Personally I feel that with the amount of poor matchups he has he doesn't need drastic work done other than his visuals, but most everyone I know just think he's the most toxic must-rework-now thing in the entire game.
Now, when I ask if he needs a full gameplay update I mean should his whole kit just be scrapped and replaced? Or can we just give him some touch-ups (Like Xin Zhao)
Teridax6836 votesGameplay updates are not a matter of power or matchups. If a champion is overpowered or underpowered, they need changes to their balance, rather than to how they work. Similarly, champions with too many good or bad matchups may otherwise have perfectly healthy gameplay, and so may not need much more than changes to their early game power (if they even need that much).
Ultimately, the problem with Tryndamere isn't that he has too many good matchups or is overpowered in any way, but that his core gameplay is simply not healthy. The whole notion of gaining random crits at level 1, and then gaining even more power off of those random bonuses with the rest of his kit, means a huge amount of Tryndamere's power isn't based on real interaction, and can completely turn a lane in one or the other's favor in a manner that is impossible to accurately predict or prepare for. Even if Trynd were to be nerfed to sub-40% win rates, this problem would still remain, which is why he needs a gameplay update.
Beyond just Tryndamere's reliance on random crit, a mechanic Riot themselves have denounced as unhealthy for years now, the other main problem with his kit is that it only functions in the least interesting circumstances: Trynd is infamous for being a splitpushing machine, because his high stats and waveclear let him quickly go down a lane, and his ult means he can usually leave safely and even kill lone opponents who go out to fight him. He is also, however, terrible in teamfights, because he's far too easy to kite and lock down, and doesn't really contribute much when he isn't two-shotting squishies. Effectively, even if Trynd's entire crit system were reworked, he'd still be a dysfunctional and mostly uninteractive champion, and so needs an update to his kit that encourages him to fight with his team, and not just isolate himself to top lane the whole time.
Great Ozymandius3 votesHere's an idea for fixing Tryndamere: give his crits a crit-queue -- something like an ammo system that is clearly visible to both sides. Under his health bar, you'd see three dots. Red dots are crits and white dots are not. The dot on the left is his next auto, the dot in middle is the one after that, and the dot on the right is the one after that. After Trndamere autos someone, the leftmost dot disappears, the other two dots move left, and RNG fills in the right-most dot of the crit-queue. Both sides can see which autos will crit well in advance so that both sides can plan accordingly. RNG crits still exist, but they are forecasted.
Now lucky crits won't decide laning phase. Yes, Tryndamere will be able to exploit the information, so that if, for example, he gets three red dots in his queue, he can zone his opponent from cs. But this increase in power can be fixed with other balance changes.
Durzaka2 votesHow would you translate that to 35% crt rate?
Because I would abuse the hell out of that by waiting for a couple crits to be near each other, and then spinning onto the enemy. Nothing really changes in the outcome with your change.
Maybe 1 in 10 early game fights with Tryn are won by random crits. Because 35% is pretty significant, it would be more random if it was 1 or 5% crit. At 35 youre pretty much gonna crit at least 1 every 3 AAs, but good odds to have 2 back to back.
Thryale4 votesbut that's okay, because the enemy can read the crit-queue too, so they'll know when tryn is ready to go in and can play around that by being extra safe and deny tryn his engage.
Hyrum Graff3 votesBecause I would abuse the hell out of that by waiting for a couple crits to be near each other, and then spinning onto the enemy. Nothing really changes in the outcome with your change.
If your opponent can see the upcoming crit streak, too, then they back off until you have to spend those crits on cs. That's massively different from how Trynd currently plays. The fact that you're strategizing about how you could play around the crit indicator shows how different it is, compared to now when it's basically go in and hope for the best.
Hibeki1 votesJust make it so his fury gives %extra total damage instead of crit, since its the same thing.
35% extra auto attack damage means its more reliable
can be played around better
can still be played crit with a better reward, but requires much longer to get going
can promote a non crit playstyle
i like this solution better tbh
A Clever Pun1 votesWell, it is healthier, but we are still left with a champion who splitpushes all day and can 1v1 amazingly but sucks at team fights. And Riot is trying to push the "team play" idea of the game, which Trynd's entire kit goes against.
Personally I'm in favor of a full gameplay update for the guy.
ShiningSky4 votessplit push IS teamplay, i dont get why you dont consider it teamplay, this is a strat that require coordination from your team.
junglerboy163 votesThere's a big difference between organized split pushing and "All I'm good for is running down my lane" split pushing.
Shen is an example of a (relatively) healthy split push champ, in that he has tools to split push but is still a team based champion who's strength is in coordinating with his team to pick fights where they want them. He enables a split pushing strategy, where Trynd instead requires a split push strategy to have any significant impact unless he is absurdly over fed. This basically turns trynd into a PvE champion and forces his team into playing his style, or else conceding that they will be handicapped in every other strategy.
Faceroll Tactics1 votesThat would make him OBLITERATE towers.
Late game he would kill your carry in one shot instead of two.
Anonagon23 votesThe thing that really makes it clear that Tryndamere needs a full overhaul, at least to me, is that he manages to make becoming literally immune to death boring. His ultimate is not exciting to use, nor is it particularly infuriating to play against - all his ult really amounts to is the knowledge that the person who fights Tryndamere must last five seconds longer than he does.
The reason its not exciting is that Tryndamere doesn't do anything besides autoattack people and hope he can kill them or run away before his ult is up. This may sound like sacrilege, but Tryndamere will never be interesting as a champion if his primary source of output on the game is autoattack damage, and that means that he needs a major rework, because his entire kit only exists to facilitate him rightclicking people.
Khristophoros7 votesThe thing that really makes it clear that Tryndamere needs a full overhaul, at least to me, is that he manages to make becoming literally immune to death boring. His ultimate is not exciting to use, nor is it particularly infuriating to play against - all his ult really amounts to is the knowledge that the person who fights Tryndamere must last five seconds longer than he does.
The reason its not exciting is that Tryndamere doesn't do anything besides autoattack people and hope he can kill them or run away before his ult is up. This may sound like sacrilege, but Tryndamere will never be interesting as a champion if his primary source of output on the game is autoattack damage, and that means that he needs a major rework, because his entire kit only exists to facilitate him rightclicking people.
I don't think autoattacking as the primary source of damage is less interesting than anything else. It's just that damage isn't interesting. Tryndamere literally only deals damage and everything else in his kit is there to enable him to find chances to get into range to deal damage or escape and not deal damage. lol
I like melee champs that have 100% uptime on DPS because then you are rewarded for finding every single opportunity to get in. With downtimes on damage output you have periods of time where it's pointless unless you are at a huge advantage.
But Trynd's kit doesn't find opportunities in an interesting way or do anything else besides damage so other than his macro pressure game he's boring.
On the other hand, does it need to be interesting? Maybe Trynd exists for those people who just want to farm up and do alot of damage.
Teridax684 votesI feel that if the game needs a champion specifically for people who just want to farm up and deal lots of damage, Nasus would really be the go-to champion. Tryndamere, by contrast, has this whole theme of being a barbarian warlord that should translate to him tearing up people in teamfights, even if his playstyle is much more boring in practice. I don't think he ever needs to be especially mechanically intense or the like, and having him be a more tactical or strategic champion could in fact be a great approach to take, but the issue is that no part of him right now is especially deep or interesting. I think even simply dealing pure damage can be interesting, but Tryndamere doesn't even achieve that, because in the end he basically just hard-punishes anyone he gets close to, and loses otherwise.
I think it's also worth mentioning that nothing short of a constant, uninterrupted stream of damage has 100% uptime. Technically speaking, autoattacks are basically this very special ability on a shorter-than-average cooldown, and Tryndamere is no exception, even when he does build lots of attack speed. I agree that he shouldn't really be made to pause his damage output for extended periods of time, or be discouraged from going in, but there's still some leeway where his attacks could be made more interesting and spaced-out. For example, a few players suggested making his attacks much slower, but instead having them deal massive damage to multiple enemies at a time. That kind of effect, where Trynd would have no significant downtime to his damage, but would otherwise still offer more opportunities for interaction via telegraphed swings, could already make him significantly more interesting than the right-click steroid machine that he currently is.
It Hertz When IP2 votesThat might be part of the issue; Nasus and Tryndamere do nearly the exact same thing sans ults.
Teridax681 votesI agree, and I feel they're not even the only ones. One of the main sources of top lane-itis is that many of the champions who go there excel at just farming and splitpushing, rather than contributing to teamfights. Part of this may have to do with the fact that fighters in general tend to struggle in teamfights nowadays, due to the amount of CC and mobility everywhere, but beyond that it's all too easy for a top laner to just pick a Hydra item, and then just use their natural steroids, sustain and dueling power to shove a lane as far as possible every time, and thereby grind a match down to a conclusion even if the enemy team responds to them.
I think in an ideal world, Nasus should be able to stand out via his CC and debuffs, whereas Tryndamere should be characterized by his resistance to overwhelming opposition, but right now I completely agree with you that they mostly just end up playing the same way and doing the same thing. I would very much like splitpushing to become a legitimate and healthy strategy, but right now it often comes down to whichever champion's ahead and capable of pushing with the least amount of risk, rather than this much riskier tradeoff between raw pushing power and dueling/escape potential.
KVbqbFsC8e7 votesOf course he does.
PaffWasTaken7 votesIn my opinion, 
should get the same treatment than 
; keep most of his kit while introducing a new mechanic in it along with giving him the visuals he deserves
Kloqdq7 votesThe problem is not power here. The problem is the core champions design. At the very core of what makes Tryndamere, Tryndamere is very muddy and not super clear. He has a fantasy but he doesn't live up to it all that much. He has core aspects of his kit that create hidden power and random spikes of power, both designs that Riot likes to avoid. A lot of what he does needs to be changed overall frankly. Now does that mean everything needs to go? No, I do think he has a lot of neat ideas attached to him. The problem is the current fashion they function as.
Quepha1 votesIt's a big red bar, how is it not obvious that he's going to win an auto attack duel with a big red bar staring you in the face?
SnakDatSmilesBak4 votesIt's a big red bar, how is it not obvious that he's going to win an auto attack duel with a big red bar staring you in the face?
Not for sure. He might win he might lose depending on luck.
Quepha1 votesRNG swings matter far less often than you think in cases like this. Fun fact: This thread contains zero examples of a fight that swung in an unexpected way due to RNG.
And it doesn't really matter because Trynd's kit allows him to simply disengage if the trade does not go his way. His kit is designed to be able to adapt based on what RNG is doing so if you gave him an opportunity to trade that was your mistake.
Kloqdq6 votesYou fight at level 1. He manages to get a random Crit when he bar isn't full.
He won.
He didn't do anything.
He just got a random Crit.
That happens and it isn't something either side can predict. I am not saying it's broken or anything. I am just saying that when your whole kit is created from having invisible, random power spikes and you can't honestly predict what you may do and neither can your opponent, it's not a good design. Legit there is a ton of shit that Tryn does that most people probably aren't aware of because it really doesn't convey it to you all that well.
morris16 votesGotta love Tryndamere.
He's like crit rune, the champion.
Kloqdq5 votesGod it's such a stupid design that I will never understand why someone can stand by it and just go, "Yeah, that's a good design right there."
Quepha1 votesThis is interesting to me. You see, I mained Tryndamere this season and I saw many crits but none that deleted an entire health bar at level 1. Perhaps I was playing him wrong.
Kloqdq6 votesIt's not about deleting the whole health bar. It's about dealing a random amount of damage and suddenly coming out ahead from something neither side is able to completely control or see coming. A single Crit is a sudden burst of damage and early game health amounts matter A LOT more. Especially in top lane.
I know you are a Tryndamere main but come on you got to see the problem with his core design. This is just one of many issues with the champion along with his Ultimate, and hidden bursts of power like increased Crit, AD, AD lowering, etc.
Quepha1 votesI know you are a Tryndamere main but come on you got to see the problem with his core design. This is just one of many issues with the champion along with his Ultimate, and hidden bursts of power like increased Crit, AD, AD lowering, etc.
I really don't. Every lane I won, I would think "wow that guy made an obvious mistake to give me this trade," multiple times as I never won lane with a single good trade, but several followed by an all-in where I outperformed my opponent. As I would split push all I saw was an enemy team failing to respond appropriately to my pressure, and setting up bad collapses with clear openings. Everything felt incredibly procedural and expected. I had never felt more certain of my actions and their expected results in all the years I have played League.
Most importantly, I know I could do the same thing on any other split pusher if I chose to learn them: Jax, Kled, Fiora, Yasuo, Irelia... they all possess similar tools to let me do the exact same thing: Take good trades in lane, farm up, and pressure the map while avoiding collapses. Crit isn't a crutch any more than Empower or Vitals are.
Kloqdq6 votesI am only pointing out 1 problem with Tryndamere. Crit is just one of many issues with Tryndamere.
Also who is saying that split pushers are healthy to begin with? They are pretty painful because their designs are based on winning a lane and being able to win every interaction with a single person. I would argue all those champions follow similar issues amongst one another.
Also comparing Tryndamere's random Crit, which has no true tell or condition or way to stop/avoid it. I can see Yasuo's Nado and the Q is thin and dodgable. Vitals shows me where Fiora wants to hit. I know when Kled want to engage on me. Jax has his 3 hits and Q glowing. Irelia's true damage has a clear tell.
How do I know when Tryndamere is going to Crit me? I don't. I have no way of knowing if this will be a crit or not because it's just a chance too. That is why Crit is not good or healthy when you compare it to the others.
Also Kled is a god teamfighter. I would rather fight my enemy, not their towers with Kled. Not saying he doesn't do well as a split pusher but he is better suited on getting on top of enemies.
Really Tryndamere has a lot of problems, and a lot of people can agree with me there. It isn't just his crit, or his ult, or his other passives and actives. It's the way the champion is designed and how he functions. I already argued with a Kayle main about their champion being in a similar spot. I don't need to try and tell a Tryndamere main why their champion needs to receive a VGU.
Quepha1 votesAlso who is saying that split pushers are healthy to begin with?
I am, because it is an obvious and essential basic strategy for a game like this. If you have multiple members of a team then obviously it should be possible for them to do something besides all stand next to each other for a teamfight. If you deny that this should be an option then why are you playing a multiplayer game?
Kloqdq2 votesI am saying in it's current form, split pushers aren't healthy. The concept and strategy of split pushing isn't bad. But the champions themselves are the problem here. Tryndamere, Irelia, Jax, Fiora, etc all have similar issues that takes away from anything interesting. You are right, there are other ways to win a game. The way most spilt pushers are winning though just isn't healthy.
Most can just brute force people off the tower and if they do see more people show up, they can normally back off with their teammates normally gaining an advantage. Basically just a win-win with very little cost for the split-pusher, at worst dying. Fiora can normally always win a 1v1. Sometimes a 2v1. If they are good, they will normally just auto-win the push because they know how to get you off the tower and than just push it in. Jax is a bundle of stats that allows him to do stupid shit. Etc, etc.
Split-pushing is not okay because the champions that do split pushing are not okay.
Clearly though, I am not going to convince you. I am not going to keep wasting my time on this any more than I have already. Too many wasted hours on discussions that lead to nothing when I talk to a niche champion main already. Have a nice day.
Quepha1 votesThey win 1v1s because they are the best at 1v1s If they stop being the best at 1v1s then the second best champions at 1v1s will become the best and they will do the exact same thing.
Teridax682 votesI think the problem here has more to do with the fact that the best duelists often happen to be the best splitpushers, and when that happens it always takes more resources to stop them from splitpushing than it does for them to splitpush in the first place, which isn't healthy. Tryndamere's whole kit essentially means that he can mow down wave after wave and quickly take down towers, but if you want to go fight him you'll need to send more than just one player, as he will otherwise be practically guaranteed to kill a lone opponent on equal gold, or at least escape from them.
If champions who are the best at pushing were also the weakest in 1v1s, and vice versa, then splitpushing would be a legitimately risky strategy, as you could send a duelist to kill the splitpusher, and duelists would themselves be sub-par at pushing, so there would always be a tradeoff. As it stands, though, champions like Tryndamere, who are both top-tier pushers and excellent duelists, can splitpush at very little risk, and have essentially no incentive to participate in teamfights, which leads to the kind of boring, isolationist playstyle that champion is now infamous for.
Teridax681 votesI mean, LeBlanc can splitpush if she wants now because she's turned into a waveclearing kite mage, but Kassadin is generally better off looking for targets to pick off. He's an anti-splitpusher more than a splitpusher himself, though in an environment where splitpushers were either top-tier duelists or top-tier pushers, but not both, he could probably have a better time splitpushing. If you think every duelist should splitpush, then it's likely your idea of splitpushing doesn't quite correspond to what splitpushing actually is in practice.
SnakDatSmilesBak6 votesRNG swings matter far less often than you think in cases like this. Fun fact: This thread contains zero examples of a fight that swung in an unexpected way due to RNG.
And it doesn't really matter because Trynd's kit allows him to simply disengage if the trade does not go his way. His kit is designed to be able to adapt based on what RNG is doing so if you gave him an opportunity to trade that was your mistake.
I'm talking about his level 2 cheese. You know, the one that depends on him getting a crit or two after spinning onto you?
6Sfool5 votesI think any champ whose entire purpose is to splitpush rapidly all game and infuriate everyone needs a rework. Tryndamere tops the list.
Quepha3 votesTryndamere players would just perform the same strategy on the next-best-splitpusher.
Splitpushing works because most players are obsessed with brainless teamfighting and can't handle thinking of any actual macro strategy.
6Sfool2 votesThere's a difference between splitpushing as a macro strategy and taking 2 towers with 1 minion wave. Yeah most players don't know that teamfighting serves a purpose and shouldn't be attempted if you don't need to, but honestly, teamfights are fun. Being completely incapable of teamfighting because you have 2 players babysitting Trynd is a waste of everyone's time.
And in terms of splitpushing champs, the only ones I can think of that match Trynd's level of annoying are Udyr, Yorick, and Singed. And All 3 of those champs aren't quite as good as him.
Sasogwa4 votesMeh. Him being immune to death might be slightly annoying but it's nowhere near as disgusting as a ranged toplaner that destroys you by default while you can't do anything. I find tryndamere extremely healthy compared to the likes of kennen, Gnar, jayce for instance. At least you can farm against him and he needs to auto to keep his fury bar, Meaning you can pretty much wait and lasthit under tower if he has an advantage.
Salson4 votesMore like full VGU.
He's rather basic, for instance people will advise you to 'just kite him in teamfights'. But a Plat Tryn should be unkiteable for a Gold team. Nope, he simply splitpushes better than a Gold Tryn.
Look at Yasuo, Riven and Fiora. That is what people think when they way 'Tryn needs a rework'.
CasterGilgamesh3 votesironically enough should of had a Sion level rework before even sion IMO
SSShutTheDuckUp2 votesA few months ago I created a similar discussion and Meddler stated that Trynda is somewhere in their full VGU. I agree with him, however it unknown when will this happen
Kyunsei2 votesHis visuals are okay-ish, gameplay wise he's quite old. Could need a VGU, but personally I doubt it'll happen before long.
So either some small work (like Xin, Shyv, Kindred, Malphite, etc...) or nothing till' end of time.
TotalJerk2 votesAs long as he has a strong combination of sustain, mobility, pushing, and dueling he will always be Tryndamere. There are a bunch of other champions that also capable of doing what Tryndamere does.
Beacon 0F Light2 votesI think he needs a Sion-level rework, and that he should've been the next in line. His abilities are extremely outdated, and his gameplay is ridiculously binary and frustrating. He has built-in crit mechanics (we all know how much people love Yasuo), has the least interesting or skill-based invuln ult in the game, and I can't think of a single interesting thing you can do with him that would put his skill ceiling any higher than an inch above the ground. I can't personally comprehend how anybody can say he's okay in this day and age.
ShiningSky1 votesi'm a tryndamere mains on euw servor, i have at least 2000 + game on this champion at low diamond level. i find it funny that people complains about 5 sec of "i cannot die" when there is much more game-changing ultimate around. in my opinion tryndamere is a champion designed to be a beast in 1v1 situation, most of the time 2 people will be needed to stop me. but it is not always the case and there is a lot of champions that can stop tryndamere split push , orianna, kennen, jax, fiora, basically any champions with hard slow / any cc. I think he have clear weakness and strength, and guys who say the rng decide if the lane is won or not, honestly you have no idea what you are talking about .
Fear the Kayn1 votesIf they rework him, I still want him to be that champion that if you fight him under certain circumstances (Currently, when he has ult up) you will lose 100% of the time.
O Fallen Scholar1 votesThe fact that he can't team fight already screams that he needs some changes to his kit. Obviously.
FCJAAAAGOOOO1 votesChastise me if you will, but I think Tryndamere's is the only completely healthy champion in the entire game. Everyone else has boring and degenerate options but whatever decision a Tryndamere makes is all-in. This doesn't apply to early laning phase but keep in mind that he's a generally bad laner with easy counterpick items regardless, even moreso now with the buff to FH. Every decision he makes is very different and shapes how the rest of the game plays out thanks to just how important his cooldowns and positioning are as opposed to most other champions.
