There's a huge difference between being immobile melee and immobile and ranged

HateDaddy··14 votes·2,387 views

Typically being immobile is a designed weakness for both ranged and MELEE champions alike. But let's get one thing straight: there is a HUGE difference between being melee and immobile and ranged and immobile. Being ranged in itself is a huge advantage for starters and generally, ranged immobile champions will have tons of power in their kits that make up for their lack of mobility while melees typically rely heavily on durability, which durability only lasts for so long.

Being immobile like a Nasus, Garen, Darius, Singed, etc is much more damning than being immobile as a Syndra, Ryze, Lux etc. These champions have long ranged abilities or generally have enough range to keep themselves at a safe distance from ever being in real trouble in solo situations. They've also got plenty of power to disrupt any attempt of engagement on them while also using that same power to pin you down and nuke you. The only issue you have is being ganked and while that is a weak point for you, it's a designed weak point, not a death sentence.

Melee champions who are immobile typically only have one route of viability: some gimmicky style of play. They can't teamfight, that's for sure. Their immobility IS a death sentence in many situations. The best they can do is clean up in teamfighting, or using flash + engaging, which is weak in its own right (though admittedly potentially game changing). But ranged champions can do this too with the benefit of being ranged and not relying on flash.

So please, when you say "yeah but this champion is immobile," please keep it in perspective. If the champion is immobile and ranged, especially long ranged, then mobility for them really isn't that big of an issue. But being immobile and Melee, yeah, have fun not mattering.

35 Comments

Darth Valer3 votes

Gangplank: Where's your God now?

HateDaddy22 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darth Valer,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yqqEGLEs,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-05-12T22:46:41.042+0000)

Gangplank: Where's your God now?

I started cloth armor + 5 pots

I hit level 2

I have now outscaled gangplank

Darth Valer2 votes

{quoted}

I started cloth armor + 5 pots

I hit level 2

I have now outscaled gangplank

However true that might be, the pun lied in GP being both an immobile melee and ranged champ (although I realize he's mostly the former).

HateDaddy2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darth Valer,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yqqEGLEs,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-05-12T22:52:47.146+0000)

However true that might be, the pun lied in GP being both an immobile melee and ranged champ (although I realize he's mostly the former).

Theres plenty of melee champions with ranged abilities, look at Mordekaiser of Galio for example. What separates Morde and Gangplank from Galio (and even Galio has his own issues) is lack of CC (gangplanks passive and ult really aren't that significant enough in power to be deemed a threat outside of 1v1 situations) and generally easy to walk away from or focus and blow up.

LilxPaprika2 votes

i think he mean mostly melee that rely on AA for dps. not so much melee caster champions. Its like kayle is melee but really she's ranged. hell even aatrox ult could be considered pretty rangeish. Had an aatrox auto me within range of my xinzhao's ult. was like wuuutt whereas while volibear ult can have a lot of ranged aoe he still needs to get up close to a target.

that element of positioning that makes all the difference for upclose melee champs.

HateDaddy2 votes

{quoted}

i think he mean mostly melee that rely on AA for dps. not so much melee caster champions. Its like kayle is melee but really she's ranged. hell even aatrox ult could be considered pretty rangeish. Had an aatrox auto me within range of my xinzhao's ult. was like wuuutt whereas while volibear ult can have a lot of ranged aoe he still needs to get up close to a target.

that element of positioning that makes all the difference for upclose melee champs.

The thing is, many melee champions who are immobile have to rely on flanking to teamfight well. It's either that or go all out dive or all out protecting, meaning the element of controlling the fight may be in their hands but the execution of winning or losing the fight is completely out of their hands. Ranged champions almost never face that issue because they can play completely reactively in most cases if they chose to be on the safe side and can even make more aggressive plays when needed.

For example, a melee champion who relies on flanking also relies heavily on having vision control in the area. Vision control is a crucial thing in games but it's never a sure thing when needed most, which is why several immobile melees see absolutely little play competitively (not to mention it's easy as hell to starve them out).

People act like Lux is weak and I disagree entirely. Lux has huge play making power, Lux can be extremely safe in lane outside of a few match-ups (think Fizz as an example). The reason Lux isn't considered as powerful is because why play Lux when Xerath exists? Xerath is much safer because he's overall longer ranged but Lux still IS good. The issue isn't that Lux needs buffs, Xerath just needs nerfs or the meta in general isn't favorable for her or even Xerath.

That's why I can't stress this enough: most of these champions don't need buffs. Syndra doesn't need buffs, Lux doesn't need buffs - their strong as fuck when they can be good picks. The only thing buffing them does is making them OP as shit and forcing them into being pick or ban and that will ultimately lead to nerfs that end up making them weaker than they were when people wanted buffs in the first place. Either way, immobility isn't why they aren't being played (and Syndra still DOES get played). Saying their weaknesses and entire reason for needing buffs is their immobility is completely undermining one of the things that prevents them from being OP - and that's buffing them to suddenly compensate for a weakness that isn't all tha detrimental to them in the first place. Just ask Garen, Darius and Singed about immobility.

DanofDemacia1 votes

{quoted}

The thing is, many melee champions who are immobile have to rely on flanking to teamfight well. It's either that or go all out dive or all out protecting, meaning the element of controlling the fight may be in their hands but the execution of winning or losing the fight is completely out of their hands. Ranged champions almost never face that issue because they can play completely reactively in most cases if they chose to be on the safe side and can even make more aggressive plays when needed.

For example, a melee champion who relies on flanking also relies heavily on having vision control in the area. Vision control is a crucial thing in games but it's never a sure thing when needed most, which is why several immobile melees see absolutely little play competitively (not to mention it's easy as hell to starve them out).

People act like Lux is weak and I disagree entirely. Lux has huge play making power, Lux can be extremely safe in lane outside of a few match-ups (think Fizz as an example). The reason Lux isn't considered as powerful is because why play Lux when Xerath exists? Xerath is much safer because he's overall longer ranged but Lux still IS good. The issue isn't that Lux needs buffs, Xerath just needs nerfs or the meta in general isn't favorable for her or even Xerath.

That's why I can't stress this enough: most of these champions don't need buffs. Syndra doesn't need buffs, Lux doesn't need buffs - their strong as fuck when they can be good picks. The only thing buffing them does is making them OP as shit and forcing them into being pick or ban and that will ultimately lead to nerfs that end up making them weaker than they were when people wanted buffs in the first place. Either way, immobility isn't why they aren't being played (and Syndra still DOES get played). Saying their weaknesses and entire reason for needing buffs is their immobility is completely undermining one of the things that prevents them from being OP - and that's buffing them to suddenly compensate for a weakness that isn't all tha detrimental to them in the first place. Just ask Garen, Darius and Singed about immobility.

You dont even play lux brah. Sorry not sorry your talking out of your ass. She has a terrible unnsafe laning phase. Her main wave clear is ass she cant farm under turret or from a range for shit. She needs to get in aa range to any kind of farming and any kind of damage. She is straight damage with little utility. No plays are being made by lux. If she had an ult like oriannas or zyras yes but one thats straigt damage no. She has the third lowest base health and armor but for what? You are right that she is out classed by xerath but she is also just lacking everywhere

HateDaddy8 votes

{quoted}

You dont even play lux brah. Sorry not sorry your talking out of your ass. She has a terrible unnsafe laning phase. Her main wave clear is ass she cant farm under turret or from a range for shit. She needs to get in aa range to any kind of farming and any kind of damage. She is straight damage with little utility. No plays are being made by lux. If she had an ult like oriannas or zyras yes but one thats straigt damage no. She has the third lowest base health and armor but for what? You are right that she is out classed by xerath but she is also just lacking everywhere

You're out of your fucking mind. Holy shit you are so delusional lol.

She has good utility, I wouldn't call it amazing but I wouldn't call it bad.

Her wave clear is pretty good actually.

She can easily farm from range and her base stats are low BECAUSE EVERY SINGLE ONE OF HER ABILITIES IS 1100 RANGE +. That's safe as fuck, that's the definition of safe. Yes she can lose to some champions like LB and Fizz but she's relatively safe.

Her AA range is 550, which is decent range for a non ADC champion. Her E clears waves. She lands a snare, AA, E, AA then pop the E. Bam, not that hard. And she'll have retreated to safe enough range by the time that combo is done. She's safe lol.

I shouldn't even be wasting time arguing with you, you're completey delusional and it's driving me insane. Muh 51% winrate 10% pickrate champ is garbo Roit pls buff.

You know what, buff her. I'll be laughing my ass off when she's nerfed a few patches afterwards and is actually worse off than what she is.

DanofDemacia1 votes

{quoted}

You're out of your fucking mind. Holy shit you are so delusional lol.

She has good utility, I wouldn't call it amazing but I wouldn't call it bad.

Her wave clear is pretty good actually.

She can easily farm from range and her base stats are low BECAUSE EVERY SINGLE ONE OF HER ABILITIES IS 1100 RANGE +. That's safe as fuck, that's the definition of safe. Yes she can lose to some champions like LB and Fizz but she's relatively safe.

Her AA range is 550, which is decent range for a non ADC champion. Her E clears waves. She lands a snare, AA, E, AA then pop the E. Bam, not that hard. And she'll have retreated to safe enough range by the time that combo is done. She's safe lol.

I shouldn't even be wasting time arguing with you, you're completey delusional and it's driving me insane. Muh 51% winrate 10% pickrate champ is garbo Roit pls buff.

You know what, buff her. I'll be laughing my ass off when she's nerfed a few patches afterwards and is actually worse off than what she is.

Still talkiing out of your ass i see. Her wave clear is poo poo garbage unreliable. Never clears casters ever. 130 mana cost wtf. Dude play and then tell me she has enough utility and enough damage. Her late game is indeed god like but getting there is really not likely. Play her then talk

HateDaddy2 votes

{quoted}

Still talkiing out of your ass i see. Her wave clear is poo poo garbage unreliable. Never clears casters ever. 130 mana cost wtf. Dude play and then tell me she has enough utility and enough damage. Her late game is indeed god like but getting there is really not likely. Play her then talk

I have played her and she's fine. She's completely balanced and doesn't need a thing.

Sorry your 1100 range champion needs a few points in her E, a little bit of mana Regen and AP to auto clear waves. It's a shame AP itemization doesn't offer this packaged together.

Oh

Or you know, you can just spam your Low CD ult to clear waves, back, buy and have it up again when you get back to lane.

DanofDemacia1 votes

{quoted}

I have played her and she's fine. She's completely balanced and doesn't need a thing.

Sorry your 1100 range champion needs a few points in her E, a little bit of mana Regen and AP to auto clear waves. It's a shame AP itemization doesn't offer this packaged together.

Oh

Or you know, you can just spam your Low CD ult to clear waves, back, buy and have it up again when you get back to lane.

You dont dude. A little mana regen? Nice try son. No other mage needs to use there auto to clear waves brah. Theres no reason to choose her over xerath velkoz or ziggs. Shes not in a good spot

HateDaddy2 votes

{quoted}

You dont dude. A little mana regen? Nice try son. No other mage needs to use there auto to clear waves brah. Theres no reason to choose her over xerath velkoz or ziggs. Shes not in a good spot

Early on, they do need to auto attack. Not different from Lux, once they get some AP, they don't.

DanofDemacia1 votes

{quoted}

Early on, they do need to auto attack. Not different from Lux, once they get some AP, they don't.

Yeah but they everntentually can clear it lux never can

JJ H0G1 votes

Voli, Kayle, and Aatrox are not immobile. Voli and Kayle both have speed boosts (Kayle's scaling with AP), and Aatrox has his dash/knock up.

HateDaddy2 votes

[{quoted}](name=JJ H0G,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yqqEGLEs,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2015-05-13T00:20:37.199+0000)

Voli, Kayle, and Aatrox are not immobile. Voli and Kayle both have speed boosts (Kayle's scaling with AP), and Aatrox has his dash/knock up.

Id consider Voli relatively immobile on the sense that yes, he has a speed boost but he doesn't have anyway to get past a front line outside of flashing and he's required to be in melee range to disrupt you.

Kayle is technically melee but she plays like a ranged champion entirely. She had a speed boost plus a massive slow and a ranged AoE AA that completely melts it's targets. Then there's her ult. Fuck Kayle in all honesty.

Mandang01 votes

People still complain about Kayle? Wow.

HateDaddy2 votes

{quoted}

People still complain about Kayle? Wow.

No, she's probably not as bad as people lead on but she's lame to play against when she's good. She has very limited decision making, she brings the power to nuke your entire team while also providing insane utility by making you immune to death for a short duration.

BluePolarizer1 votes

Autoattacking melees in general are good if they're built bruiser. Most melee AD casters fall off HARD late game and are only good at snowballing, making them gods of low elo where someone, in some lane, will feed, but the higher you go, the worse they get. Zed, Rengar and Talon are not melee AD casters, they weave autoattacks with their spells and build attack speed with item 3142 .

Mandang02 votes

Eh, let's keep our eyes on the real enemy here - the mobility creep. Immobile mages also aren't in a good place right now, and they're not all Xerath- or Lux-ranged. Ranged champs have designed weaknesses too, and they extend beyond being ganked. Nasus is probably in a better place than Ryze, despite their range difference. Udyr, Shyvana, Mundo, Volibear too. If you ask me, it's more a problem with some specific champs' designs rather than an overarching problem felt by all immobile melees, especially in this less-mobile meta.

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

Eh, let's keep our eyes on the real enemy here - the mobility creep. Immobile mages also aren't in a good place right now, and they're not all Xerath- or Lux-ranged. Ranged champs have designed weaknesses too, and they extend beyond being ganked. Nasus is probably in a better place than Ryze, despite their range difference. Udyr, Shyvana, Mundo, Volibear too. If you ask me, it's more a problem with some specific champs' designs rather than an overarching problem felt by all immobile melees, especially in this less-mobile meta.

Tell me an immobile mage and I'll tell you why they're considered weak. Here's the thing: it will have very little to do with their immobility. Being ranged is one of the best ways to deal with mobility creep outside of raw mobility itself.

Mandang01 votes

I don't doubt it, but I think I could do the same for a lot of your immobile melees.

All I'm saying is that the mobility creep is hurting both sides, and if we've seen anything between the assassin meta and now a tank meta, it's that immobile mages as a class are at least as unpopular as immobile melees. Your argument sounds a lot like the usual assumption that ranged champions are simply melee champions with better range, which is obviously (I hope) not true. Your other reasons for immobile mages' weakness is part of this difference between ranged champs and melee champs.

BluePolarizer1 votes

some immobile mages are hidden OP. Malzahar and Brand in particular have big potential. In a tank meta, Malzahar is both a tank melter, the best peeler in the game and the best duelist in the game. Brand can melt entire teams, tanks included.

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

some immobile mages are hidden OP. Malzahar and Brand in particular have big potential. In a tank meta, Malzahar is both a tank melter, the best peeler in the game and the best duelist in the game. Brand can melt entire teams, tanks included.

I agree that Malz could potentially be very good in this tank Meta. However, Malz has an issue of being extremely easy to disrupt since he has to suppress himself in order to suppress an enemy target, which leaves him a sitting duck even if it's using it as a tool to peel. He can't do anything about someone walking up to him and applying CC and just killing him from there. This has always been a designed weakness, which means he has to use his ult and combo on a beefy champion at the right time - typically when initiation has been done and key CC is down on the enemy team. That still doesn't mean he's bad, he's extremely powerful for getting picks which is something he can play to - typically he wins many lane match-ups giving him pressure early, meaning an early mid tower could set up vision control in the enemy jungle and picks galore.

But generally he's very inconsistent, which is why I suspect he isn't played. Why play Malz to melt one tank when you can pick LB to dive past a front line and 100-0 a carry and let the beefy tanks slug it out? Or you could pick AP Kog and zone carries in fights with E/R and still do respectable damage to tanks? Or even full AP cho who is going to drop 1000 true damage on anything he wants, meaning flash + R and ignite is going to be 3/4ths of a carried health or a big chunk of a tanks health, not to mention his disruption.

Brand has a similar issue in that he's just largely very inconsistent. He can do absurd amounts of damage or he can do very little, his ult has to be perfectly timed. He's a lot harder to disrupt however and he's got a decent lane phase to boot, but not unlike Malz, while there's enormous potential to melt tanks and have a strong niche in this meta, there are simply more consistent picks.

Some of these weaknesses have to do with mobility, Malz in general but that's his designed weakness and always has been so mobility creep hasn't made it any worse - being a sitting duck suppressing your target leaves you prone to anything just walking up to you and ccing you.

In general, mobility creep HAS impacted all immobile champions. But ranged champions have many tools to deal with this, being ranged is a big advantage to boot. Immobile melee champions, even with abilities and skills designed to help with CC and MS boosts, still are the champions who have the burden or getting to ranged champions in the first place, which already puts them at a huge disadvantage. And while immobility is a designed weakness for them, the difference is they were already at a supreme disadvantage anyway. It really is the reason why many melee champions like Garen, Nasus, Darius, Singed etc aren't picked very often if at all.

Fertsa1 votes

Nasus is given a heavy slow to get out of 1v1 situations but otherwise he's kinda screwed.

Garen is garen. if you hadn't noticed he has a gigantic speed up and a slow remover.

Singed's whole bit is running

i got nothing for darius tho.

Aelvr1 votes

We live in a LoL era where MS buffs need to be massive (like Udyr's) to be considered mobility.

Troy2426211 votes

Don't worry. Udyr is overloaded to the teeth, making him a miserable experience to deal with as any other melee champion, immobile or no. Damn thing >_>.

darkchan51 votes

You made a comment on immobile champions...

And you didn't mention Mordekaiser...

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

You made a comment on immobile champions...

And you didn't mention Mordekaiser...

Yes Mordekaiser falls into this category somewhat but he also has ranged spells with an extremely unique ultimate. He's somewhere in the middle for sure.

SleepyLionCub1 votes

Better nerf Morgana

FooDang1 votes

Garen is immobile? Have you ever tried catching one? yes you can...eventually...halfway across the map...

Aelvr1 votes

OP's point is that Garen lacks the kind of mobility that is useful in teamfights & aggressive moves in-lane. Who cares if Garen's on the other side of the map? Kill his carries and his turrets. Even in lane, he's not very mobile. Any champion with a ranged slow will be able to keep his distance easily.

FooDang1 votes

Garen was a poor example that the OP used...I was just being sarcastic...If you're going to talk about Immobile champs you should probably use champs that are...Immobile...And its not the lack of Dashs that make Garen not able to be useful in team fights...Garen's kit just sucks for team fights...BTW did you know decisive strike removes all slows from Garen?

HateDaddy2 votes

{quoted}

Garen was a poor example that the OP used...I was just being sarcastic...If you're going to talk about Immobile champs you should probably use champs that are...Immobile...And its not the lack of Dashs that make Garen not able to be useful in team fights...Garen's kit just sucks for team fights...BTW did you know decisive strike removes all slows from Garen?

That's great

Then someone applies hard CC to you once and you can't get past a front line. In theory, Garens teamfight should be amazing. He can be tha tankiest champion in the game and a full E combo initiated by Q and finished off with R/ignite can kill a carry, even if Garen is full tank (and that's not even talking about black cleaver on him now). The issue is you can run away from him, kite him and cc him for days and there's nothing he can do outside of flashing onto you, which is easy to play around as a team.

Aelvr1 votes

I did, in fact. That's why I always save my slows for after he's cast it but before he lands it.

Chaotic Reks1 votes

poordekaiser... Mordekaiser item 3070

More from Gameplay

More by HateDaddy