-150g on Sunfire still isn't enough

The Ecdysiast··7 votes·4,756 views

Around a year ago, I made a thread pointing out the cost disparity between Black Cleaver and Sunfire Cape: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/5FsJfYi6-sunfire-cape-costs-more-than-black-cleaver And neither item has received changes since then, until this cost change to Sunfire. So to reiterate, now the cost disparity between Black Cleaver and Sunfire was only reduced to at minimum 265g and at maximum 1245g. (when factoring in their passives) And Trinity is similarly much more gold efficient than Sunfire.

One of the issues is that they keep trying to push a gold inefficient item with uncontrollable AoE damage onto the class with both the weakest ability to farm and the weakest kill pressure. That means they have the hardest time farming outside of tower because they can be killed, and they have the hardest time farming under tower if their item is constantly damaging the minions. And the reward when they manage to do so is a worse item than anything the opponent (if they're not also a tank) can buy first.

With the old cost of Sunfire, as I said in the linked post, 20% CDR almost exactly covers the gold disparity from base stats. But now I'm thinking 350 mana (which is around the same) would work far better.

Aside from that, it simply doesn't have the stats to compare to the starting items of any other class. Trinity has everything a fighter with moderate reliance on abilities needs. Cleaver has everything a fighter with low mana costs needs. Luden's/Archangel's/GLP have the CDR and mana that mages need, Draktharr and Youmuu's have the lethality and CDR assassins need, Stormrazor (or soon to return to the BF>Zeal trend) has the AS and bonus damage marksmen need, junglers have all the stats they need if they properly farm their buffs, and supports have wards as well as gold supplements making up for their inability to farm.

But Sunfire doesn't have the mana that the class needs, which is unreasonable since most top lane tanks have the highest basic ability mana costs of any champions. Especially considering their abilities help very little in a 1v1, this shouldn't be the case. And I'd really like an explanation from anyone who thinks they know more about it that can tell me why it hasn't received what seems like an obvious fix if they actually wanted to make it a first-buy.

30 Comments

Critmaster Garen2 votes

it could be cool to make the sunfire aura scale with base ad, so fighters like Garen Darius Yorick etc. could scale it up to deal some noticable damage later on in the game.

so instead of scaling it up to 43 damage/second, they could get it up to ~70 or something like that.

i know its mainly regarded as a waveclear item for tanks, but that doesnt really have to change during the early game even with this in mind.

Ralanr3 votes

Wouldn’t that make it too strong late game? Turning these characters into bigger splitpush monsters?

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Wouldn’t that make it too strong late game? Turning these characters into bigger splitpush monsters?

why exactly would it make it too strong? it would scale better, yes. but that doesnt automatically mean it would be too strong, especially compared to already existing options.

juggers need honestly more sustained damage options to fight squishies like marksmen or skirmishers. theyve been over specialized into tank killers.

an increased flat damage on sunfire hits squishies harder than tanks.

Ralanr1 votes

I mean in that it would push waves much harder making them split much easier.

I don’t think juggernauts need more sustain damage so much as they need better sticking power.

Moody P2 votes

most juggernauts have good sticking power until big 5v5s start happening. they definitely need more dps-oriented since the last couple of them have turned into immobile assassins with how quick they can drop someone

Ralanr1 votes

So wait, what’s the weakness supposed to be then if they get good sticking power and more DPS?

Moody P1 votes

i didn't say they need more sticking power, they're intended to be kitable champions. most juggernauts should be less about one-comboing you or dying given how much effort it usually takes to get people in your range, they should certainly have the means to fight for an extended period of time

Ralanr1 votes

But you did say they have good sticking power before 5v5s. So if they have good DPS as well, then what’s the weakness to them exactly? Because then you got someone you can’t fight in lane or in splitpush.

Moody P1 votes

making them dps would be a lot more tolerable than aatrox or urgot hitting the delete button on you because you walked a little too close, I think. in fact, now that I think about it, dps focus would probably be a net nerf because then they'd take longer to finish someone off when they're already easy to escape unless you're equally or more immobile than they are.

still kiteable and immobile, majority of juggernauts are very easy to disengage from unless you misplay, vulnerable to poke -- making them better duelists doesn't seem unfair based on these basically universal weaknesses, not including anything else they'd have like delayed healing, skillshot-based regen, etc.

there's no complaints that a diver can be DPS focused when they're far more mobile, sometimes absurdly so, and therefore stick much better -- while still being capable of deleting squishy enemies that they gapclose onto. Why would it be unfair for Juggernauts?

Ralanr1 votes

“Because divers blow up easier”

Though we all know that isn’t true.

Moody P1 votes

that hasn't been true in a very long time, most divers have much better defensive tools than juggernauts and negligible defense base stat differences (usually in the ballpark of ~10 armor ~100 HP differences at level 18), in addition to divers being able to buy Sterak's with no damage penalty now that the item gives bonus AD and not total

divers having mobility (for dodging) and usually more CC makes them indirectly more durable as well

The Ecdysiast6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yslaxkoF,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-01-24T16:53:01.079+0000)

it could be cool to make the sunfire aura scale with base ad, so fighters like Garen Darius Yorick etc. could scale it up to deal some noticable damage later on in the game.

so instead of scaling it up to 43 damage/second, they could get it up to ~70 or something like that.

i know its mainly regarded as a waveclear item for tanks, but that doesnt really have to change during the early game even with this in mind.

That... no, that wouldn't be cool. It's not supposed to help the juggernauts who abuse tank items with their damage heavy kits. If anything should scale defense so that tanks who build as intended are rewarded, not so champs with broken base stats can abuse it on top of their abuse of Spellblade.

Critmaster Garen3 votes

{quoted}

That... no, that wouldn't be cool. It's not supposed to help the juggernauts who abuse tank items with their damage heavy kits. If anything should scale defense so that tanks who build as intended are rewarded, not so champs with broken base stats can abuse it on top of their abuse of Spellblade.

how do juggernauts "abuse" tank items?

theyre supposed to carry on almost the same item builds, with the exception of one or two ad/health items like cleaver, titanic or steraks.

sunfire cape had historically been an item that had been bought both by tanks and juggers. garen was one of the most infamous champions who used to buy sunfire cape, before they changed it from flat damage to scaling, and dead mans was introduced for juggers.

its not like fighters care that tanks pick up dead mans from time to time. our items just overlap to a good part, and thats fine.

it would be nice to be able to fight squishier champions on tankier builds again and itemize into more sustained damage instead of being forced to try and flash burst on them with triforce every time.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yslaxkoF,comment-id=000100010000,timestamp=2019-01-24T17:27:49.064+0000)

how do juggernauts "abuse" tank items?

theyre supposed to carry on almost the same item builds, with the exception of one or two ad/health items like cleaver, titanic or steraks.

sunfire cape had historically been an item that had been bought both by tanks and juggers. garen was one of the most infamous champions who used to buy sunfire cape, before they changed it from flat damage to scaling, and dead mans was introduced for juggers.

its not like fighters care that tanks pick up dead mans from time to time. our items just overlap to a good part, and thats fine.

it would be nice to be able to fight squishier champions on tankier builds again and itemize into more sustained damage instead of being forced to try and flash burst on them with triforce every time.

Who would've guessed Critmaster Garen would ignore the option to buff a tank item's damage by making it scale defense so tanks can use it without juggernauts forcing it to be weak, and instead suggest it scale for juggernauts who have two better first buy items instead? I'm truly shocked.

Your argument that Deadman's was introduced for juggernauts isn't exactly true. It was introduced at the same time, yes, but its stats are were always identical to Sunfire's. And it is a defensive item.

Meanwhile, it's perfectly viable to buy Cleaver and Sterak's first on any of the AD juggernauts and not even bother with an armor or MR item until 4th or 5th. Or forego defense entirely to just take Death's Dance.

And the reason you're having to flash burst is because you're building incorrectly, not because building correctly is bad. Garen hasn't rushed triforce in quite some time. It's only the people who want to do that flashy move who do it, and their defense is rightfully lowered because of their playstyle.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

Who would've guessed Critmaster Garen would ignore the option to buff a tank item's damage by making it scale defense so tanks can use it without juggernauts forcing it to be weak, and instead suggest it scale for juggernauts who have two better first buy items instead? I'm truly shocked.

Your argument that Deadman's was introduced for juggernauts isn't exactly true. It was introduced at the same time, yes, but its stats are were always identical to Sunfire's. And it is a defensive item.

Meanwhile, it's perfectly viable to buy Cleaver and Sterak's first on any of the AD juggernauts and not even bother with an armor or MR item until 4th or 5th. Or forego defense entirely to just take Death's Dance.

And the reason you're having to flash burst is because you're building incorrectly, not because building correctly is bad. Garen hasn't rushed triforce in quite some time. It's only the people who want to do that flashy move who do it, and their defense is rightfully lowered because of their playstyle.

brother have you tried to build garen beefy with cleaver and fight squishies recently?

you do shit for damage, your resistances barely matter because they just ignore them, and just lose the race. you cant take extended trades against skirmshers with conqueror, or even a lot of adc. this leaves your only option to try and burst them.

like i can have 4k fucking health on a juggernaut because i build for extended fights and still get deleted in 5 seconds, or i can build more damage, get deleted in 3 seconds but have a much higher chance to delete my opponent before he deletes me. what makes more sense? its just what happens when you gear the game towards damage outscaling defense so hard, that there is barely a point in building it anymore.

why do you think the only juggers that are currently worth shit are champions like aatrox and urgot who basically delete their opponent in one combo?

the idea of making sunfire scale with base ad would make the item a bit better for juggernauts as a sustained damage tool, yes.

maybe we would be able to take extended fights if our items supported it a bit better.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yslaxkoF,comment-id=00010001000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-24T21:42:26.338+0000)

brother have you tried to build garen beefy with cleaver and fight squishies recently?

you do shit for damage, your resistances barely matter because they just ignore them, and just lose the race. you cant take extended trades against skirmshers with conqueror, or even a lot of adc. this leaves your only option to try and burst them.

why do you think the only juggers that are currently worth shit are champions like aatrox and urgot who basically delete their opponent in one combo?

the idea of making sunfire scale with base ad would make the item a bit better for juggernauts as a sustained damage tool, yes.

maybe we would be able to take extended fights if our items supported it a bit better.

Have you? Because that's what people are doing.

Moody P2 votes

which elo

The Ecdysiast1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yslaxkoF,comment-id=0001000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-24T21:53:38.692+0000)

which elo

op.gg uses plat+

It's probably that rushing trinity is seen more in gold/silver and below.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Have you? Because that's what people are doing.

yes? i barely play other champions?

like what is the point in building juggernauts tanky right now, when every class from mages to marksmen was reworked to deal double the damage they did in season 5 and everyone got tools to straight up ignore defenses and shred health?

a single Brand on the enemy team and why would i ever itemize into health over just ad to kill him before he gets his shit off? im not going to live through a brand combo anyway. and thats their support.

Vayne forget it

even Velkoz deals a shitload of true damage these days

there are so many champions that shred health, ignore resistances or do both, that it feels pointless to build for anything but burst in most games.

Darius was considered tanky at some point. right now he just dies in the 3 seconds cooldown window before he can get a second q off in a fight if he actually tries what hes supposed to and dives into the enemy team.

the idea of juggernauts was that they win battles of attrition. in the game environment as it is, these fights dont exist anymore other than between tanks and juggernauts.

Doge20201 votes

There aren’t really enough items to separate a juggernaut full build and a full tank build. Juggernauts will always dip into the tank items and “abuse” items that best help them. The best example I can think of from the top of my head is Nasus, he can build item 3025 (which is usually build on tanks and almost never built on juggernauts) to increase his sticking power, resistances and his damage. Champs like Leona, blitz, and Ornn buy this same item to get the same exact benefits that nasus also wants from buying Gauntlet.

What I am saying is: yes there can be items that are intended for tanks, but juggernauts and tanks have such similar builds and weaknesses that some juggernauts will build this tank specific item because they have so much synergy with this item.

I am not saying that making a tank specific item is impossible, I encourage you to make a tank specific item. I am also saying that somebody will find a loop hole where that item will have a lot of synergy with a champ that is not intended to use it. There was something else that I wanted to add on to this reasoning paragraph but I forgot what it was lol

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

There aren’t really enough items to separate a juggernaut full build and a full tank build. Juggernauts will always dip into the tank items and “abuse” items that best help them. The best example I can think of from the top of my head is Nasus, he can build item 3025 (which is usually build on tanks and almost never built on juggernauts) to increase his sticking power, resistances and his damage. Champs like Leona, blitz, and Ornn buy this same item to get the same exact benefits that nasus also wants from buying Gauntlet.

What I am saying is: yes there can be items that are intended for tanks, but juggernauts and tanks have such similar builds and weaknesses that some juggernauts will build this tank specific item because they have so much synergy with this item.

I am not saying that making a tank specific item is impossible, I encourage you to make a tank specific item. I am also saying that somebody will find a loop hole where that item will have a lot of synergy with a champ that is not intended to use it. There was something else that I wanted to add on to this reasoning paragraph but I forgot what it was lol

there are only very few tank and juggernaut specific items to begin with.

most health/resistance items are expected to be bought by tanks and juggernauts.

tank builds are almost the same as juggernaut builds.

a typical tank build could be something like this item 3025 item 3068 item 3065 item 3083 item 3193 item 3111

while a typical juggernaut build could be something like this item 3071 item 3053 item 3742 item 3083 item 3065 item 3111

(replace cleaver with titanic or triforce depending on the champion)

at least that was the original inention with the juggernaut update. tank and jugger itemization have large overlap in general. they just use a lot of the same items. the problem is, that in the current meta, the second build has become insanely ineffective if you want to actually carry as a juggernaut.

it has become more rewarding to just build triforce and make flash plays on squishies, because defensive itemization neither gives you the survivability, nor the damage to outtrade skirmishers and marksmen.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

{quoted}

There aren’t really enough items to separate a juggernaut full build and a full tank build. Juggernauts will always dip into the tank items and “abuse” items that best help them. The best example I can think of from the top of my head is Nasus, he can build item 3025 (which is usually build on tanks and almost never built on juggernauts) to increase his sticking power, resistances and his damage. Champs like Leona, blitz, and Ornn buy this same item to get the same exact benefits that nasus also wants from buying Gauntlet.

What I am saying is: yes there can be items that are intended for tanks, but juggernauts and tanks have such similar builds and weaknesses that some juggernauts will build this tank specific item because they have so much synergy with this item.

I am not saying that making a tank specific item is impossible, I encourage you to make a tank specific item. I am also saying that somebody will find a loop hole where that item will have a lot of synergy with a champ that is not intended to use it. There was something else that I wanted to add on to this reasoning paragraph but I forgot what it was lol

The point is that while they have similar weaknesses, juggernauts' strengths turn what should be a reasonable item for a tank into an unfair item for a fighter. Sometimes it even happens with items that are most well balanced on other subclasses of fighter.

As far as making a tank item that juggernauts won't abuse, that's exactly what I've suggested by responding to Critmaster with the idea to make anything Sunfire might scale for be armor, not AD. Who would've guessed the guy named Critmaster Garen would overlook the reasonable scaling option to instead favor its use on juggernauts?

Pokemonred2001 votes

Personally, I think the biggest issue from item 3068 is the fact that when you take into account only its stats, it's the exact same item as item 3742 and is only ahead of item 3143 by 25 health. Before its recent buff, it was the exact same price as both of those items, but at present, DMP and Randuin's both provide better passives than Sunfire on most champions that would even think of buying a Sunfire Cape to begin with.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

{quoted}

Personally, I think the biggest issue from item 3068 is the fact that when you take into account only its stats, it's the exact same item as item 3742 and is only ahead of item 3143 by 25 health. Before its recent buff, it was the exact same price as both of those items, but at present, DMP and Randuin's both provide better passives than Sunfire on most champions that would even think of buying a Sunfire Cape to begin with.

Well a cost decrease isn't a buff.

And even as it stands, it's still less gold efficient than either of those options (assuming your opponent uses crits against Randuin's).

Z3Sleeper1 votes

Cost decreases are pretty massive buffs actually. But reducing the cost of trash doesn’t entice anyone to buy it.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

{quoted}

Cost decreases are pretty massive buffs actually. But reducing the cost of trash doesn’t entice anyone to buy it.

Technically, yes. But increasing it from being extremely inefficient to only slightly more efficient but still the least efficient first buy in the game and still well below 100% efficiency isn't a buff because it's still not good enough to buy.

It doesn't give any stats at all if it stays in the shop because its class can't use it effectively.

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

Someone suggested changing the cadence to 0.25 seconds instead of it's current 1 second (with the same overall DPS).

I don't think this would "fix" Sunfire Cape, but at least it's something.

Z3Sleeper3 votes

I mean I think it’s a good idea too to make it actually work before buffing it at all.

The thigh guy1 votes

Tbh no tank items can physically be good at the moment. There are just too many ways to ignore % amounts of tank stats. I mean sure, we can crank the tank stats of frozen heart from 90 or w/e it’s at now, but if 60+% of it is ignored it won’t matter much.

Syrile1 votes

Sunfire Cape is such a cool idea... Wish it was usable with more than a very rare champion build. The decreased gold does not make up for the lack of CDR or other stats to make it relevant so.. yeah?

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