you remove your selected target.

What good is an assassin who can't finnish the job?

ShatteredSkys1 votes

{quoted}

If you remove your selected target.

What good is an assassin who can't finnish the job?

This combo does Talon's full damage. You are resetting your AA with your Q, you cancel the W animation with tiamat and you are finishing your target off with your ult. Its his full kit damage while using it as an escape.

Mael bro1 votes

{quoted}

Actually he does AoE nuke a team so, no he isn't a the most balanced assassin. Once he gets gold it doesn't matter who you are, he will kill you and maybe another person. His barrier is mana, if doesn't has it he dies, if he has it you and probably 1-2 other squishies are dead if you don't have at least 2.5k hp and 150+ armor. When he was strong (without being nerfed since then other than his silence removal), he was known to kill 2 people in his initial burst if they were squishies and then kill the bruisers leaving only the tank left for him to kill by themself.

Once again I would like to point to the biggest problem with Talon. His CDs are really low because his mana is his barrier. It isn't his single target damage, because he get's AoE damage and has 2 gap closers. If he were to ever be considered "balanced" he would have to have a window where he is weak, but he doesn't have one right now. Once he hits 3-4 he can bully a lot people in lane or just wait till 6 while slowly poking them down and farming safe until he can just go in at 6. If Talon even gets 1 kill he blows up, similar to Akali, but being harder to predict.

But Talon can be bullied in lane. And once he is shutdown, he's gone from game for good. Unlike Diana Katarina Akali who can go 0/3 in lane and still make a huge comeback and carry a game. Oh and wait, once Talon commits fully to assassinating a target he's in, Zed Fizz Ekko Leblanc these guys have "oops i fucked up" buttons when they suddenly botch their assassinations.

Bladerunner77771 votes

{quoted}

He's the only true assassin.

Unlike these fake ass LC$ cash money play$ pretenders: Zed Leblanc Ekko Fizz

I laughed longer than you would expect

FarRockBF9 votes

If I replace "Talon" with "Master Yi", your post still makes sense. So there are two?

Smitemuffin7 votes

I thought that too, at first. But Yi has a monstrous late game, unlike Talon. And because of his jungle clear speed, Yi reaching late game is more a matter of "if" than "when". That's one of the reasons why you can play Yi without flash, as many Yi mains do

stabby himiko4 votes

It's not high-risk if they all get one-shot and master yi isn't playing against a team of hard cc. Also he can go to 0/10 to 30/10. After sated rageblade and other random crap to help melt your hp in a second

FarRockBF3 votes

{quoted}

It's not high-risk if they all get one-shot and master yi isn't playing against a team of hard cc. Also he can go to 0/10 to 30/10. After sated rageblade and other random crap to help melt your hp in a second

It's easy to say that but if the enemy team has ONE hard CC Yi will melt in a teamfight. Also, he has no dash escape...

Smitemuffin3 votes

No, he has a minion/champ -targeted dash like Talon. But Talon's also doesn't make him untargetable, nor does he have that Meditank. Yi can brute force alot of fights just because he can tank off his opponent's burst

terkmc1 votes

Well, Master Yi does have one problem is that he can continue killing after he assassinate the first target, while Talon on CD doesn't do much

Bouncemaster Zac1 votes

{quoted}

If I replace "Talon" with "Master Yi", your post still makes sense. So there are two?

Yi falls in the "wins just by having better stats" category with Diana.

YumaS2Astral1 votes

{quoted}

Yi falls in the "wins just by having better stats" category with Diana.

True

Yi's base stats are surprisingly good

Erockandroll8 votes

I can't say I agree with everything you just said. Mostly in the sense that Dedicated Assassins really arn't balanceable.

  1. Giving an Assassin poor wave clear, tends to make them fall behind. because a) they easily get pushed into their turret. (only way around that is if they get Jungler assistance.) and b) if they get pushed in, they can't roam without lossing creeps to the tower, which puts them farther behind. And something else, Assassin really arn't allowed to farm champions anymore, which makes Feast or famine balance really not work. But all said and done, Talon still has his Rake, so he's not completely free of Waveclear himself.

  2. I'm pretty sure that Assassins in general, have a few more matchups which they can go even in. Mostly Burst mages, who share the same damage, but not their dive potential. Assassin have a much tougher time going up against the like of say, Viktor. Now granted, Assassin can out roam them, but your won't be staring at a gray screen.

  3. This argument has a little more merit. But I do find your claims a little exadurated. Kat, isn't going to be doing the same level of burst as most other assassins. In fact, the fact that her resets form the core of her kit, really makes her better for mop up, rather than taking down that high priority target, so she doesn't even fill the same role as most assassins. As for Ahri, I stopped thinking of her as an Assassin entirely. They took away her damage amplification, and put it on her AoE and her mobility. That's not Assassin, that's just a really mobile mage. But that's not what makes the champion Low risk/high reward in the first place. It's their non Assassin abilities that make them good. If your fed, You can assassinate anyone you want. If your behind, You can split push, gank, any number of things really that prevent your from becoming useless.

  4. The whole argument of Intelligent play does more to work against Assassin than for them. The smarter your opponents are, the fewer opening Assassin as a whole have to make play. Regardless of what tools they have in their kit.

Long story short. The very fact that Talon may be the most Balance around the definition of Assassin, illustrates why Assassin may be the most finicky role out their.

fééd l0rd7 votes

I don't think Talon is balanced. His laning is weak but if he snowballs.. he just e's you and you are immediately dead as adc. Same goes for Rengar. Zed for example or Ekko will not assassinate you in 1 second. If Zed ults you you can dodge his shurikens, you can use qss/(zhonias), escape spells like trickster or elise repel. Therefore Zed is a safer version of Talon. Yi is also a pretty healthy assassin. He can dodge everything but it's kinda hard to dodge ''everything''. He is squishy and can be bursted down really quickly. Same goes for Fizz.

Edit: I absolutly don't want to say Talon is free elo, op or something. I just want to say that he is not as balanced as you want to make him look like.

YumaS2Astral1 votes

{quoted}

I don't think Talon is balanced. His laning is weak but if he snowballs.. he just e's you and you are immediately dead as adc. Same goes for Rengar. Zed for example or Ekko will not assassinate you in 1 second. If Zed ults you you can dodge his shurikens, you can use qss/(zhonias), escape spells like trickster or elise repel. Therefore Zed is a safer version of Talon. Yi is also a pretty healthy assassin. He can dodge everything but it's kinda hard to dodge ''everything''. He is squishy and can be bursted down really quickly. Same goes for Fizz.

Edit: I absolutly don't want to say Talon is free elo, op or something. I just want to say that he is not as balanced as you want to make him look like.

I wouldn't say that Yi is healthy either. He is unduelable, even tanks have a hard time doing anything against him once he has Devourer + BotRK (or Guinsoo, or both) - The only real way to beat Yi is to use a hard CC and focus him but he can mitigate this problem somewhat, by building a little tanky.

fééd l0rd1 votes

{quoted}

I wouldn't say that Yi is healthy either. He is unduelable, even tanks have a hard time doing anything against him once he has Devourer + BotRK (or Guinsoo, or both) - The only real way to beat Yi is to use a hard CC and focus him but he can mitigate this problem somewhat, by building a little tanky.

he is supposed to outduel nearly anyone. In midgame a Zed or Talon wins vs him also Rengar and Diana can burst him down quickly enough. Also Trundle can duel him. Rammus is also strong against Yi.

SirNewton124 votes

Ahh I like the argument.... The problem with most other assassins is that they are WAY TOO SAFE... Talon has no escape besides his ult, but that's supposed to be damage so... Talon also has this problem of being super duper weak early compared to other assassins and has no long range poke. If talon gets a kill and starts snowballing then it's over, but it's very hard to do that without some help, especially pre6, other assassins like zed are way stronger pre6 and safer (his shadow.)

DemiluniS2 votes

it's less of the fact that other assasins are safer. It's just that talon is a one dimensional champion. if he does more damage that you there's literaly nothing you can do to stop him. If you got ahead he's won't be able to contribute anything and just gonna die.

Smitemuffin1 votes

This is my point exactly.

Zed "I screwed up in lane and failed? Guess I'll just have to abuse my 1600-unit poke and waveclear to effortlessly farm until I become one of the best few split pushers in the game"

Katarina "I'm 0/10? That's okay, I'll just faceroll and get a Pentakill"

Ekko "I totally failed in lane? Fine, I'll just 1-shot the minions with Luden's Me and farm until I can 2-shot people"

Leblanc "I've been a total failure all game and only have 1 item by 18? It's okay, with Stormraider's Surge, item 3020 and item 3285 , I still burst for over 2200 and can instant-pop and ADC, especially if I have summoner 14

Rengar "Lux is 18/0? Good thing I got 3 kills before I died 11 times so I can 2-shot her in .33 seconds

Athenes Lulu4 votes

He actually has to use some form of thought upon escaping, he can't just mash a button and BOOM, I'm safe. He has to RUN.

Hayaishi23 votes

And what do all assassins you mentioned have? counterplay (Except for fucking LB) which is something Talon doesn't have.

Smitemuffin6 votes

Talon does indeed have counterplay. He can be disengaged, poked and is easily held back by cc.

Hayaishi24 votes

{quoted}

Talon does indeed have counterplay. He can be disengaged, poked and is easily held back by cc.

That isn't counterplay, everyone can be disengaged or held back by CC.

If Talon jumps on you there is no outplay potential, you're going to eat his burst and you'll only survive if he doesn't have enough damage. Instant unavoidable Aoe Burst isn't healthy.

Smitemuffin4 votes

False. LeBlanc, Kassadin and Akali cannot, because they have more dashes in than virtually any champion has spells to disengage them with. Ekko can't really either.

As for stopping him if he jumps on you: Anivia can stun, burst then cut him off with her wall

Azir will bounce Talon into his turret, and then he's stuck there

Lissandra will snare him and walk away or stun him and kill him if he's kinda low

Brand will stun you and blast you into next week

Chogath will bounce you up, walk away and silence you when you hit the ground. Or eat you.

Malzahar can stop you with a silence before you get in blink range

Swain Ow. Just ow.

Velkoz see Swain, because he knows exactly where you're going to be for his knockup

Ziggs you fly one way, he flies the other

Hayaishi26 votes

{quoted}

False. LeBlanc, Kassadin and Akali cannot, because they have more dashes in than virtually any champion has spells to disengage them with. Ekko can't really either.

As for stopping him if he jumps on you: Anivia can stun, burst then cut him off with her wall

Azir will bounce Talon into his turret, and then he's stuck there

Lissandra will snare him and walk away or stun him and kill him if he's kinda low

Brand will stun you and blast you into next week

Chogath will bounce you up, walk away and silence you when you hit the ground. Or eat you.

Malzahar can stop you with a silence before you get in blink range

Swain Ow. Just ow.

Velkoz see Swain, because he knows exactly where you're going to be for his knockup

Ziggs you fly one way, he flies the other

Brand Azir Ziggs don't have enough damage to punish Talon at level 6 for going in, the others are meant to counter Assassin type champions.

None of them avoid talon abilities they simply defend themselves.

I know truth must hurt, but Talon isn't better than any other Assassin when it comes to counterplay.

Smitemuffin1 votes

Lol. I can't believe somebody just said Brand doesn't have enough damage....

Stiv12344 votes

What is the counterplay to Zed Ekko Fizz then? Dodge their skillshots? At point-blank range? Yeah sure... Literally the only thing which is less healthy about Talon is that his burst is (a little bit) quicker, but if you see him coming (i.e. have warded properly), thats no problem at all.

Handin Out Naps3 votes

Are you actually asking what Zeds counterplay is? Is that actually a question? Like bruh.

Hayaishi22 votes

{quoted}

What is the counterplay to Zed Ekko Fizz then? Dodge their skillshots? At point-blank range? Yeah sure... Literally the only thing which is less healthy about Talon is that his burst is (a little bit) quicker, but if you see him coming (i.e. have warded properly), thats no problem at all.

Zed has counterplay, you can dodge all his abilities, you can dodge Ekko's Q, but everyone agrees Ekko isn't healthy, neither is Fizz.

Talon isn't healthier than any of them, and none of them except Zed are healthy.

Stiv12343 votes

Zed has counterplay, you can dodge all his abilities

... You can dodge exactly one of his abilities (his Q), the other three and his autoattacks are targeted. However even Q is pretty much impossible to miss for Zed at pointblank range, especially if he slows you beforehand.

Smitemuffin1 votes

Remember: "point-blank range" for Zed is about 800 units

LordGeovanni1 votes

unless you can go untargetable and end up next to the enemy at point blank range but no one can do that that would be unthinkable

Faded Lich2 votes

{quoted}

That isn't counterplay, everyone can be disengaged or held back by CC.

If Talon jumps on you there is no outplay potential, you're going to eat his burst and you'll only survive if he doesn't have enough damage. Instant unavoidable Aoe Burst isn't healthy.

item 3157 item 3026 summoner 3 summoner 21 item 3812 item 3143 There is some counter play.

Anivia point blank stun Annie stun Azir wall Xerath stun Fizz Trollpoll Vladimir pool Kindred ult Bard ult Rammus his existence Vayne Knock back/possible stun Ahri charm/counter burst Ekko Intelligent play/W/R Diana Her existence Heimerdinger Good turret placement + stun Lux lol range/shield/snare/counter burst Orianna shield+ult Ryze his existence Yasuo Windwall/knock up

I can keep going if you'd like me tob but there is more than enough counter play to talon in this game both in items and in champ kits. You just really need to l2p.

Hayaishi22 votes

[{quoted}](name=Faded Lich,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z83oaP7h,comment-id=0005000000000003,timestamp=2015-12-23T20:48:05.218+0000)

item 3157 item 3026 summoner 3 summoner 21 item 3812 item 3143 There is some counter play.

Anivia point blank stun Annie stun Azir wall Xerath stun Fizz Trollpoll Vladimir pool Kindred ult Bard ult Rammus his existence Vayne Knock back/possible stun Ahri charm/counter burst Ekko Intelligent play/W/R Diana Her existence Heimerdinger Good turret placement + stun Lux lol range/shield/snare/counter burst Orianna shield+ult Ryze his existence Yasuo Windwall/knock up

I can keep going if you'd like me tob but there is more than enough counter play to talon in this game both in items and in champ kits. You just really need to l2p.

i dont understand why is this so hard to understand...

If you build randuins you're reducing the damage, but you're still taking damage you can't avoid, and thus talon's abilities have no counterplay.

if you CC talon, that's effective counterplay. however that doesn't mean Talon's kit has inherent counterplay.

Do i need to explain you more how does counterplay works? He may or may not be balanced at the moment which is irrelevant, fact is he lacks inherent counterplay in his kit. You can stop him by having a CC that can stop his combo which is completely dependent on what champion you play and COUNTERPICKING IS NOT THE SAME AS COUNTERPLAY.

Faded Lich1 votes

{quoted}

i dont understand why is this so hard to understand...

If you build randuins you're reducing the damage, but you're still taking damage you can't avoid, and thus talon's abilities have no counterplay.

if you CC talon, that's effective counterplay. however that doesn't mean Talon's kit has inherent counterplay.

Do i need to explain you more how does counterplay works? He may or may not be balanced at the moment which is irrelevant, fact is he lacks inherent counterplay in his kit. You can stop him by having a CC that can stop his combo which is completely dependent on what champion you play and COUNTERPICKING IS NOT THE SAME AS COUNTERPLAY.

You know what reduces your damage more than Randuins? Death.

Guess what else you can't avoid but has plenty of counter play? Auto-attacks.

You're an idiot.

You don't know how counter play or league of legends works.

I don't have the energy to waste on you to give a better post due to the stupidity of it.

http://blog.givelify.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Princess_Bride_That_Word.jpg

Hayaishi22 votes

[{quoted}](name=Faded Lich,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z83oaP7h,comment-id=000500000000000300000000,timestamp=2015-12-24T05:13:22.640+0000)

You know what reduces your damage more than Randuins? Death.

Guess what else you can't avoid but has plenty of counter play? Auto-attacks.

You're an idiot.

You don't know how counter play or league of legends works.

I don't have the energy to waste on you to give a better post due to the stupidity of it.

http://blog.givelify.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Princess_Bride_That_Word.jpg

hah whatever makes you sleep at night.

DemiluniS2 votes

every assasin can be locked down by cc and die. all the assasins are melee except of 1, and it's leblanc, who's way squshier then the rest, and it's based on the simple fact that she's the only one who doesn't get mr per level. so they all can be poked easily

YumaS2Astral1 votes

{quoted}

every assasin can be locked down by cc and die. all the assasins are melee except of 1, and it's leblanc, who's way squshier then the rest, and it's based on the simple fact that she's the only one who doesn't get mr per level. so they all can be poked easily

Nidalee

Troy2426212 votes

Shaco plays like a true assassin as well,...Why do people forget my main :c?

Smitemuffin2 votes

I actually didn't forget Shaco. I just didn't bring him up because I don't think he's strong enough and hasn't been since Season 3. I'd love to see him a bit more powerful

Troy2426214 votes

{quoted}

I actually didn't forget Shaco. I just didn't bring him up because I don't think he's strong enough and hasn't been since Season 3. I'd love to see him a bit more powerful

He's really not weak. He's not as good as the meta picks but he has so much room to outplay people that you can still hard carry with him, even up into Diamond.

Joe Dredd2 votes

I'd love to see him a bit more powerful

u actually want shaco buffs holy shit

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