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Why are crit and attack speed so linked together?

Pierce The Veal··2 votes·2,179 views

Riot has made it such that crit and attack speed are almost always on the same item. The only exceptions to this are devourer, if you're an ok hit jungler, botrk, situationally huilt vs tanks, nashors, you like ap and on hits, and guinsoos, you like the ap and the ad.

There is no pure attack speed item. There is no attack speed/ad item that you can buy without beng loaded with stats and passives you don't want/need. And additionally, if you only want crit and ad, there is also nothing to buy except infinity edge or essence reaver if you have mana.

Statikk shiv, Rapid Firecannon, Phantom Dancer, Trinity Force, Runaan's Hurricane. Do we really need 5 different crit/attack speed items while if bruisers want attack speed they're stuck with botrk, and if assassins want crit they're stuck with IE and essence reaver (which requires you to auto attack and build full crit to be useful).

If any of you are wonderjng why tanks are the top champions in this meta, it's not only because last whisper and botrk (look vayne's compensation nerf which affected every championthat builds it) was nerfed, but rather because the bruisers, who dealt with tanks, had all their damage options nerfed or removed (or changed to be an adc item in the case of triforce).

76 Comments

Ralanr5 votes

Because auto attacks are the most reliable way to get a crit, thus the more attacks you can dish out in a short period of time, the more crits you'll have.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

Because auto attacks are the most reliable way to get a crit, thus the more attacks you can dish out in a short period of time, the more crits you'll have.

And since when was it a good option to put those two on the same item five different times?

What if I didn't want crit?

Ralanr2 votes

Then don't buy it for the crit. Having crit isn't going to hinder you.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

Then don't buy it for the crit. Having crit isn't going to hinder you.

Having crit means you're spending money on something that doesn't benefit you nearly as much as several other stats.

Ralanr1 votes

Not when nothing else offers the stat you want.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

Not when nothing else offers the stat you want.

That's the problem we're trying to solve, isn't it?

Ralanr1 votes

Well, aside from item 3153 for attack speed we have item 3091 and item 3124 (though rageblade gives it based around the passive).

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

Well, aside from item 3153 for attack speed we have item 3091 and item 3124 (though rageblade gives it based around the passive).

Forgot wits end existed.

Rageblade specialized for hybrids.

And botrk is also specialized on killing tanks with on hits.

Nothing that benefits champions who want to land autos between casts, or people who just plain out want more AD.

I guess a better question would be why do we have to pick between a crit/as item and an as/on hit item?

Ralanr1 votes

Which champion are you complaining about anyway? It might be easier to understand then. Also item 3142.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

Which champion are you complaining about anyway? It might be easier to understand then. Also item 3142.

Hecarim.

All ad casters ever.

Nocturne.

Anybody who doesn't scale with AP and likes AD and attack speed without wanting crit.

Ralanr2 votes

item 3071 and other CDR items with mana are usually what AD casters want. Also item 3006.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

item 3071 and other CDR items with mana are usually what AD casters want. Also item 3006.

True. But attack speed sure helps weave autoattacks into the fight.

Berzerker's is actually really nice but I find it hard to justify buying when boots of lucidity, boots of swiftness, and ninja tabu exist.

Ralanr2 votes

Well what's more important? CDR, Armor, or attack speed? Depends on the game imo.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

Well what's more important? CDR, Armor, or attack speed? Depends on the game imo.

Exactly!

But here's the deal, it's almost impossible to ever choose attack speed because there's no attack speed item that suits the champion archetypes I mentioned before.

Ralanr2 votes

Well when I played Olaf I didn't need many attack speed items. Just one or two was enough.

Really I don't think you'll need multiple attack speed items, one or two would be fine. Hitting someone 1000 times with a noodle is still hitting them with a noodle.

windwolf7771 votes

{quoted}

Well when I played Olaf I didn't need many attack speed items. Just one or two was enough.

Really I don't think you'll need multiple attack speed items, one or two would be fine. Hitting someone 1000 times with a noodle is still hitting them with a noodle.

However, said noodle still applies onhit effects. Meaning I would love to be a noodle Warwick Vayne MasterYi

AyRe CoNteMpT2 votes

riot wants all items to be the exact same so noobs dont have to use their brain and feel like the game is hard

PS: fighters are the reigning champions this meta. same last meta and same the meta before.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

[{quoted}](name=AyRe CoNteMpT,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yxa2BRvB,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-12-23T21:05:50.711+0000)

riot wants all items to be the exact same so noobs dont have to use their brain and feel like the game is hard

PS: fighters are the reigning champions this meta. same last meta and same the meta before.

Pffft. How many fighters are reigning? Mundo? Pfffft. The champs who reign are tanks and champions who can build full tank while still dealings tons of damage.

AyRe CoNteMpT3 votes

champions who can build very tanky while dealing tons of damage or being tanky while building tons of damage aka fighters: garen, darius, renekton, shyvana, volibear etc etc

Pierce The Veal1 votes

[{quoted}](name=AyRe CoNteMpT,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yxa2BRvB,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-23T21:29:12.895+0000)

champions who can build very tanky while dealing tons of damage or being tanky while building tons of damage aka fighters: garen, darius, renekton, shyvana, volibear etc etc

Fighters are champions who build 1-2 damage items and then tanky.

Ralanr1 votes

Gangplank item 3508 item 3031 item 3078 item 3065

I'm tanky.

Obviously you could build him to be more tanky. That's the power of fighter champions, they are versatile.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

Gangplank item 3508 item 3031 item 3078 item 3065

I'm tanky.

Obviously you could build him to be more tanky. That's the power of fighter champions, they are versatile.

Many people didn't consider him to be a tanky champion. Plus, that's 50% cdr you're running there :P

Ralanr1 votes

I don't get item 3065 for CDR, I get it so I heal better from his W.

Thing is, Gangplank is a fighter champion and thus by your definition he builds tanky after one or two damage items.

Juggernauts do not speak for all fighters.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

I don't get item 3065 for CDR, I get it so I heal better from his W.

Thing is, Gangplank is a fighter champion and thus by your definition he builds tanky after one or two damage items.

Juggernauts do not speak for all fighters.

Juggernauts tend to be champions that build purely tank for the most part.

Ralanr1 votes

Yeah, but they don't speak for all fighters. Your definition of fighter didn't work.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, but they don't speak for all fighters. Your definition of fighter didn't work.

Trying to identify a fighter with 4 pure damage items is the same as trying to identify an assassin with 4 pure tank items. It just doesn't work, and that's what you're trying to do.

There are a few champions that don't play differently regardless of how they build, but they are by far in the minority. A fighter with 4 damage items becomes an assassin or a carry, and an assassin with 4 tank items becomes a fighter.

Fighters specialize in dueling and long skirmishes.

Carries specialize in high dps.

Assasskns specialize in burst.

Quintastic1 votes

{quoted}

Fighters are champions who build 1-2 damage items and then tanky.

Fighters are just melee champions that can either build tanky or damage. Hence why you can have full assassin build Riven's and Wukongs that are still "Fighters" because they aren't as pure squish as regular Assassins.

Bruisers are the ones that build 1-2 attack items and the rest tanky.

Juggernauts are the same thing as Bruisers except they have the option to go full Tank and still deal tons of damage because they have virtually no mobility.

And Tanks are the ones that might build a Rod of Ages, A Support Item or something like Hydra so long as they build nothing but HP and Tanks items and control the board with all their CC.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kraken B Trippin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yxa2BRvB,comment-id=00000000000000000001,timestamp=2015-12-23T22:02:38.326+0000)

Fighters are just melee champions that can either build tanky or damage. Hence why you can have full assassin build Riven's and Wukongs that are still "Fighters" because they aren't as pure squish as regular Assassins.

Bruisers are the ones that build 1-2 attack items and the rest tanky.

Juggernauts are the same thing as Bruisers except they have the option to go full Tank and still deal tons of damage because they have virtually no mobility.

And Tanks are the ones that might build a Rod of Ages, A Support Item or something like Hydra so long as they build nothing but HP and Tanks items and control the board with all their CC.

It's really hard to see the distinction between a tank and a juggernaut besides the cc.

True, a fighter can build more damage, but then that champion isn't really behaving like a fighter, right?

Just like how a marksman building tank items wouldn't behave like a marksman.

Quintastic2 votes

{quoted}

It's really hard to see the distinction between a tank and a juggernaut besides the cc.

True, a fighter can build more damage, but then that champion isn't really behaving like a fighter, right?

Just like how a marksman building tank items wouldn't behave like a marksman.

When it comes to Tank/Juggernaut dichotomy:

Take people like Mordekaiser, Garen and Illaoi for example. Sure, Garen has a slight silence on Q and Illaoi has a possibility of affecting slow with a finished E execution. But otherwise they are pure front line damage/sieging champions that don't really have escapes or ways to get themselves out of danger beyond just killing the enemy before they kill you.

A tank isn't there for his damage output like a Darius or a Mundo. They are there to close the gap with the enemy, CC them to death and otherwise soak damage until someone ELSE does the dirty work.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kraken B Trippin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yxa2BRvB,comment-id=0000000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2015-12-23T22:31:26.942+0000)

When it comes to Tank/Juggernaut dichotomy:

Take people like Mordekaiser, Garen and Illaoi for example. Sure, Garen has a slight silence on Q and Illaoi has a possibility of affecting slow with a finished E execution. But otherwise they are pure front line damage/sieging champions that don't really have escapes or ways to get themselves out of danger beyond just killing the enemy before they kill you.

A tank isn't there for his damage output like a Darius or a Mundo. They are there to close the gap with the enemy, CC them to death and otherwise soak damage until someone ELSE does the dirty work.

So what does that make the champions in between? Juggertanks? Tankernauts?

Ralanr1 votes

I've been calling most fighter/tank champions juggernauts. I think Riot is trying to redo the class system.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

I've been calling most fighter/tank champions juggernauts. I think Riot is trying to redo the class system.

Yeah I think that might be what they're doing. They want to make it so that the way each champion builds is more linear. Build AD if you like AD, even if you need defense. And so on and so forth.

Kyrrion1 votes

{quoted}

I've been calling most fighter/tank champions juggernauts. I think Riot is trying to redo the class system.

Actually no, juggernauts are a "sub-class" of fighters. Specifically low mobility high damage while still being tanky fighters.

Granted the idea behind a fighter is to do damage while being tanky anyway, juggernauts just take it to the extreme. Which is why they became problematic.

Jalkan2 votes

It's actually because of item 3086 . They just wanted these items to build out of Zeal.

Pierce The Veal2 votes

{quoted}

It's actually because of item 3086 . They just wanted these items to build out of Zeal.

Yeah, but who does that benefit? Mages?

Assassins?

Fighters?

My a**?

No it benefits adcs lol.

Old Man Teeto1 votes

item 3006 item 3153 item 3142

If you want attack speed, you typically don't mind it having crit.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

item 3006 item 3153 item 3142

If you want attack speed, you typically don't mind it having crit.

I just don't understand why, however. Why can't it have cdr, AD, or anything that isn't on hit? Attack speed can also be used to speed up one's combo, and crit, though pretty nice on a lot of champions, usually means investment into a stat that doesn't benefit the player nearly as much as others. Like on kha'zix, I used to like occasionally getting zephyr so that I could aa q aa r and rinse and repeat all back to back without having to wait much. Kha'zix doesn't like crit, and he doesn't want too much attack speed. A little bit is always nice, however.

Nocturne for example, doesn't really always want to stack crit. Crit doesn't help destroy turrets. It also doesn't help people with good AD scalings. Just because we don't mind it doesn't mean we should always have to be pigeonholed into getting some adc item.

Old Man Teeto1 votes

Khazix doesn't want attack speed.

Nocturne has a ton of options, all three I listed are pretty strong on him.

Additionally, Black Cleaver and the bruiser/tank items are strong on Nocturne.

I run a 29% attack speed page for Nocturne jungle, that with a single attack speed item is plenty.

DeathBurst1 votes

It's wrong that AD-caster want AS without Crit. Sure, they don't want Crit, but they don't want AS either, because the time they use to cast spells is usually long enough that they have their auto-attack back even without any bonus AS.

Since ADC obviously like AS+Crit together, that leaves the small fraction of non-carries auto-attack reliant champions. Shyvana, Olaf, Warwick, Trundle? Note they all have an aa-reset or a spell they can easily weave between 2 aa even if they are not considered casters, so you still don't need AS for your first 2 or 3 aa.

You have item 3091 item 3153 item 3006 item 1415 and if you are not a carry, you should probably take a bit of defense after that. You also have item 3142 with the active. The on-hits are good for auto-attack reliant champions. If you don't want them because you are a caster and can't use on-hits, then you don't want AS either, see my first point. If you are a caster, you just want AD, period. No Crit, but no AS either. And for that you have Youmuu, Ravenous, and all the lifesteal items, especially Death's Dance (for lifesteal on skills), but also Mercurial and Bloodthirster. Or Cleaver and Mallet for more tankyness.

Finally, Triforce and/or Phantom Dancer are still very attractive on good duelists (Warwick, Trundle) even despite the semi-wasted Crit, because their passives work well with what a duelist wants to do.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

It's wrong that AD-caster want AS without Crit. Sure, they don't want Crit, but they don't want AS either, because the time they use to cast spells is usually long enough that they have their auto-attack back even without any bonus AS.

Since ADC obviously like AS+Crit together, that leaves the small fraction of non-carries auto-attack reliant champions. Shyvana, Olaf, Warwick, Trundle? Note they all have an aa-reset or a spell they can easily weave between 2 aa even if they are not considered casters, so you still don't need AS for your first 2 or 3 aa.

You have item 3091 item 3153 item 3006 item 1415 and if you are not a carry, you should probably take a bit of defense after that. You also have item 3142 with the active. The on-hits are good for auto-attack reliant champions. If you don't want them because you are a caster and can't use on-hits, then you don't want AS either, see my first point. If you are a caster, you just want AD, period. No Crit, but no AS either. And for that you have Youmuu, Ravenous, and all the lifesteal items, especially Death's Dance (for lifesteal on skills), but also Mercurial and Bloodthirster. Or Cleaver and Mallet for more tankyness.

Finally, Triforce and/or Phantom Dancer are still very attractive on good duelists (Warwick, Trundle) even despite the semi-wasted Crit, because their passives work well with what a duelist wants to do.

Do you think exclaiming to me that ad casters don't want atrack speed is going is going to make your point? I think you don't appreciate sped up animations. Being able to output more autos in between casts is something that ad casters do like. Notice that my examples didn't include champions like talon, who has long enough cooldown that he doesn't really stick around to use autos.

It's just crazy that if you like attack speed then you're not allowed to get much AD at the same time. The only exception being an active on Youmuu's. Shyvana also doesn't mind not having on hits. She DOES have good attack damage scaling, and would really like something wtih heavy AD and Attack speed. Same with Nocturne.

I don't understand why we can't be given the option. I'm sure ADCs would appreciate it too if they don't want to build pure crit.

DeathBurst1 votes

{quoted}

Do you think exclaiming to me that ad casters don't want atrack speed is going is going to make your point?

Well, yes, I thought so. I mean, it does answer to the question in your thread: why AS and AD are not linked together? Because AS is linked with other useful things for champs who want AS (Crit or on-hits) and AD is on items by themselves, for champs who just want AD for their scalings. I mean, if you auto-attack often enough to want more AS a BtrK passive is not wasted, or a Wit's End's one. AD is not linked with Crit either, AD isn't linked with any thing at all. AD is a core stat that you can't find with any other offensive stat.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

Well, yes, I thought so. I mean, it does answer to the question in your thread: why AS and AD are not linked together? Because AS is linked with other useful things for champs who want AS (Crit or on-hits) and AD is on items by themselves, for champs who just want AD for their scalings. I mean, if you auto-attack often enough to want more AS a BtrK passive is not wasted, or a Wit's End's one. AD is not linked with Crit either, AD isn't linked with any thing at all. AD is a core stat that you can't find with any other offensive stat.

Attack speed speeds up your auto attack animation.

AD casters like to finish their combos quickly, hence their autos being faster does help them. It's just they're not going to be standing around trying to apply on hits or crit.

But my point isn't limited only to AD casters, the fact that you can combine basically any two stats on an item EXCEPT for AD + attack speed without being pigeonholed into having unneeded stats or passives is sort of ridiculous. The only other stat combinationthat is more exclusive than AD+attack speed is AD+armor, which hasn't existed since wriggle's and atma's impaler.

DeathBurst1 votes

AD+Crit is quite rare too...

But more to the point, I think you over-estimate the impact of a few %AS on your auto-attack animation speed-up. I may be wrong, I'm no expert. But I'd be curious to measure the time to execute a full combo with and without AS on a typical AD caster, get objective data. I'm rather convinced that we're talking something relatively meaningless, but I won't bother making the measurement myself, and without objective data I have nothing else constructive to add to this discussion, only opinions.

Sorry ^^'

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

AD+Crit is quite rare too...

But more to the point, I think you over-estimate the impact of a few %AS on your auto-attack animation speed-up. I may be wrong, I'm no expert. But I'd be curious to measure the time to execute a full combo with and without AS on a typical AD caster, get objective data. I'm rather convinced that we're talking something relatively meaningless, but I won't bother making the measurement myself, and without objective data I have nothing else constructive to add to this discussion, only opinions.

Sorry ^^'

No need to apologize. I too would have assumed attack speed was horrible if I had been new to the role. And the truth is too much is wasted. Normal champs have around base 0.67 attacks per second. This means 30% attack speed will increase that by 0.2 attacks per second or so. That means you shave off 0.2 seconds off your burst per auto attack. This could mean an extra auto attack for a zed with deathmark up, or it could mean you can auto attack, q, and auto attack immediately again without pause as kha'zix. The for example, this isn't really useful for riven, but for champions who don't have many animation cancels, some attack speed has a great effect. Too much is potentially wasted, but a little is great.

DeathBurst1 votes

I believe animation speed-up doesn't work that way.

If you have 0.67 attack/s (or 1.5 s/attack), you can have an animation in 0.5 s (random number) and 1 s where you stand idle (or cast spell) to add up to 1.5 s before beginning your next animation.

For most champ, 1% attack-speed is 1% animation speed-up, so 30% attack-speed in my previous example get you to 0.87 att/s (+0.2 att/s) or 1.14 s/att (-0.36 s), but your animation get from 0.5 s to 0.38 s (-0.12 s).

Compare the 0.12 s to the 0.36. And if your base auto-attack animation is shorter than 0.5 s, you gain even less.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

I believe animation speed-up doesn't work that way.

If you have 0.67 attack/s (or 1.5 s/attack), you can have an animation in 0.5 s (random number) and 1 s where you stand idle (or cast spell) to add up to 1.5 s before beginning your next animation.

For most champ, 1% attack-speed is 1% animation speed-up, so 30% attack-speed in my previous example get you to 0.87 att/s (+0.2 att/s) or 1.14 s/att (-0.36 s), but your animation get from 0.5 s to 0.38 s (-0.12 s).

Compare the 0.12 s to the 0.36. And if your base auto-attack animation is shorter than 0.5 s, you gain even less.

0.12 seconds makes a big difference in a burst combo. It marks the difference between getting that one more auto off. In fact, having to wait 0.12 more seconds for your next auto can get you killed, making it not even worth using your next autos in some cases.

Irelia Bot1 votes

Would rather have 15 on hit magic damage for all abilities and auto attacks instead of 20% crit chance on trinity.

But for some reason riot decided it was a marksmen item even though a lot of fighters have historically bought it.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yxa2BRvB,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2015-12-27T01:11:37.712+0000)

Would rather have 15 on hit magic damage for all abilities and auto attacks instead of 20% crit chance on trinity.

But for some reason riot decided it was a marksmen item even though a lot of fighters have historically bought it.

Maybe no 15 on hit magic damage, but definitely not crit chance. It needs its old attack speed, not 10% more crit chance.

Irelia Bot1 votes

{quoted}

Maybe no 15 on hit magic damage, but definitely not crit chance. It needs its old attack speed, not 10% more crit chance.

In a way I am suggesting recurve bow in place of zeal. 30% attack speed and 15 on hit magic damage from all damage done outside of damage over time.

It would be good for on hit builds and not be good for crits builds.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yxa2BRvB,comment-id=000e00000000,timestamp=2015-12-27T01:36:22.938+0000)

In a way I am suggesting recurve bow in place of zeal. 30% attack speed and 15 on hit magic damage from all damage done outside of damage over time.

It would be good for on hit builds and not be good for crits builds.

I think it should deal a small percentage of your base AD as on hit damage instead. That would synergize with trinity force even more. 15% of base AD? 20%? That might be really nice actually.

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