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Question for high elo or RIOT employee

Radiant Wukong··5 votes·475 views

Why are there manaless champions? What is the idea behind their design?

When I'm laning against a Riven Renekton Rumble Vladimir Mordekaiser Kled Gnar etc I'm always caught up in counting their spell cycles when we're both low health and I'm oom. We both hit level 6 and they have about 150 - 200 less health than me but I have to recall because my ability resource is exhausted. I have about 105 mana remaining but need 250+ mana with any champ to pull off my combo to finish them off.

Not to mention the trade off of them only having to buy regular health pots is just [slayer-jinx-unamused]

There's losing lane because you were outplayed, losing lane due to lack of knowledge. But when you do everything the right way only to lose because your enemy has an infinite resource that you don't... that's frustrating!

The point of this post isn't to vent and complain, I simply feel ignorant to the manaless champion design and yearning for clarity.

So please, enlighten me, but I forewarn you, please do not say their power is gated as compensation for them being manaless because none of these champs have a weak early, mid or late game.

25 Comments

DunkinNoobs3 votes

Rather than asking why some champs are manaless, a better question is why any champs have mana. Come up for a reason for mana to exist and the reason that manaless champs exist with the kits they do starts to make sense.

Radiant Wukong1 votes

Honestly, I believe all champs should be manaless and it should come down to kit* design. I think it's cheap that I have to invest 1500+ gold* into an item that rewards mana or chase down blue buffs when other champions can invest* fully into damage, health and resistances.

DunkinNoobs1 votes

You'd have to gut poke and allied shield/healing abilities if you wanted to get rid of mana.

Radiant Wukong1 votes

I just want every champ on the same basic functionality. League of Legends is absolutely the only game that gives it's roster different power sources. As far as diversity and "balance" goes, it's on par with Street Fighter games.

My biggest issue with manaless champions outside of spam is simply how they can invest directly into their power and defense, strengthening their weaknesses and boosting their strengths. Meanwhile champs like Cho'gath, Wukong, Yorick, Ezreal, Kog'maw, Pantheon, etc have to first dedicate at least a quarter of their early game gold into an items that still won't allow them to cycle their abilities as much as manaless champs who have without a doubt rushed CDR.

DunkinNoobs1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Radiant Wukong,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z7eFqYdH,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2017-06-05T14:40:07.188+0000)

I just want every champ on the same basic functionality. League of Legends is absolutely the only game that gives it's roster different power sources. As far as diversity and "balance" goes, it's on par with Street Fighter games.

Consistency is not inherently a good thing, and demanding consistency out of a sense of fairness severely restricts possible champion designs. And regardless of how you feel about Riven or Yasuo, they do present rather unique designs for champions that are gated in a way that doesn't involve resources. In the case of Riven, it's about a champion with no resource gating and several low impact spells that will be spammed. In the case of Yasuo, it's about managing your shield, your individual Q and E stacks, your E CD's on specific enemies, his very long CD on his W, and finally the fact that his ult is unusable without an allied knockup or proper management of your Q stacks. Those 2 champs are designs that simply wouldn't work with mana because either the mana costs would be too high and the abilities strengthened to compensate or too low and largely ignored.

Malfectious4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Radiant Wukong,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z7eFqYdH,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-06-05T14:06:24.082+0000)

Honestly, I believe all champs should be manaless and it should come down to kit design. I think it's cheap that I have to invest 1500+ golf into an item that rewards mana or chase down blue buffs when other champions can incest fully into damage, health and resistances.

Lol...auto correct tends to use words you use often...

Radiant Wukong2 votes

Lmao fuck

EcchiOtakuTM1 votes

Lmfao gottem.

RookPusher2 votes

That would make sense of a lot of the mana champs needed to be curbed in some way. But there's no logical reason why Maokai or Malphite needs to be limited while Riven doesn't.

Riven is outlandishly strong.

DunkinNoobs1 votes

{quoted}

That would make sense of a lot of the mana champs needed to be curbed in some way. But there's no logical reason why Maokai or Malphite needs to be limited while Riven doesn't.

There's actually a very good reason why those 2 champs have mana and Riven doesn't regardless of her state of balance. Those 2 champs have ranged poke spells and Riven doesn't. Those 2 champs don't need to use all their abilities to trade and Riven does. And finally, because Riven doesn't have to worry about mana and can instead rush damage, her base damages are balanced around the idea that Riven will be rushing damage. If she gets shit on and can't or chooses not to, Riven doesn't really do anything. Yasuo works precisely the same way: rush damage or watch your damage fall off a cliff due to your very mediocre bases damages. You can at least understand why Riven and Yasuo being able to viably rush tank stats would be problematic, right? Just look at what happened when Fizz and Ekko decided that their base damages are enough and started rushing Sunfire Cape.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

Pantheon "Mana ? what's that ?"

DunkinNoobs3 votes

Panth would have a 60%+ winrate if he could just spam all his spells off CD, especially in the jungle where mana constraints are his biggest weakness.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku2 votes

have u ever lane against a pantH ??? his mana isn't even an issue. btw he have the highest wr

TimX24968B1 votes

he's my new goto ban after I found someone who can deal with teemo in lane. (ty sion). still looking for someone who can beat pantheon in lane, but someone who fits my playstyle.

Fondling Gems1 votes

AP Nasus if you want to ruin someone's day. Pretty sure there isn't really anything AP Nasus doesn't counter. Actually I imaging normal Nasus would do pretty well into it, but at that point you might as well be stacking too. Plus that is only in blind pick and therefore doesn't matter.

TimX24968B1 votes

He's one of those laners who I tend to see wins off of harass. If you outright duel him, you should be fine.

Fondling Gems1 votes

Have you tried to duel an AP Nasus? Hint, you can duel him about as well as you can duel a Xerath, as in you can duel him if you get to him.

Even then though Nasus one shots the entire minion wave very early game, which means you have to fight him + 6-7 minions. On top of that if you ever jump on him he can just wither and walk away. If he ever gets into a really bad situation he can just ult and walk away.

Since he doesn't really need anything else either he tends to just run TP, so if you don't kill him he will just back and TP in again.

There really isn't anything that can fight him, not when he clears waves so easily. Perfect CS after a certain point too.

The Fuzzy 0ne2 votes

I wonder if it's less about mana and more about play style. All of these champs are more or less all in champs. Maybe the idea is to give champs with poke less ability to sustain during fights with their mana constraints. Though this doesn't account for Gnar poke or why Maokai and Malphite and Panth all have mana even though they're more or less all in champs as well though the answer might also lie within their respective lore and have little to do with actual gameplay

AdeBug1 votes

renek can E in, poke u with (W and) Q, E out, farm, repeat. He doesn't need to go all in every trade

The Fuzzy 0ne1 votes

That's more of a combo trade... idk i see poke champs as people with ranged autos or abilities that they can use to harass from safety but that is my perspective

AdeBug1 votes

im not questioning your terminology. poke champ or not, they dont have to go all in every time\trade. that was my point. that im repeating

The Fuzzy 0ne1 votes

I know, I was trying to say that using your whole combo, imo, is more of an all in than it is a poke, though at the end of the day tis but a trade. My initial point was that renekton is more of an all in champ overall. Trading in lane never has to be an all in even if you're playing an all in champion

I Love Thresh1 votes

Vlad and Morde use their health to cast instead of mana. for the rest though, I wish there was some sort of resource for them to be used too.

Radiant Wukong1 votes

Health management for them is irrelevant.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

Space out your spells more and go in hard when they are on cooldown.

Also a lot of those guys are lane-bullies who are kinda designed to be oppressive in lane. If you survive the lane and make it to mid/late game then count it a win. Also (depending on you you are playing) the moment you get items under your belt you will be able to start kicking their teeth in.

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