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What if Rengar didn't Initiate from Camo, instead he escaped with it?

Dreadlocks··154 votes·5,018 views

This pertains to my original post here: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/UnsP4Z7r-we-want-rengar-changedfixed-but-we-havnt-given-many-structured-posts-on-how-lets-start

Hear me out, so assassins by class are suppose to have a way out, where divers arn't.

So if Rengar had the ultimate that he did but with about a screens distance of warning and he wasn't stealth or camo when he was running at you, would this be fair? He would have visuals and sounds to show he is ulting of course.

How it would work: Rengar would do what he did before but he be visible the entire time so you could throw out any CC at him that you want/can before he reaches you. After he jumps in, withing x seconds (say 3) Rengar can cast R again to camo Def think the camo duration should be much closer to that of a stealth duration. But also giving Rengar more MS when camo running to a brush.

This kills just about everyone's argument of "Rengar 1 shotting from stealth" and it still gives Rengar a way to jump into a fight when he doesn't have a brush to do so.

1 request i would have is during his ult he has some kind of slow res, because he could never run at an ashe as an example. lol.

Thoughts? 100% more counterplay and 100% has a way out. And if he gets to you, he sure as hell deserves it this time.

Also, camo because you can still be targeted, it would be pretty bs if he jumped in killed sm1 then just stealthed untargetable and ran away lol. Camo still allows you to CC him if he goes in greedy.

Edit: suggestion from reddit in relation to top comment: "TheJan1tor • 17m I agree. Even if we only get 1 invis I (with a duration based on Trophy count Maybe? And halved duration on assists??) I think it'd be solid"

To add: possibly something like: 0 : .25s 1 : .50s 2 : .75s 3 : 1.0s 4 : 1.25s 5 : 1.5s

Of invis after ulting. (Pressing r within 3s is the example)

This would give rengar a less feast or famine passive tied to his ult and would hurt bruiser rengar due to the ad steroid he has now being removed.

113 Comments

Randomonium39 votes

I'd even go one step further. Have his invisibility be tied to getting a kill/assist. When he ults he gains the ability to leap from great range (not in camo) and if he gets a kill/assist within 5 seconds of leaping he gets invisibility that lasts for say 2 seconds. Once he pops out of invisibility if he gets another kill/assist within 5 seconds then he gets another 2 seconds of invisibility (etc etc etc.) This would make him a true hunter appearing out of nowhere to slay an enemy only to retreat back into the shadows to hunt his next victim.

2 seconds might be too powerful but I think you get the idea. His ult should make him feel like he's stalking you. Additionally, they should make it so while he's invisible the closest person to him has the mark above their head so people have a general idea where he is but they don't know exactly where.

Dreadlocks9 votes

My only issue is this might be a little too close to khazix but I appreciate the ferdback sir! =)

Malady2 votes

I actually feel like 2 seconds would be fine. someone else in the comments said the issue with the invis would be that he would reposition khaz style and keep fighting but with this idea i think it'd be pretty sick. He could use the invis to get out, or reposition for another go, but its not so long that he could just stand there and wait for someone to get low. 2 seconds is just long enough for him to take out someone from one angle, and real quick come back in from another. As long as he doesnt just completely face melt someone i think it would be pretty cool.

Salson10 votes

Now this is neat. High value for both counterplay and reward.

Though I'd keep the camo and remove the crit instead.

PokladnicaZla5 votes

As someone who really dislikes Rengo,this thread and your comment seems like step in the right direction.

Dreadlocks2 votes

right-on brutha. I honestly like hearing from the guys on the dark side ;)

PokladnicaZla3 votes

Let's call it the grey area XD

Mogarl2 votes

I think this would give him too much overlap with Kha'zix. In addition with that kind of change he would be staying in the fight, which also means that this would be a huge waste of his power budget if he couldn't sustain through that. Then Rengar would be some weird Skirmisher Diver hybrid.

junglerboy162 votes

Honestly though, making him more like a bursty skirmisher/slayer hybrid ties in more strongly to his thematic in the first place, since many hunters focus more on setting up a hunt and then tracking prey that they've already injured to kill at a safer opportunity (especially so for very large or dangerous prey, like big game or hunting other predators).

He definitely shouldn't be a diver, since that's kind of the opposite of his thematic (divers go in and stay in, Rengar should be going in, getting out, and then going back in as necessary), but being a skirmisher hybrid would actually fit him better overall.

Mogarl2 votes

I more or less agree. Moving him more into skirmisher territory still works very well with his thematic while offering more opportunity to balance out his fury. I think they tried to do that with his roar changes in the update but it fell flat because he still insta-bursted people from stealth. Personally I believe Rengar should continue down his path to join Ryze and Skarner because maybe, just maybe, Riot might do it right this time.

junglerboy162 votes

I think the biggest failing of Rengar's rework is they didn't go far enough, leaving it just as broken as before, but taking it away from a spot where people were familiar and liked it without fully departing from his former identity in the necessary ways.

ReZisT Lust1 votes

What if he set up traps. Similar to teemo but less frequent, and if hes within a certain range of theem when they go off he gains ms and invisibility to them scaling with distance procced less for closer and a lil longer for further.

junglerboy162 votes

I only see that working if he still can't leap from stealth from any of those, otherwise that's busted.

Terchio2 votes

I do like this a lot. I fear it'll leave the rest of his kit unbalanceable, because he'd function like Kat, but with no true ultimate to sap his power off cd. Kat has the power to assassinate early, but is generally manageable after ult is on cd. Rengo, on the other hand, is just getting started.

I would like to see some iteration similar to this, though.

Sraeg20131 votes

All I have to say about this idea...

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m91nx4HSIk1reo772o1_500.gif https://img-comment-fun.9cache.com/media/aLDQ8v/a0mWEKk7_700wa_0.gif

ReZisT Lust1 votes

Rengar not yorick.

Sraeg20131 votes

The movie is "Predator". That used to be Sion's quote. http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/lucy-disappointed.gif

ReZisT Lust1 votes

I know, I was being racist towards the undead since they all look alike. sion used to sound like Arnold too. which is why sion needs a omega squad like skin with a similar voice and recall with a helicopter whilce saying it.

Sraeg20131 votes

http://i.imgur.com/QQljflW.jpg?b

ReZisT Lust1 votes

false on the inside I'm marrow and even inner then that I'm a bunch of tiny things which may or may not be a certain color

Sraeg20131 votes

http://i.imgur.com/j4xOBIM.png?b

Brain Errör 4048 votes

Actually not a bad idea. However, I'm not sure about how good a camo would be to get away with after jumping in a teamfight. If it lasts 3/4/5 seconds of invisibility rather than Camo, it'd be much better. Assassins have a way to get out. Camo isn't a way out. It's not even helpful if people can see if you just jumped in. It'd be a flawed gimmick that's just there for the sake of being there, and I'm sure people are getting tired of forced gimmicks.

Dreadlocks2 votes

Thats kind of the point though, it makes rengar have to be more cautious of when he jumps in, assassins dont typically initiate. And giving him basically a free way out after blowing someone up is more so gimicky. This lets riot give him his damage, but also making his ult fair for both sides.

Either one is worth testing though.

Brain Errör 4042 votes

Yeah. I'd say if they think about it implementing it, or went through with this, then they should test both out. While invisibility is "gimmicky" it isn't unnecessarily gimmicky. Rengar and Kha are 2 sides of the same coin. I wanna see some changes where they don't end up integrated on the same side ya know? Riven and Rengar are my 2 favorite champs. Both of them, as it stands, I don't consider over the top strong. I'm more frustrated than anything playing Rengar because the damage I do, some times, is so unpredictable due to the wonky Q. I really want some changes that makes him feel more to his theme without overlappping champs and give me that same feel I had when playing old rengo.

ChaosThief5 votes

Now there's the start. No more "Hi I'm in your face" into grey screen and hello some form of running away.

Dreadlocks4 votes

Thanks man, see I like to see compromise =) maybe not every rengar player agrees with me, but most of us are willing to admit the flaws of both kits and find something that both sides can be okay with.

Shablagoo3 votes

Ya i mean the old ult was a good escape that ppl didnt really think about, then new ult is ok for escape but not so good. I generally think adding an escape will properly push him into the assassin role so i like it.

Dreadlocks2 votes

Thanks, i do too. It's easier to balance the numbers to a champion around a role when the kit fits that role. So yeah :)

Karakot3 votes

I don't like it, it really makes him to close to kha zix with the "jump in, ult if you need to escape" kind of vibe

Dreadlocks2 votes

U have a better suggestion that keeps him an assassin and gives him a way out? Cause if you do i'd love to hear it :)

Karakot2 votes

I never said I had a better idea, I just provided a reason to why I didn't like it and answered. Idk why youre trying to make me look like a bad person for disliking your idea.

Dreadlocks4 votes

No, i'm encouraging you to use your brain to help find something better instead of just saying my idea is bad. Engaging with other people in the comments can lead to new ideas. Maybe you say something i find interesting, i don't totally agree with it, but i take that info and come up with another idea that uses parts of your suggestion.

It's not being a jerk, it's being constructive.

kargish3 votes

This seems to be one hell of a good idea really, I'd love to play around with this kind of mechanic. Personally I think you could make it even more interesting, by giving the Rengar player another opportunity to play the situation into his hand, if you allow him full invisibility when he goes through brush during the ult. It'll be a very short amount of time he's stealthed, but it can make a huge difference for the playmaker.

MsKatlyn2 votes

"Rengar was a negative win rate champion that was toxic to play against"

This quote RIGHT FUCKING HERE is what has triggered me into doing this really long as reply. Check the winrate of the players who are dedicated, not the average pleb. New Rengar has a higher skill floor and a higher skill ceiling. It is only natural that the new people will be fucked over. Think of it like a wild, orphaned Lion cub trying to learn how to hunt on his own. That is what is happening atm. Us experienced ones aren't doing our best to help the younglings. I am not doing my part anymore with the Guide, infact it's about to be deleted as I've already stated due to it being a passion project which I no longer have a passion for. mostly because of his one-shot which lacked counterplay.

All I've basically head from your paragraph is you complaining about "busted" champions and "Rengar has no counterplay" "I'm playing a cancerous, "takes no skill to play" "terrible design"

There shouldn't be a step backwards, there should be a step forward. Reinvent the kit, scrap everything and make a cohesive kit which expands the hunt on a multitude of levels. Promote ambushing, promote stalking, give him that Assassin niche of finding picks which others can, but make him only be able to have this pick potential if he is ahead. Do not give him the uppertunity to be reacting, make it so he has to think ahead and be proactive. Promote a Master hunter mindset. Learn from history, do not repeat it. Keep the core. Keep the leap. Keep the ferocity with a minor tweak or two. But for the love of god, do not repeat the same problems old Rengar had.

Did Riot do any of that? No, they made him more broken and unhealthy, then they basically gutted Rengar, he had spotlight in the start of Season 7, but now YOU RARELY see him.

The oneshot had counterplay but that was in champion select and in game. Quick reactions was needed. Moving in two was needed. Going on your own was suicide.

The counterplay however was always conditional. (Based on your own movement and Rengar's aswell for the reaction time but we'll go deeper into that later.) When the marksman season hit with preseason 6, Rengar tore heads off one after another due to the abundance of easy kills.

Season was 3 when this "1 shot" came to life. "But you needed to use 2 spells and one item before while midair!" Your W was useless in the damage, the only important ones was E and tiamat. Tiamat had a slight casttime while the old Bola before 6.2 had no cast time. And any fucking boosted monkey could learn that combo sequence. Even I could. That should say something. He hasn't gotten easier on the oneshot. He has always been that easy. And let me put it like this. Having a oneshot is OKAY. Having a oneshot is OKAY if it's conditional and not ALWAYS available. See it like ´needing to get the enemy into X or Y and then assblast them. That is perfectly fine. When it is always available on a X cooldown, then there is a problem. As long as the opponent can try SOMETHING to work against it, it is fine. See it like Poppy dealing tons of damage if she get's a wallslam. Or Gangplank if he get's his crit barrels onto you. Or Mordekaiser if he get's three Q's onto you.

I've been playing this champion ever since August 23, 2012, 2 days after his release, when his bola was a click shot and his jumps were buggy.

This champion requires skill, I have a 55% win rate 77 games 2:89 KDA with a 44 win rate champion in all elos. You think me leaping in will always guarantee a kill? Fuck no, you're delusional. I have to actually manage my leaps and time them in the early game, in my elo (Which is plat) You can't just leap in and expect a kill, you have to have perfect timing and right comboing. I'm trying to reason a solution with his design, not make what old issues he had.

Dreadlocks1 votes

I read everything, is ur point mostly focused to him needing a complete overhaul or mostly just voicing your knowledge?

MsKatlyn1 votes

If Riot really wants to fix this champion and make him "non- toxic" and having a "cancerous enviroment" just redesign him, Im just tired of seeing all these plebs complain about him, this rework obv didn't work and the old Rengar isn't working, so why don't we just make a whole completely new deisign?

Dreadlocks2 votes

Because Rengar's Passive is fucking addicting as hell?

kargish2 votes

Want a skillful design? Take in this idea right here that OP suggested. Successful hunts will grant you amazing plays, while approaching that kind of play will be a lot harder.

SzGamer2271 votes

Then he'd be a completely different champion...

Dreadlocks2 votes

Not necessarily. It would def be "different" but this 1 shot from stealth thing seems to be holding back a lot of potential.. Esp in regards to being an assassin. They could easily keep him as a diver and balance his kit around that.. I don't approve =\

SzGamer2271 votes

Completely changing the purpose of a champion's ultimate has a huge impact onto their identity. Rengar is the knifecat who hunts down targets from stealth. Take that away and what is he?

Dreadlocks5 votes

A Swimmer.

Doozku1 votes

I think that 3 seconds before you can stealth might be too much. But it is really hard to tell with this balance things because there's no way to test this.

The big problem that I have with this is thematics. Rengar is known as a hunter, but he's not magic. All of his spells are tools that he uses in the hunt. His stealth fits thematically, because it doesn't feel like Rengar just vanished out of mid-air. It feels like he's coming for you, and that he's stalking his pray. That's why I feel like him using invisibility to escape is not really thematically fitting. Rengar isn't a magician, and he shouldn't just disappear into thin air. I feel like a spell where he just stealths after he ults would not fit him. Maybe a play dirty ability where Rengar stabs the eye of his target, giving him movement speed to get out? Or maybe once he gets his kill on the marked target he gains some cc resistance or a heal so that he can get out? Idk it is difficult to come up with good escapes that fit thematically with a rough and tough fighter/assassin champion like Rengar. Maybe he shouldn't even have an escape at all? What's wrong with him being a hybrid diver? Nocturne is considered an assassin, and I don't see Rengar as the kind of champion to run from fights, even if its a losing one.

Dreadlocks2 votes

Nocturne shouldn't be on the assassin list. At least not yet. And it does fit his theme quite well actually. After he hunts, he either goes for 2nds or he enjoys the kill he got w.o needing to go for more. If Rengar's hunt is successful then he's done his job. He's stalked his prey and hes gotten out before someone can strike back. If Rengar is kept as a go in, but cant get out champion.. He will not be an assassin which means, this clunky kit is likely here to stay.

EpicMusic1 votes

How about his ult becomes a passive:

Turn invis and gain movement speed when you get a kill or assist. lol

Dreadlocks2 votes

Would be awful if im being honest.. Rengar needs a good way into a fight esp when brushes arnt around..

EpicMusic1 votes

i mean besides what op said.

active: movement speed buff, free jump. passive: upon killing an enemy champion(assist), rengo will be granted invisibility.

Dreadlocks1 votes

I added something like that to the OP lol =) check the edited part at the bottom.

EpicMusic1 votes

oh damn you are the op lol mb

Dreadlocks1 votes

Lol =)

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