Please don't release Neeko with

Radiant Wukong··94 votes·22,037 views

**30DEC2018 @0730 FINAL UPDATE: **I'm completely under the impression that a lot of you are unaware of how many D1 and higher YouTube streamers there are with PBE access. Too many people think her full damage is hard to pull off. You can literally go to www.youtube.com and search "Neeko" to see how reliable her Q and ult actually are. That is all.

Q 480 (+90% ap) magic damage (update: Yes, I know it's a triple proc. For reference, if you've ever been stunned by Viktor's Gravity Field, you're just as likely to get hit by all 3 procs). and R 650 (+130% ap) magic damage

Before anybody downvotes this. Please look at the ratios of every burst mage and ap assassin. NONE OF THEM DEAL THIS MUCH DAMAGE!

And they're both AoE abilities!

Update: She also gets a 110 (+50% ap) shield + 80 base per nearby enemy champion.

2nd Update: "But what do her other abilities do?" Her W active is a controllable version LeBlanc's passive with a movement speed boost for her and her clone, that can be activated as often as Wukong's decoy. Passively, every third auto gives her bonus magic damage and movement speed without having a cooldown between procs.

E is an ability with on-par damage that stuns for 1.5-3 seconds, capable (though unlikely) of hitting your entire team.

Don't compare her to Zoe, they're nothing alike besides both being colorful and cheery.

171 Comments

macspam35 votes

Really looking forward to those "Neeko pressed R, dealt 2000 damage to entire team" outplays, sounds more busted than brand or MF ult ffs

Ravenhale14 votes

More like Fiddlesticks and Morgana, considering it's an ult that centers about her.

Illabethe10 votes

{quoted}

More like Fiddlesticks and Morgana, considering it's an ult that centers about her.

And where is Morgana in the meta right now? Oh right..... Buried way way at the bottom, because her Ult more often kills her than the other team.....

Yara03 votes

TFW your excited for a character you might enjoy and riot makes their numbers so absurdly high the champ will never see the light of day and might become the next Zoe case where everyone hates them because they were op as shit on release.

Steingeirdan33 votes

Wait, those are the actual numbers?

Edit: I think Neeko is going to have the Zoe problem, because her passive nor her w doesn't do any damage, so they have to make up for that in other abilities, which is why the ratios are as high as they are.

YuGiHo1 votes

are lux numbers high? because she doesn't do damage with her w and her passive requires you to hit a spell first to activate it to do damage so i feel like they may play the same; hit the root the throw the aoe ult if needed. also neeko w does do damage btw, it empowers every 3rd auto on top of the active component very similar to jax ult

Emo Twink10 votes

Lux full combo (q auto e ult auto) full build is roughly 3000 damage, Zoe's is around 3200ish. But Neeko, without ult is 2600. With ult, it goes up to 3600. Her ult numbers and maybe base on Q need proper tuning before her release.

SociaI Justice2 votes

now compare the amount of time it takes lux to q auto e ult auto compared to zoe and neeko

Automated Riven6 votes

Far shorter. Less then 1.5 seconds. Zoe also has to wait for bubble is it's about the same for those two. Luxes problem is she doesn't want to be in auto range.

Dr Dog12 votes

neekos w is a three hit passive with good ap scaling, its not burst but it does dmg and gives her a speed boost

FOR JUSTICE28 votes

it wont matter considering shes just gonna be permabanned every game.

Nausicäa 18 votes

Stupid and misleading thread.

Lets compare this to Morgana Q- 300 (+ 90% AP) R- 600 (+140% AP)

Are you gonna say Morgana is busted now too?

You list Neeko's Q damage and fail to mention that it triggers 2 times after the initial cast so the only way to get full damage is if your target is CCed or they are standing still(aka terrible)

If Neeko Q + Rs a non CCed target shes actually doing LESS damage than a fucking Morgana.

Squishy no mobility mage with a short range ultimate that deals a lot of damage clearly busted.

dark100dark1003 votes

Morg R has a 3 sec delay, and 500 range leash. You can only catch those who died anyway.

chipndip116 votes

You're taking those out of context real hard.

Radiant Wukong14 votes

How can you take actual data out of context?

ODiiiiiN3 votes

by taking them out of context? You're acting like its all about numbers and not situations.

I could say having 5000hp is op. There's your data... but did I mention I have 0 armor?

She has stronger abilities to compensate for not having dmg on her W and barely nothing on E. Its a lot like Zoe.

Krupaz2 votes

Yeah she only has a 3 second root to hold down the enemy to get her e damage off dang no damage i cri evry tim

ODiiiiiN2 votes

3 second bro? why u dropping fake news here? its .5 seconds and IF she hits the last target its like 1.5. Which means it needs to go through a bunch of people first for the last person hit to be held for 1.5. In other words that person would already be far from her. Her root is only good so u can land a Q real quick other wise she would never hit anything. The whole rest of her gameplay is trying to scooby doo people to get her ult off.

Krupaz2 votes

Are you being facetious or lying? If she gets at least 2 targets first the root is 3 seconds at rank 5.

ODiiiiiN3 votes

I'm the one being facetious? who's saying she has a 3 second root without explaining how it works first? You dont just root someone for 3 seconds with her, nowhere does it even say its 3 seconds once you get the last root. You root them for 1.5 at rank 5. IF and that's a situational IF.. you get the root to go through two people or minions first THEN the last person hit gets rooted for a little longer. **nowhere **does its say its 3 seconds. For all we know its 2 or 2.5 at rank 5. And you're just not gonna have her E to rank 5 till end game. So its not just.. "oh she can root you for 3 secs" no.

7/10 times you cast that E root ure going to catch someone for 1 sec tops.

Krupaz2 votes

Nowhere? Where do you see it saying 1.5 that doesn't mention 3? And what makes you assume that you're maxing w second for sure?

Rathar Dashing10 votes

The wage gap between men and women is 77%.

LunarFoxz1 votes

Maybe for different jobs

Rathar Dashing13 votes

Exactly, it's an example of data being taken out of context.

chipndip15 votes

Your taking situational max output and displaying it as the move's normal damage output.

DearPear3 votes

{quoted}

Your taking situational max output and displaying it as the move's normal damage output.

It's kinda like focusing on Jhin's W's AD ratio to claim he's op, when the thing almost never hits anyone.

Unemployed Ninja9 votes

Lets look at this from a total damage perspective, because that's essentially what you're doing. That damage is only accurate if every proc of Q hits, so lets at least be fair with some other champions here and assume all of their damage goes off, we'll include Neekos E in this as well, just to keep with, you know, being fair.

Neeko: Q: 260-500 (+50-90%)

E: 220 (+40%)

R: 640 (+130%)

Total: 1360 (+220-260%)

Ziggs

Q: 255 (+65%)

W: 210 (+35%)

E: 180 (+30%) (assuming you somehow only hit 1 mine)

R: 600 (+110%)

Total 1245 (+240%)

Veigar

Q: 230 (+60%)

W: 300 (+100%)

R: 325-650 (+75-150%)

Total: 855-1180 (+235-310%)

Syndra

Q: 230 (+65%)

W: 230 (+70%)

E: 250 (+60%)

R: 540-1260 (+60-140%)

Total: 1250-1970 (+255-335%)

Ahri

Q: 140-280 (+35-70%)

W: 140-224 (+30-48%)

E: 180 (+40%)

R: 120-450 (+35-75%)

Total: 580-1134 (+140-233%)

Katarina

Passive: 240-480 (+100-200%) (I'm including the possibility of picking up both daggers on a single target)

Q: 195 (+30%)

E: 75 (+25%)

R 50-750 (+19-285%)

Total 560-1500 (+174-540%)

Ultimately, I'd say Neeko might be a LITTLE overtuned if she stays the way she is, but I don't feel like it will be excessive, she falls in the general area of a lot of these damages. I'd say we should wait and see how well she performs on live servers after a couple of weeks.

Disclaimer, I've only recently come back to LoL after a while of being gone, if numbers are inaccurate, let me know, I'll fix them.

GrReaper964 votes

I think you might wanna take into consideration Neekos shield that comes with her R and maybe her 3 hit passive

DracosKasu11 votes

Like you need to take to considaration that Veigar can scale without limit on AP, Ahri does true dmg on the Q return, Syndra Ult scale with the amount of ball on the ground and Katarina have cd reduction on kill.

Arammus8 votes

you seem to be confused my friend. neeko has to be released op like every champion. so people buy it.

Ravenhale6 votes

Q - 80 / 135 / 190 / 245 / 300 (+ 90% AP) with 2 / 2.25 / 2.5 / 2.75 / 3 second Root Duration

E - 120 / 240 / 360 / 480 / 600 (+ 165% AP) [Maximum damage over 5 seconds]

R - 300 / 450 / 600 (+ 140% AP) [Total damage after 3 second delay]

E & R are both AoE

Radiant Wukong4 votes

I think you mean W, sounds like Morgana

Ravenhale3 votes

Yea. And I'm thinking when people get more familiar with Meeko, she's going to be about that level of nuisance.

Radiant Wukong5 votes

{quoted}

Yea. And I'm thinking when people get more familiar with Meeko, she's going to be about that level of nuisance.

Morgana is rarely built full ap though. She's mostly an off-tank support utility role. I still have to lane against her top a lot in high elos, but she still doesn't build damage.

Larriet6 votes

E is an ability with on-par damage that stuns

Roots. Not the same.

Zyra Morgana Lux Why do so many people make this mistake? Do they just not care?

Rathar Dashing3 votes

Lol I've had so many complaints when playing Morgana about "ugh Q stun too long that's stupid I couldn't do anything"

Support 4 Lyfe4 votes

She has really short range, plus, Annie's Q scales with 80% ap, has insanely high base damage, and on a 4s cooldown that gets reduced by 50% if she kills a unit, low mana costs as well.

Her W can stun a whole team, she has built in damage reduction with E, her ultimate is high burst then DoT that scales incredibly well and can hit an entire team and stun them as well, she has singlehandedly the highest burst in the game.

I don't see anyone complaining about her? Why? Because she's immobile as shit and has really low range, just like Neeko here.

Zerenza4 votes

Okay so let's look at these burst mages, i'm not going to be looking at DPS mages because they're a different class.

Ahri Zoe Lux Syndra Taliyah Velkoz Leblanc

Syndra R: Magic Damage per sphere at level 16 180+20%AP(if she has 5 or 6 sphere's though i believe your max is 8 she has the same AP Ratio and more base damage than neeko.)

Vel'Koz R: At level 16 800+125%AP ignoring the fact that he deals True Damage during it.

Ahri: Q, 280+70% AP half of which is true damage ignoring the fact her E makes her deal 20% more damage with all of her abilities.

Lux: 500+75% AP on R, 50% CDR on it as well if it kills.

Zoe: 105+425+150%AP on her Q as the max possible damage at level 16 ignoring her E's bonus damage.

Taliyah: 510+135% AP on Q, 140+40%AP on W and 279+93%AP on her E keep in mind at level 3 this champ will one shot you in a combo.

Leblanc: She can cast all of her abilities twice with her Ultimate so her ratio's are lower but if you take her W it does this. 235+60%AP+450+70% AP

I think you get the idea now, pretty much every burst mage has extremely high damage ratio's on their big abilities and the harder it is to hit the ability or the more they rely on it the more likely that ability is to have high ratios(Zoe). Neeko has to hit E first then hit her Q then put herself in danger to use her R and honestly i think she risks enough to warrant the ratio on her Q for example and the Ratio on her R because for most of the game it doesn't do anywhere near that damage but i appreciate using the champ at level 16+ despite the fact most games do not make it that far.

TheZacStreetBoys3 votes

I think this is mostly to make up for her lack of mobility, but what do I know.

Radiant Wukong7 votes

Lissandra Annie Anivia AurelionSol Cassiopeia Gragas Karthus Orianna Taliyah Ziggs don't do those numbers and are also immobile

SweedishGunner19 votes

In what world is Liss, Sol, Gragas and Taliyah considered truly immobile? Liss and Gragas have dashes where as Sol and Taliyah have ms buffs with a way to also cover terrain.

Tahminatrix 5 votes

I think we are stretching the definition of immobile because I believe the new champ has some sort of speed buff or im stupid or something. (idk she seemed fast during transformation / going invis or whatever.)

SociaI Justice6 votes

in the same world where neeko with her stealth + movespeed buff + 2 hard cc is considered immobile.

DearPear10 votes

[{quoted}](name=SociaI Justice,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=m8EtAyM6,comment-id=0008000000000001,timestamp=2018-11-29T05:27:43.227+0000)

in the same world where neeko with her stealth + movespeed buff + 2 hard cc is considered immobile.

I mean, wtf does hard cc have to do with mobility?

iamthegoatofwar1 votes

Ok in all fairness I do think the hard CC should be taken into account with the stealth+movespeed. Basically save for being able to jump a wall good luck catching her or outrunning her.

DearPear5 votes

{quoted}

Ok in all fairness I do think the hard CC should be taken into account with the stealth+movespeed. Basically save for being able to jump a wall good luck catching her or outrunning her.

TIL anivia is a hypermobile champion because she has CCs.

NyanDiamond3 votes

Except you aren't taking into account the range limitation on those and how easy it is to dodge. Her q isn't doing anything more than 2 jumps on someone competent if they aren't being cc'd. And her ult has the same limitations as someone like morgana, who has comparable dmg in it as well with comparable surviablity while ulting

Catffeine2 votes

TL;DR at the bottom

I'd like to point out several flaws in your argument. First, starting with your scalings. Her Q is not 480 (+90% AP) and it's unfair to claim that it's by default a triple proc, AND that it's unbalanced just because you got cc'd around a low health minion or ally being in a very close proximity of them and got hit by all three procs. Her Q is 80 / 125 / 170 / 215 / 260 (+ 50% AP) on the first hit, and requires that an enemy die for the second proc to kick in, and another enemy to die for the third proc to kick in. The second and third proc deal 40 / 60 / 80 / 100 / 120 (+ 20% AP) each. If you get stunned by Viktor's E, unless you're right next to an ally minion or champion that is going to die from the 260 (+50% AP) proc, you are not going to get hit by all three procs. It is balanced around the fact that there is a significant amount of counterplay behind the second and third proc. The Neeko is rewarded for not only landing the channeled first hit, but also for landing it in a matter that it kills an enemy minion or champion while hitting a second target. She is then rewarded for a second channeled proc in the same location as the first one was. She is then further rewarded for landing it in a matter that it kills two enemy champions or minions, for a third channeled proc, once again in the same location. The enemy has plenty of counterplay around this. First, paying attention to positioning will prevent them from being around a dying ally, similar to spreading so Malphite doesn't ult 5 people but in a much smaller proximity and with no knockup. Only damage. Which means you visibly see the skillshot coming and move away from it as well. If they by chance are around a low health minion or champion, they then have a full second to move out of where the ability originally hit. If somehow the third proc manages to go of, they have yet another second to move away. Unless you are Morgana binded right next to two low health minions, you are not going to get hit by all three. You have a higher chance of dying to the five enemy champions coming at you than the third proc even managing to go off before you die if you get Morgana binded.

Next, every mage and ap assassin besides Zoe and Viktor have damage on every ability. When a champion doesn't have damage on every ability, it's compensated in other areas. Viktor gets an item that lets his Q deal damage a second time and increases the strength of other abilities. Zoe is compensated by being rewarded for dealing insane amounts of burst damage if she lands her E (which is incredibly hard to land against smart enemies), and that damage is even punished by giving her low mobility, which is further compensated by giving her mobility if she's in close range for a long period of time.

Before I go on:

[{quoted}](name=Radiant Wukong,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=m8EtAyM6,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-11-29T00:55:40.905+0000) Don't compare her to Zoe, they're nothing alike besides both being colorful and cheery.

I'm sorry? They're both AP. They're both burst mage assassins. They both have low mobility that is compensated on their W. Just because their playstyles aren't the same doesn't mean they don't have aspects that line up with Riot's balancing philosophy.

Now, to continue, notice this pattern in Zoe specifically. Where she is strong in damage, she is punished in other areas, but given mechanics that a skilled player can pinch themself out of being punished. Let's look at Viktor: He has low mobility that is compensated for by giving him a form of defense and mobility in close range (his W). His shield is the defensive by default, which is great for early game! However, as the game goes on that small shield isn't going to protect him very well from melee assassins. So, he's given an augment that increases his mobility when casting his W. Because his passive and E don't deal damage, he is compensated by having augments that enhance his gameplay and provide bonus damage.

Both Zoe and Viktor's damage are fair and balanced because they don't have damage on all of their abilities, and their damaging abilities are skillshots. The player is rewarded for landing their one or two high damage abilities, with minor damage added to their Ws; Zoe's as a passive, Viktor's on his autoattack. The enemy is able to punish the fact that both of their damaging abilities are skillshots by anticipating where the Viktor or Zoe will aim their skillshot, then take advantage of their long cooldowns.

So let's look at Neeko. She has no damage on her passive, low damage on her W, and moderate damage on her E. Her scalings specifically are: W - 50 / 80 / 110 / 140 / 170 (+ 60% AP) E - 80 / 115 / 150 / 185 / 220 (+ 40% AP) Her W is low damage, just like Zoe and Viktor's. You have to land three auto attacks in order to deal such a small amount of damage. She is a mage, which already has a low attack speed. Albeit high elo mages do autoattack between abilities, 50% of the community is in Silver, meaning most of them aren't going to aa-Q-aa-E-aa to get her passive off. Even then, because of her low attack speed there is a lot of counterplay in bursting her before she even manages to get the third auto off, or punishing her for autoing if she tries to use it to initiate by trading damage. If she wastes her Q to trade back, she loses the pressure of getting her third auto off in lane because now she can't initiate since her Q is on cd.

Her E deals okay damage, but it's not nearly as large as her Q because of the fact that it's a crowd control effect. Also, it's a linear skillshot that moves at a small speed unless it hits something, similar to Zoe's bubble except Zoe's bubble doesn't get a speed bonus or move through units. Instead, Zoe's bubble is compensated by gaining a range increase through terrain. So, Neeko's linear skillshot cc is compensated by increasing in speed as it moves through units. The enemy can dodge it.

Lastly, her ult is a 1.25 second channel that enemies can see unless she is invisible. She is only shielded for .75 seconds, during the channel, about 1/3rd the duration of Viktor's shield (2.5), and for 50 / 80 / 110 (+ 50% AP), which is a tad larger than Viktor's shield, 8% of his maximum mana (+ 15% AP). At level 6, Viktor's shield is roughly 60 using an AP ratio of 100 (20+Blasting Wand+Lost Chapter), Neeko's being 100 with the same basis. She cannot take action during this shield. Neeko then deals 250 / 425 / 650 (+ 130% AP) in the area and stuns all enemies for 1.25 seconds. Analyzing this, her entire ult requires her to be in very close range of the enemies as a squishy mage. Her shield is meant to protect her for half of the channel (.75/1.25), meaning you only have to burst through about 100 shield at level 6 and she's unprotected for the rest of the channel. The enemy can see the Neeko coming at them and poke her down from a range, allowing her to be cc'd or bursted when she gets in close range to land the ult. If she is cc'd while the enemy is also cc'd, she cannot get off her damage after the ult ends. Because the enemy can see her channeling it, in close range, and has a full 1.25 seconds to react, they can throw a Panth W or Viktor E, or any form of cc that lasts longer than 1.25 seconds, and she cannot get her damage off during her ult. She is compensated by being allowed to channel it from stealth, and rewarded by it dealing a large amount of damage and ccing if she successfully lands the ult without dying. Overall, this is a high-risk high-reward ultimate that is very easy to punish but very dangerous if the Neeko is skilled. Similar to Zoe's ultimate E/Q combo.

#TL;DR All in all, Neeko is a very balanced champion. Her damage is only on two abilities, not including her ultimate, and are all skillshots, which is compensated by making those abilities deal a large amount of damage. This is the reward for being skilled at Neeko that is also highly punishable and can be outplayed. Her ultimate puts her in a lot of danger with many ways for enemies to play around it. If the Neeko manages to get into melee range as a squishy without dying, she is permitted to deal a lot of damage and cc the whole team, and if she is not punished by enemy cc, she is able to get off her full combo. Her ult is compensated by being allowed to channel from stealth, and by giving her a mediocre shield. She is a champion that has a lot of counterplay and will require the player to be smart as well as get the hang of the champion to fully utilize her kit. She is in no way unbalanced and shouldn't be asking for nerfs before there's even enough data on her.

#Neeko's Stats http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Neeko

5050BS1 votes

So Neeko does everything Zyra does but better.

Q: More damage W: Defensive and passive does more damage then Lichbane E: Same damage longer Root, faster, wider R: bit lower damage, same aoe, stuns and roots, gives Neeko a MASSIVE shield.

Why play Zyra ever?

Catffeine4 votes

All of Neeko's abilities are mid-range. All of Zyra's abilities are long-range. Zyra gets defensive utility because she has to be in a close proximity to the targets she's damaging. Zyra is the better pick against a team of primarily melee assassins or poke-heavy champions. Neeko is the better pick against a team of tanks/bruisers, sustained damage carries, or burst damage champions.

Basically, Zyra is safe. Neeko is not.

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