Unbiased Lee Sin suggestions! yes... more Lee Sin

Dreadlocks··2 votes·1,490 views

I'm going to start off by saying Lee Sin is my favorite champ, however, I want to propose some ideas to make both Lee Sin fans and Lee Sins critics satisfied. To start off I would like to say from a player who has never played Lee Sin or at least not very much.. I've seen some exaggerated suggestions. Suggestions that I feel are not the main issue for why Lee Sin is so dominate. Suggestions like: His damage is too high, ward hoping should be removed. etc.. However, many Lee Sin mains would agree that this isn't what makes him so good. I personally think it has to do with the depth of his kit and the way he can transition to being above average at every stage of the game... So without further a-do-i-bring-to-u.... My suggestions, But first lets talk about his kit and why its so good even in Preseason-5 Jungle.

The main thing many "top pick" junglers struggle in the new jungle is because of their sustain.Evelynn Rengar Lee Sin doesn't get penalized even with an armor nerf at the beginning of preseason 5. This is because his W gives him a shield, lifesteal, and most importantly...Spell vamp. Spell vamp with Lee Sins' Q and Smite makes for some insane sustain in the jungle. Another thing Lee Sin has that I feel is a bit overload is the second cast on his E granting vision to invisible champs. The last thing I think could use some change is his Q. Giving Lee Sin % damage on his Q is cool and all but a bit much. So I would like to suggest some changes without removing Lee Sins identity. Lee Sin is super fun to play and I hope he remains to be.

Now: Q - 170 +90% AD // 170 +90% AD +8% missing Health Suggestion: More damage per lvl remove %health and give 2nd cast higher %AD ratio Reason: 8% missing health scales well into late game, giving more damage per lvl should be enough to keep this spell relevant for damage

Now: W - 200 HP Shield +80% AP // 25% Lifesteal and Spell vamp Suggestion: Keep 1st cast the same // Remove LS + Spell vamp instead give bonus damage on next 2 autos i.e. 10/15/20/25/30 (magic or physical unsure) Reason: The second cast on his W is what makes him so F-NING strong in the jungle.. He can sustain and gank like no other champ make him have to go back to base more often or buy more pots just like everyone else.

Now: E - 200 + 100% AD as magic dmg //60% MS slow and reveals invis enemies Suggestion: 200 + 125% AD as magic dmg // 50% MS remove revealing invis Reason: Nerfing the % damage on Lee's Q is going to hurt so giving him some compensation with his E is only fair imo.. Not to mention we'd be removing his ability to see invis champs with E. I feel a small nerf to the Slow is only fair.

Keep R the same.. at least for now. Lee Sins early ganks should remain strong , given his kit. He has long range initiation, a slow, and some fair damage still. He will lack sustain in the jungle so his farming potential will be more so limited than it is now.. Unless of course he decides not to gank which is what every decision junglers are faced with right now.

Furthermore, I feel this is a strong leap into a positive direction. Keeps his flashy plays but loses some of the utility. I really hope to get some unbiased replies to this. I would like to see both Lee Sin mains as well as those annoyed with him "satisfied" with any changes that are made to him. As obvious as this may be, I cannot personally test these changes so numbers may be off, but I hope my idea is at the very least understandable and "healthy"

16 Comments

EagleMK42 votes

If anything his kit should be changed to rek sai's as if he was burrowed....

Cale0171 votes

Honestly while these are some good suggestions, they aren't really addressing the true problem with Lee Sin. See, the issue with a Lee Sin is that while he falls off during the late game, from a numerical standpoint he has an unfair advantage over pretty much every other jungler who builds the same items as him at the same time as him.

Say, just for the sake of simplicity, that you have a Lee Sin and a Shyvana. Ignoring their first items, since a Shyv is probably going to build Devourer's while Lee Sin builds a Warrior's, focus on what they get next. The Shyvana is planning to play as an off tank, which arguably works better for her in the late game. She knows she won't need mass single target damage so instead of getting a BotRK early on she instead builds a Hydra, as does Lee Sin.

Breaking things down to their scalings on their damage abilities reveals why Lee Sin poses an oppressive amount of force in the early game and an unfair advantage in the midgame:

From the same 75 AD that both have built from a Hydra, Lee Sin's abilities are dealing far more damage than Shyvana's, even assuming that you stand in her W for it's full duration while taking the sustained damage from her E marks while she's AAing or Qing you. Eventually she might do the same damage as a full Lee Sin combo, but she isn't going to do it nearly as fast, and she isn't going to do it with both the mobility and the utility that Lee Sin brings. Because of this, Lee Sin's ganking harder, and his high mobility allows him to put pressure on lanes a lot faster than a Shyvana, or pretty much any jungler early on, will be capable of doing.

All the same, Shyvana starts getting fed off lanes where Lee Sin isn't. Because their top laner has decided to build as a straight tank, perhaps it was a damage focused Nasus or whatever before this, just bear with me for the sake of the example, and Shyvana's up by a few kills she figures it's safe to build another damage item. So while she's working on a BotRK, Lee Sin builds himself a Randuin's Omen. As we enter the mid game of this little matchup, Shyvana is now starting to deal comparable damage off of her kit to a Lee Sin in a smaller amount of time. Within a few seconds she can eat someone alive, and keep them within range between the BotRK active and her W's MS boost. However, Lee Sin can still kill them much faster, and with much more ease, because the scalings on his abilities are so high that his damage has remained consistent from his early game while he has more mobility options than Shyvana. As Shyvana is only just reaching somewhere near the sheer damage output that Lee Sin can do off of one item with her two items, Lee Sin has also built a defensive item. And herein lies the other issue with Lee Sin's kit aside from his insane early damage:

With few damage items, a Lee Sin can build tanky after that and still keep his damage completely relevant during the mid game due to his scalings. Because he is getting so much more than Shyvana is from just the 75 AD granted by the Hydra, as Shyvana is only just starting to equal his damage he's getting the edge on her in another department: defenses. Lee Sin can now unload on someone and even if they can withstand his initial burst, he can survive long enough to go in soon afterwards because of his low cooldowns. So with only two items built on either side, Shyvana is only barely reaching the same sort of kill potential while Lee Sin is much more durable.

Shyvana begins playing catchup, building her own Randuin's Omen while Lee Sin builds some MR with a Spirit Visage, or perhaps a Banshee's Veil. Shyvana matches this afterwards by building a Maw of Malmortius while Lee Sin builds a Warmog's Armor.

Going into the end of the mid game, nearing the late game or going into it, the matchup is now this:

The Hydra, BotRK, and Maw are giving Shyvana a definite edge in damage, in terms of armor the two are comparable, with the advantage likely going to Shyvana due to her passive, especially in dragon form, and in terms of MR the two are about even, again with some small advantage going to Shyvana due to her passive and dragon form. However, with the same number of items Lee Sin also has a considerable amount more health. And had Shyvana built a Banshee's Veil or a Spirit Visage to give her more tank stats, she would still only be dealing comparable damage to the Lee Sin instead of outdoing him in that department, so he would still have more health either way, even if their MR were similar.

While Shyvana is lstill quite capable of absorbing damage in dragon form, she's having to give up some of her durability potential in favor of damage in order to get some sort of a lead on the Lee Sin in at least one department. If she does not build more damage, she is instead allowing herself to tie him in two, maybe three departments (damage, armor, and MR) while giving him the advantage in health. So either she accepts being not as durable during teamfights by not building more health, or she accepts only just keeping even with Lee Sin but has to hope her allies can deal enough damage to compensate for what she's lacking.

This is how Lee Sin stays relevant early and mid game. A Lee Sin can build a single high AD damage item and retain his strong power curve for the next 20 to 30 minutes of a match. It isn't until the other team has built up their defenses enough to stop him being able to eat them alive, meanwhile likely giving up on damage themselves doing so and making it harder to fight against a team building heavy damage to push the advantage Lee Sin has given them, that a Lee Sin will fall off. He relies heavily on small skirmishes as his skillshot can be difficult to land on the correct target during a teamfight, and no matter who you are diving into 5 enemies is never a good idea.

Except possibly Rammus, but he's the exception and we love him for it.

This is where the Shyvana, who has comparable or possibly more damage, depending on how she built, while having similar defenses if a few hundred less health, will appear to be outscaling the Lee Sin. She has many more options to handle a teamfight, considerable AoE damage above and beyond Lee Sin, and can actively engage a fight because, let's be honest, there's nothing quite like the feeling of dragon forming into 5 enemies with your burnout active and going ham with fire breath and cleaves. However, this appearance of being outscaled is entirely artificial.

Due to his high scalings, if a Lee Sin and a Shyvana were to have the exact same builds, the Lee Sin would be doing MUCH more damage. If both Lee Sin and Shyvana were to build Hydra, BotRK, Maw of Malmortius, Bloodthirster, and Mercurial Scmitar (I'm aware that no one would use this unless they were likely just dicking around, but it's just an example for the numbers), both of them are sitting on oh, about 350-ish damage from items, and they both have somewhere around 16-1800 health, I don't know exactly how much either of them would have if not building any health items. So we'll just say 2000 for the sake of ease.

Lee Sin and Shyvana meet in top lane. Shyvana readies, turning on her W and rushing him, possibly even ulting over him with it active to give herself the bonus resistance. Her Q will deal, assuming it's maxed at this point, is essentially two full autos at one time. So she autos and then Qs, her most simple damage combo, dealing roughly 900 damage after the armor reductions, while her burnout is dealing an additional 140ish damage between it's base damage and it's AD scaling, in the one second it takes her to hit her auto and her Q while he's standing in it. So all in all, in that one second of the fight Shyvana has dealt roundabout to 1050ish damage or so. If she had tagged him with her E, that's 6% of his maximum health, from the three procs off of her one auto and two Q hits. Assuming he has 2000 health, that's dealing 120 additional damage. So she's dealing about 1200 damage altogether in a single second of combat, not accounting for a Hydra active or a BotRK active as that isn't inherent to her kit, and he would have access to the same for his own combo.

Lee Sin, on the other hand Qs her once, and as she lands on him he uses both of his autos that are hitting faster from his passive. So that's two autos, so about 600 damage, and then a Q dealing 170 base damage and 90% of his bonus AD, so about 320 damage. So off of one spell cast and two autos he's dealt about 1000 damage. At this point Shyvana has used all of her available spells and is reduced to using auto attacks for the next four seconds or so while her Q comes back up. So while she's hitting him for another 300 damage for an auto about once a second, and another 140 damage per second from her W being on for another second, she's brought the total damage done in two seconds to about 1500 damage. 1540 from the E mark proccing.

Lee Sin hits his E once, dealing 200 base damage and 350 bonus damage, and his next two autos happen in the same amount of time as Shyvana takes to hit one and get another ready. So in the same two seconds of combat that Shyvana has dealt 1500ish damage to Lee Sin, the Lee has added another 600ish to the 1000 he dealt the moment before off of just an ability cast, bringing him up to 1600ish, and his next two autos go through during the time Shyv tags him with one.

In two seconds of combat, an equally built Lee Sin has dealt 2200ish damage while the Shyvana has dealt only about 1500 damage. And even if the fight were to last another second, bringing Shyvana to the point where she might be able to kill him due to adding on another 140 magic damage from W, another 300 damage from an auto attack, and another 40 damage from the E proc (making her total damage done about 1980ish damage), Lee Sin still has his ult. He hits R, and deals a flat 600 damage plus another 700 from the scaling. Three seconds of combat, two very different totals. Shyvana clocks in at about 2000ish, while Lee Sin is weighing in with a total of 3500 damage.

Lee Sin does not actually get outscaled in the late game. He simply stops building damage so appears to be outscaled when he actually has superior damage scaling.

Dreadlocks1 votes

Thanks for your input.. Although I think hydra on Lee in the jungle is bad.. I'm also going to point out that shyvana does more ap DMG ... Where as Lee sin does more AD.. I know her q and w scale on AD but I still think a shyvana would win a head on fight with these conditions.. Lee sin has good scalings on his r and q but the thing that makes his DMG stand out is the % damage on his 2nd Q.. With some tweaks of removing this i can easily see his damage being considerably less.. However as stated I hardly feel his DMG is a huge issue.. Given his reason for being picked competitively.. High early game DMG Cuz of his 2nd Q having %8 missing HP as DMG. And his ability to tank up mid game when his team starts needing him.

Cale0171 votes

I wasn't saying to build Hydra, just using it as an example since it's a high AD item.

You're actually wrong on that point. Shyvana's AP scalings are awful. If you meant that she's doing more magic damage, that's debatable. Not counting for her E's marks being consumed, just looking at her main source of magic damage in her W, it maxes out at 560+140% of bonus AD. This has to be applied over 7 full seconds as well.

Lee Sin's E is dealing 200+100% bonus AD in one burst. So once again, while yes over time Shyvana will deal more magic damage, a Lee Sin isn't going to let her live long enough.

Trying to say that his Q's % damage is what makes him stand out is just inaccurate considering that his ult will deal a BASE of 600 damage. That's before scalings have even been taken into account. A 300 AD Lee Sin could Q a Shyvana, ult her away, and then finish the Q to deal 2080 damage before even factoring in for the 8% of her missing health after the first Q and the ult. If Shyvana's been building nothing but damage as well, she just lost that fight. And that's if Lee Sin doesn't Q E R Q instead, adding in another 500 damage on top of the rest of the 2080 damage he could do from just Q R Q.

And all long before Shyvana's magic damage would have reached it's peak from standing in her W too long.

Dreadlocks1 votes

Yes I meant dealing magic damage.. If u play shyvana ud know at the end game screen her ad DMG is men but her ap damage is quite strong... I think ur argument falls too much into burst vs dot...

Cale0171 votes

I don't just play Shyvana, she was my first main.

Once again, she isn't dealing AP damage. She's dealing magic damage. There's a difference between the two. AP is the scaling used for two of her abilities, but magic is the damage being dealt by her main source of damage in her W. Her AP damage is actually awful, as her E has a pretty solidly meh AP scaling and her ult's isn't that much better.

Of course it's burst vs DoT, that's what a battle of Shyvana v Lee Sin comes down to. And a Shyvana v a Lee Sin when both of them have equal amounts of AD, the Lee Sin can deal much higher damage much faster than she can. It's why when equally built he technically outscales her, which is my entire point.

Dreadlocks1 votes

So are u suggesting lee sins damage get gutted and buff his utility... Something has to go.. And from my experience and opinion his W is a huge reason why he's still good. Not giving too much credit to high lvl game announcers but they would tend to agree... His sustain is really good compared to most gank like champs

Cale0171 votes

His W is a very meh sustain early on, as he isn't dealing enough damage to really gain a lot of health back from it and the shield is about as good as a Diana's is. Probably a bit worse, I'm not too clear on the numbers and I'm too tired to look it up right now lol.

Yes, what I'm suggesting is that his early numbers be pulled back a bit. The scaling on his Q can pretty easily be toned down to .7 bonus AD, giving it a total of 1.4 bonus AD, perhaps reducing his ult's scaling to 1.5 or even 1.0 bonus AD, and during the early game it would keep his high damage output at a solid level while making Lee Sins have to choose between letting their damage fall off by itemizing for late game and building tank after their damage item, or by risking a race to finish the game by minute 30 with stacking AD to keep their power curve strong through the mid game.

See, the issue with using bonus AD for ability scalings is that it's actually meant to provide stronger late game potential while making their early games weak. It's supposed to be a tradeoff, think about Riven. She used to run off of flat AD for her Qs, but they changed it to bonus AD to reduce the power of her early game in exchange for keeping her late game strong.

A champion using bonus scalings should not have a strong early game, because those scalings become easy to abuse when going into the late game should they continue to stack damage. A better solution is to reduce the scaling ratio and make it flat AD, so as the game goes longer it eventually starts falling off as while you're still getting more damage when you build an item you aren't getting more than what the item actually gets.

Mathematically it would look like this:

Lee Sin builds a Hydra. Right now his Q is giving him a total of 180% of the bonus AD he has, so about 160 damage from the Hydra off his scaling on top of his base damage.

By changing that to flat AD and reducing the damage, that changes to only about 110 AD or so coming from the Hydra. He's still dealing a large amount of damage for the early game off of just his scalings, not even taking into account the base damage. But as he goes into the late game this scaling isn't increasing his damage in AD scaling by almost double what he's actually buying.

Ratios that high are essentially like saying that he's, for all intents and purposes, got twice the Hydras that someone else has when he hits them with his Q.

Dreadlocks1 votes

Not a bad idea... But if u nerf the scaling the per lvl should be increased IMO... The w shield isn't the issue so much as spell vamp on smite for lee sin... But overall I like your point here more than ur others :)

Cale0171 votes

His spell vamp and life steal early on are only 5%. Considering that his autos are dealing maybe 70ish damage at level 2, when he would have his W available, he's only healing 3 health per hit. His Q at level 1 deals about 100 base damage, and if you took AD runes you probably have maybe 10ish bonus AD, so another 19 damage. 5% of 120 damage is only 6, so his full Q combo is healing for only 6 health. It's enough sustain to keep him healthy in the jungle for a bit longer, but it's a far cry from Warwick's sustain. The only reason it looks like he's sustaining so much is because he's killing camps considerably faster than a Warwick would, so he's taking less damage overall while healing much less.

Which, again, means that if you nerf his Q, you reduce his ability to clear camps, which will make him take more damage. Even with his early sustain he's going to have to work a little bit harder, and probably back a few more times instead of being able to gank so much because he's manaless and is keeping his health high from dealing so much damage to monster camps faster than they can do it to him.

Sire Hippington1 votes

The problem with leesin is not that much the sustain, more the mobillity+early damage that allows him to be incredible strong at ganks, counterganks and even counterjungleing while havinging mobillity and utillity in the lategame if played well.

I think there are two options

Either switch his damage from early to late, like a scaling total ad-ratio on Q and E and evt even R, so his early clearspeed and ganking isn't as string, but his late becomes great

Or remove the wardhop, really, it's the most problematic part of his kit as it removes all theoretical tradeoffs and weaknesses that lee got in his kit. In theory, all his mobillity is bound to conditions, Q is a skillshot u have to laned, W needs a nearby ally. The huge utillity in his ult requiers positioning which requiers Q+W having the right conditions, E is atleast short ranged, so u again rely on hitting the Q or haveing an ally at the right spot for W. But with wardhops, a skilled player can bypass all of this, he can Q on a minion then wardstep and then apply the E for a slow, or if the enemy pushed out a bit to far, wardsetp->E->Q from close distance on a slowed target, makeing ganks really easy. If he gets cought out off position, he would normaly requier something to Q on, or an ally, but with a ward everything is fine for him. If he wants to get the enemy carry out of position, he would either need an ally behind that carry so he can use W, or slow the carry so he can walk behind him and usually the Q to get close in the first place. With a ward, he only needs to land Q on the carry, or an enemy near the carry.

Leesin was meant to be a high risk, high reward champ, that falls of later as it becomes incredible difficult to make plays in the late with him. But with wardsteps, he's extremly save and strong in all he's doing early on, while still having very potent playmakeing potetial in the late. Utillizing wardsteps does increase his already rather high skillcap even more, so his performance i lower elos is pretty lacking, while his impact in high elo and pro-play is massive

also, ur change to W would make the second activasion awfully weak, and with buffed numbers it would increase his snowballing alot. Most leesins will max Q, so W stays rank 1 in the early, which is 40shield +5%vamp, not really massive sustain here...

Dreadlocks1 votes

Thanks for the untrolly post. This guy is going to be a rough one to "fix" he has a negative win rate at every rank division ... But still strong competitively. Perhaps hes not as broken as everyone makes him out to be but rather hate the champ for his unique kit. I don't know but as stated he isnt putting up rammus or warwick win rates even at a diamond/challenger level

Drunk Rummate1 votes

reduce range on Q reduce range on W

too much mobility at no cost.

lets compare to riven, another champ with very high mobility riven has 4 gap closers. Q has 265 range. Every time she uses and it doesn't contact her opponent it costs her a big chunk of damage. E has 325 range. The shield duration is 1.5 seconds.
Total mobility is 1105 range over 4 ability casts.

lee sin : 2 gap closers. Q has 1100 range with a 3 second followup choice that has 1300 range. he loses no damage for gapclosing. W has 700 range with a 2 second shield. Total mobility is 2000 range over 2 ability casts, the shield lasts longer and he loses no damage for gap closing

So his mobility is larger in total distance, and it comes out faster since it's 2 abilities (3 if you count second Q activation) rather than 4. A Riven can EQQQ from max range but at least you see her coming and it costs her damage to get close. Lee sin just flies in from nowhere at mach 10 because he landed 'muh skillshot' at no cost to his damage output.

seriously? people complain about riven because she has a ton of mobility. lee sin dwarfs riven's mobility, and it doesn't even cost him damage output to do so

Dreadlocks1 votes

Very solid point on the ground he can cover compared to another mobile champ. My only issue with this point is riven is way more likely to solo the entire enemy team lol.

Drunk Rummate1 votes

{quoted}

Very solid point on the ground he can cover compared to another mobile champ. My only issue with this point is riven is way more likely to solo the entire enemy team lol.

That's true, but I think being fed enough to 1v5 is a different story altogether. That requires getting a really big advantage early on in the game which is entirely dependent on player performance. And even a fed riven is vulnerable to CC and burst combos, since she can't really build excessive defense unlike lee sin =]

Dreadlocks1 votes

Also true.. But nature of the champs r still far apart.. I don't main riven nor do I play her much at all and still got a penta.. At the very least riven will almost always get more double triple or qudra kills than a super fed lee sin. Not to mention riven gets diffensive attributes that scale off her AD (her shield) that is larger than lee sins and still on a very short CD. :)

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