Can we rammus hecarims E?
in other words, if he gets interrupted in any way it falls off
35 Comments
hhaavviikk4 votesI'd rather we revert rammus Q being a channel, feels so bad when playing him
Xavanic1 votesI'd rather we revert rammus Q being a channel, feels so bad when playing him
Eh, it's a balancing factor, a 300% movespeed rammus running at you from the brush has little to no reaction time, if the channel is taken away he can build QSS to make essentially inescapable ganks from just outside tower range, and with how the meta is, 1 successful gank = you lost your tower and your laner is up 1000+ gold
LTK KoRo2 voteshe can build QSS to make essentially inescapable ganks
well you can too build qss and make rammus ganks useless, without his taunt he isn't even a champion
Thefrostyviking1 votesAnd the mages&supports should do what exactly when faced with a rammus? Or those AD who cant fit QSS into their builds?
LTK KoRo2 votesOP stated that rammus can buy qss. If Rammus can buy qss, then fucking everyone can
Thefrostyviking1 votes[sg-zephyr]
,,,,,,,,I shall quietly take my leave and pretend i was never here.
Xavanic1 votes[{quoted}](name=LTK KoRo,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yclmRFu8,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-11T14:45:26.759+0000)
OP stated that rammus can buy qss. If Rammus can buy qss, then fucking everyone can
HE CANT, FFS, THATS WHY IS Q IS A CHANNEL, IF HE GETS CC'D THAT'S IT, HIS Q IS CANCELLED, THIS IS WHAT I WANT TO DO TO HEC, NOTHING MORE
Jamaree2 votesSure, but it would need three times the speed, a third of it's current CD, or close to it, AoE functionality, a higher damage scaling ratio, as well as need to last 2 seconds longer.
Xavanic1 votesSure, but it would need three times the speed, a third of it's current CD, or close to it, AoE functionality, a higher damage scaling ratio, as well as need to last 2 seconds longer.
it already one shots most squishies, moves faster then rammus Q and has massive knockback, it needs nerfs to begin with, then let's not forget his powerful sustained dmg, something rammus doesn't have, plus he has ANOTHER long range dash, im not asking for him to move slower or nerf his dmg, im just asking for more counteplay outside of survive his burst
Jamaree3 votesmoves faster then rammus Q
No it doesn't, it is in fact slower then Rammus's
Hecarim: Hecarim is temporarily Ghost ghosted and gains Movement speed icon bonus movement speed for 4 seconds, beginning at 25% and increasing to 75% over 3 seconds.
Rammus: Rammus tucks into a ball and begins to roll, Channeling iconchanneling for up to 6 seconds, gaining 25% − 39.17% (based on level) Movement speed icon bonus movement speed per second over the duration, up to a maximum of 150% − 235% (based on level) Movement speed icon bonus movement speed.
and has massive knockback
And Rammus's has AoE knockback.
it needs nerfs to begin with, then let's not forget his powerful sustained dmg, something rammus doesn't have, plus he has ANOTHER long range dash, im not asking for him to move slower or nerf his dmg, im just asking for more counteplay outside of survive his burst
And all I'm asking for is for people to not be bias when comparing skills and conveniently not listing the upside one ability has over another.
Xavanic1 votesNo it doesn't, it is in fact slower then Rammus's
Hecarim: Hecarim is temporarily Ghost ghosted and gains Movement speed icon bonus movement speed for 4 seconds, beginning at 25% and increasing to 75% over 3 seconds.
Rammus: Rammus tucks into a ball and begins to roll, Channeling iconchanneling for up to 6 seconds, gaining 25% − 39.17% (based on level) Movement speed icon bonus movement speed per second over the duration, up to a maximum of 150% − 235% (based on level) Movement speed icon bonus movement speed.
And Rammus's has AoE knockback.
And all I'm asking for is for people to not be bias when comparing skills and conveniently not listing the upside one ability has over another.
Okay, but having a AOE tristana ult on hecarim is not exactly what i would say is balanced, the AoE on rammus Q is so insignificant that you will RARELY hit more then 1 champ as they literally need to be on top of each other, if ones slightly behind the other, you don't hit them, and while i was wrong about the speed, clearly heca has lots of ways to gain speed since both ghost and predator are a thing, hecarim does universally well rn, so much so that he needs to be put in his place, I have yet to see him do badly due to his overwhelming presence of being a tank, brusier and assassin all at the same time, his E is the most problematic thing rn and has little to no counterplay outside of survive his burst or buy stopwatch, thats NOT healthy, having to spend 600 gold every time i got back just to buy a stopwatch is not okay, and let's not forget his displacement, being able to force a player out from under there tower with ease is already fairly toxic, the only upside to champs like lee though is they can only do it so often, but hecarim can do it every 15-20 seconds, i could have said just nerf tri force to a 3-5 second cd or remove the CDR buff on his Q but tbh, nerfing his consistent dmg won't solve the problem, giving more counterplay to his E however will, this is his main problem and why he does so well, carries can't respond to him diving simply because he does too well, even VI's diving isn't as impactful as his is and that's literally all she does...another option would be to turn his E into a mini kled ult instead but that would be a lot more of a nerf
Pierce The Veal4 votesHard to take you seriously when you don’t even realize Tristana ult is AOE.
“Active: Tristana fires a massive cannonball at the target enemy, dealing magic damage and knocking back the target and all enemies around them.”
While knocking back 600/800/1000 units as opposed to hecarim’s 250-450. While Hecarim has a maximum 330 base damage (minimum 165) at max rank as opposed to Tristana’s 500.
Hecarim runs predator and literally optimizes his itemization around his E. More often than not, until he gets to ridiculous movespeeds, the reason carries are getting instagibbed is because the carries were out of position or playing badly.
If he’s building to one shot you, the unfortunate thing is he rapidly switches over to getting one shot by the sheer bs damage that carries get. But that’s ok. Because unavoidable right click damage/huge aoe spells that are practically unavoidable are ok from range, but if a melee does the same thing that’s terrible and needs nerfing.
Spooks and Null8 votesBecause unavoidable right click damage/huge aoe spells that are practically unavoidable are ok from range, but if a melee does the same thing that’s terrible and needs nerfing.
Thank CHRIST someone said it.
God it's so unfair that I, a caitlyn, can't 1v1 a jax at melee range after i use my gapcloser aggressively and fail to kite him whilst he wails on me. I should be able to permanently kite him while he struggles to even be relevant even after tailoring his build to specifically take me down, because anything that interferes with ADC being an unkillable omnipotent role is absolutely broken and needs to be removed. It is ludicrusly unfair that I, a marksman, the most powerful and important class in the game, can actually lose in a 1v1 situation to a champion who is specifically tailoring their playstyle or champion selection to kill me /s
Pierce The Veal3 votesThank CHRIST someone said it.
God it's so unfair that I, a caitlyn, can't 1v1 a jax at melee range after i use my gapcloser aggressively and fail to kite him whilst he wails on me. I should be able to permanently kite him while he struggles to even be relevant even after tailoring his build to specifically take me down, because anything that interferes with ADC being an unkillable omnipotent role is absolutely broken and needs to be removed. It is ludicrusly unfair that I, a marksman, the most powerful and important class in the game, can actually lose in a 1v1 situation to a champion who is specifically tailoring their playstyle or champion selection to kill me /s
The double standard has driven me crazy for years. It does feel as well that after ghostcrawler joined the balance team that ranged champions have been treated and balanced as higher skill champions (in fact I remember him saying something to this effect), when the reality is having extra range is just outright more power/more damage. Melees have to have the most ridiculous features for them to even come close to as powerful, see pre-nerf irelia, jax, pre-nerf fiora, yasuo.
They literally decided for the assassin rework that assassins dealt too much damage (all of them aside for leblanc were conveniently melee, and didn’t do nearly as ridiculous damage as one infinity edge crit at the time) so they crippled the class that dared counter carries and then rebalanced them around using gimmicks, which is how assassins are played to this day.
It’s stat checking if a melee mashes buttons in a specific timed order and wins (see old akali), but kai’sa/any other ranged carry right clicking you down is skilled gameplay.
I’m saying this as someone who actually plays both ranged and melee champions; the bias is awful.
Spooks and Null1 votesGhostcrawler worked on WoW. He thought the melee classes were all broken and overpowered for the game's pvp. He introduced kiting mechanics, and saw kiting as the most skilled thing a player can do.
There's your dirt on Ghosty.
Pierce The Veal1 votesYep. Classic ghostcrawler. Being melee has less skill expression and therefore melees should always be weaker than ranged champions amirite.
Xavanic1 votes[{quoted}](name=Pierce The Veal,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yclmRFu8,comment-id=000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-18T09:59:40.819+0000)
Yep. Classic ghostcrawler. Being melee has less skill expression and therefore melees should always be weaker than ranged champions amirite.
actually i despise ranged champs with a passion, if i could i would set them all to 0 AD, i just feel hec is overtuned rn
Pierce The Veal1 votesI will agree he is strong, but his entire strength relies on a gimmick. His actualy kit isn’t broken or actually even strong, the issue is triforce predator + hecarim passive.
Spooks and Null2 votesThats why we need to revert Azir to his release state, hes difficult therefore it's ok /s This post made by both a ranged hater and an M7 Azir.
Pierce The Veal1 votesIt’s really sad what they did to azir. The changes didn’t make him less annoying against melee, they only made it so that range point clicker adcs can one or two tap him.
Xavanic1 votesThank CHRIST someone said it.
God it's so unfair that I, a caitlyn, can't 1v1 a jax at melee range after i use my gapcloser aggressively and fail to kite him whilst he wails on me. I should be able to permanently kite him while he struggles to even be relevant even after tailoring his build to specifically take me down, because anything that interferes with ADC being an unkillable omnipotent role is absolutely broken and needs to be removed. It is ludicrusly unfair that I, a marksman, the most powerful and important class in the game, can actually lose in a 1v1 situation to a champion who is specifically tailoring their playstyle or champion selection to kill me /s
Giving hecarim his ult on his E doesn't seem like a good idea imo, and no, right click huge dmg aoe spells that are unavoidable on anyone is bad, but i cant think of a range carry with this. outside of brand
Xavanic1 votesThank CHRIST someone said it.
God it's so unfair that I, a caitlyn, can't 1v1 a jax at melee range after i use my gapcloser aggressively and fail to kite him whilst he wails on me. I should be able to permanently kite him while he struggles to even be relevant even after tailoring his build to specifically take me down, because anything that interferes with ADC being an unkillable omnipotent role is absolutely broken and needs to be removed. It is ludicrusly unfair that I, a marksman, the most powerful and important class in the game, can actually lose in a 1v1 situation to a champion who is specifically tailoring their playstyle or champion selection to kill me /s
Funny, whenever i point out marksman are fucking busted rn, i get downvoted to oblivion but yet you get upvoted....
Xavanic1 votes[{quoted}](name=Pierce The Veal,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yclmRFu8,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-11T10:44:16.250+0000)
Hard to take you seriously when you don’t even realize Tristana ult is AOE.
“Active: Tristana fires a massive cannonball at the target enemy, dealing magic damage and knocking back the target and all enemies around them.”
While knocking back 600/800/1000 units as opposed to hecarim’s 250-450. While Hecarim has a maximum 330 base damage (minimum 165) at max rank as opposed to Tristana’s 500.
Hecarim runs predator and literally optimizes his itemization around his E. More often than not, until he gets to ridiculous movespeeds, the reason carries are getting instagibbed is because the carries were out of position or playing badly.
If he’s building to one shot you, the unfortunate thing is he rapidly switches over to getting one shot by the sheer bs damage that carries get. But that’s ok. Because unavoidable right click damage/huge aoe spells that are practically unavoidable are ok from range, but if a melee does the same thing that’s terrible and needs nerfing.
okay, well seems a little unbalanced turning tristanas ult into a basic ability on hecarim, i literally have never played trist, also he only needs 1 dmg item to one shot you....dunno what part of that you don't understand, he's flying into the middle of the team ,insta gibbing the carry simply because you cant CC him, he just runs Qss and boom, carry dead, hecarim is now tanking since he's built TANK with tri force
Pierce The Veal1 votesokay, well seems a little unbalanced turning tristanas ult into a basic ability on hecarim, i literally have never played trist, also he only needs 1 dmg item to one shot you....dunno what part of that you don't understand, he's flying into the middle of the team ,insta gibbing the carry simply because you cant CC him, he just runs Qss and boom, carry dead, hecarim is now tanking since he's built TANK with tri force
Hecarim doesn’t one shot with just a triforce lmfao. He would need a super early triforce+predator to “one shot” you with it.
You’re asking for his E to be gutted, comparing it to Rammus’s Q which is far faster and aoe, but simultaneously comparing it to Tristana’s ult which is high damage, high range, aoe, and a much larger knockback.
You can’t just ask to gut an ability just because you feel like it. It has its own niche. If you want to not get “one shot” by it, maybe just don’t overextend? Back off when the obvious as heck predator icon pops up?
Jamaree1 votesOkay, but having a AOE tristana ult on hecarim is not exactly what i would say is balanced,
Are we still talking about his charge, but his charge is single target.
the AoE on rammus Q is so insignificant that you will RARELY hit more then 1 champ as they literally need to be on top of each other, if ones slightly behind the other, you don't hit them,
Doesn't matter, you don't get to pick and choose parts when comparing abilities, Hecarim's get less counterplay, but more of everything else except mana cost, you can't just ignore that.
and while i was wrong about the speed, clearly heca has lots of ways to gain speed since both ghost and predator are a thing, hecarim does universally well rn, so much so that he needs to be put in his place, I have yet to see him do badly due to his overwhelming presence of being a tank, brusier and assassin all at the same time, his E is the most problematic thing rn and has little to no counterplay outside of survive his burst or buy stopwatch, thats NOT healthy, having to spend 600 gold every time i got back just to buy a stopwatch is not okay, and let's not forget his displacement, being able to force a player out from under there tower with ease is already fairly toxic, the only upside to champs like lee though is they can only do it so often, but hecarim can do it every 15-20 seconds, i could have said just nerf tri force to a 3-5 second cd or remove the CDR buff on his Q but tbh, nerfing his consistent dmg won't solve the problem, giving more counterplay to his E however will, this is his main problem and why he does so well, carries can't respond to him diving simply because he does too well, even VI's diving isn't as impactful as his is and that's literally all she does...another option would be to turn his E into a mini kled ult instead but that would be a lot more of a nerf
And that is fine, I'm not saying he doesn't need some nerfs here and there, what I am saying is if you want to compare abilities, you need to remove the bias and compare ALL parts of the ability and not just the one to suit your needs.
Xavanic1 votesAre we still talking about his charge, but his charge is single target.
Doesn't matter, you don't get to pick and choose parts when comparing abilities, Hecarim's get less counterplay, but more of everything else except mana cost, you can't just ignore that.
And that is fine, I'm not saying he doesn't need some nerfs here and there, what I am saying is if you want to compare abilities, you need to remove the bias and compare ALL parts of the ability and not just the one to suit your needs.
read what the guy i responded to said about what hecarims E should do if this change was implemented ffs, people just read my post but don't read the one i responded to
true, but you HAVE to factor in the power budget, hecarims E does a lot of things rammus Q can't, specifically he doesn't get stopped by minions, which already makes his E much stronger then Rammus Q, simply asking for CC to remove it doesn't seem unfair in the slightest
Myrmiron1 votesit already one shots most squishies, moves faster then rammus Q and has massive knockback, it needs nerfs to begin with, then let's not forget his powerful sustained dmg, something rammus doesn't have, plus he has ANOTHER long range dash, im not asking for him to move slower or nerf his dmg, im just asking for more counteplay outside of survive his burst
If you think Rammus has no sustained damage you're playing him wrong. Also Rammus is a pretty good pick versus Hecarim because with Rammus around Heca won't ever be able to just dive in and do Heca things.
Xavanic1 votesIf you think Rammus has no sustained damage you're playing him wrong. Also Rammus is a pretty good pick versus Hecarim because with Rammus around Heca won't ever be able to just dive in and do Heca things.
yes he can....everything heca does is easily target and he can run around rammus since rammus gets stopped at the first thing he hits, while heca can just ult into the backline, hit the carry with ult, follow it up with E, Q and 9 times out of 10 the carry is now dead, and rammus has some sustained dmg, but compared to heca, rammus has a lot less
Makarakarn1 votesSure, but it would need three times the speed, a third of it's current CD, or close to it, AoE functionality, a higher damage scaling ratio, as well as need to last 2 seconds longer.
I'm sorry. WHAT? So you're saying it needs to be buffed into the stratosphere purely because it would have actual counterplay?
Jamaree2 votesI'm sorry. WHAT? So you're saying it needs to be buffed into the stratosphere purely because it would have actual counterplay?
Yes, because if you want to compare two abilities that are similar, you need to compare ALL parts of it, not just the ones that suit your needs for the sake of argument, you take all of it, or none of it, not just pieces here and there. Yes, Rammus has more counterplay, in turn, it gets all the things I mentioned compared to Hecarim's, a higher top speed, last longer, AoE function, and shorter CD.
Xavanic1 votesYes, because if you want to compare two abilities that are similar, you need to compare ALL parts of it, not just the ones that suit your needs for the sake of argument, you take all of it, or none of it, not just pieces here and there. Yes, Rammus has more counterplay, in turn, it gets all the things I mentioned compared to Hecarim's, a higher top speed, last longer, AoE function, and shorter CD.
Okay let's compare, Rammus Q stopped by minions, Hec E allows him to move through minions - 1 for hec Rammus Q stops at the first champion hit, Hec E allows him to target any champ he would like - 1 for hec Rammus Q let's him faster then Hec E - 1 for rammus Rammus Q gives a small AoE stun Hec E give a colossal knockback allowing him to throw any champ out of position - 1 for hec Rammus Q does mediocre dmg, Hec E chunks squishies for 40%+ of their health bar - 1 for hec Rammus Q is stopped by CC, Hec E isn't - 1 for hec Rammus Q last 2 seconds longer then Hec E - 1 for rammus Rammus Dmg doesn't scale with movespeed, Hec E does - 1 for hec Rammus Q has a shorter CD then Hec E - 1 for rammus Both Can apply aftershock giving extra bulk
Just look at those comparisons, Rammus Q is already weaker then Hec's E, the problem with hec is a good hec player can solo carry the game and have it won by the 15 min mark regardless of how the enemies play, while rammus relies on champs to overextend, this is why i want hecs E to be given this nerf, he just runs around knocking champs out from under their towers and feeding his laners with zero counterplay to boot, if you want we can compare the rest of their abilites, but i can simplifiy right now, saying hec is overall better then rammus in nearly every way
Jamaree1 votesOkay let's compare,
Again, you are being bias and only picking and choosing the parts that fit your narrative, you are ignoring the strengths that one champion’s ability has to push the point across while using buzz words rather then numbers.
Rammus Q stopped by minions, Hec E allows him to move through minions - 1 for
And because of that, Rammus gets to move nearly three times as fast.
Rammus Q stops at the first champion hit, Hec E allows him to target any champ he would like - 1 for hec
And because of that, Rammus gets to be AoE, again, you can’t discount that.
Rammus Q let's him faster then Hec E - 1 for rammus
Rammus Q gives a small AoE stun Hec E give a colossal knockback allowing him to throw any champ out of position - 1 for hec
What kind of bullshit comparison is this? You do know they have the same knock back time right baseline right, you can’t ignore the fact he has to build his up to do that damage while Rammus doesn’t.
Rammus Q does mediocre dmg, Hec E chunks squishies for 40%+ of their health bar - 1 for hec
Actually the damage isn’t mediocre, it is that he doesn’t have a kit to support him building ap
Rammus Q is stopped by CC, Hec E isn't - 1 for hec
And you need to include every other piece of the kit to see why
Rammus Dmg doesn't scale with movespeed, Hec E does - 1 for hec
You can’t compare like that, at all, Rammus is a tank and Hecarim is a bruiser, of course he does more but that isn’t part of the argument, we are taking about his charge and only his charge
Just look at those comparisons, Rammus Q is already weaker then Hec's E, the problem with hec is a good hec player can solo carry the game and have it won by the 15 min mark regardless of how the enemies play, while rammus relies on champs to overextend, this is why i want hecs E to be given this nerf, he just runs around knocking champs out from under their towers and feeding his laners with zero counterplay to boot, if you want we can compare the rest of their abilites, but i can simplifiy right now, saying hec is overall better then rammus in nearly every way
Except it isn’t a fair comparison, you are showing clear cut bias for one side because you hate it, and your metrics for it are also terrible. You keep pick and choosing strengths here and there, that isn’t a fair comparison, you are saying he deals more damage, of course he does, he’s a bruiser in what world should a tank do more damage then a bruiser and again, not the argument.
You want to compare he abilities compare the abilities of you want to compare both champions them do that, but if you want to pick and choose compared to another then you choose everything not just the things you want.
Xavanic1 votesAgain, you are being bias and only picking and choosing the parts that fit your narrative, you are ignoring the strengths that one champion’s ability has to push the point across while using buzz words rather then numbers.
And because of that, Rammus gets to move nearly three times as fast.
And because of that, Rammus gets to be AoE, again, you can’t discount that.
What kind of bullshit comparison is this? You do know they have the same knock back time right baseline right, you can’t ignore the fact he has to build his up to do that damage while Rammus doesn’t.
Actually the damage isn’t mediocre, it is that he doesn’t have a kit to support him building ap
And you need to include every other piece of the kit to see why
You can’t compare like that, at all, Rammus is a tank and Hecarim is a bruiser, of course he does more but that isn’t part of the argument, we are taking about his charge and only his charge
Except it isn’t a fair comparison, you are showing clear cut bias for one side because you hate it, and your metrics for it are also terrible. You keep pick and choosing strengths here and there, that isn’t a fair comparison, you are saying he deals more damage, of course he does, he’s a bruiser in what world should a tank do more damage then a bruiser and again, not the argument.
You want to compare he abilities compare the abilities of you want to compare both champions them do that, but if you want to pick and choose compared to another then you choose everything not just the things you want.
first of all, hecarim knocks ppl almost as far as lees ult, rammus slightly knocks them back, there is no comparison here, hecarim is clearly better in that department, rammus can use his q for a slight knock back yes, but at the cost of his W which early game makes him drop like a fly, im only using the fact that they typically only use these abilites as an engage, yes rammus can move faster i gave him a point for that, but clearly no matter what i say your going to defend hec by trying to say he's not op, which is fine, adc mains defend their champs saying they need buffs, but clearly there is no further reason to talk to you, i compared complete abilites just like you wanted and your still saying bullshit
Jamaree1 votesfirst of all, hecarim knocks ppl almost as far as lees ult, rammus slightly knocks them back, there is no comparison here,
Except there is, Hecarim can hit one, Rammus has the potential to hit five, yes, it is rare that it will hit more then one, but you can’t ignore the fact that it has the potential to hit more the one whereas hecarim’s can’t.
Hec is clearly better in that department, rammus can use his q for a slight knock back yes, but at the cost of his W which early game makes him drop like a fly, im only using the fact that they typically only use these abilites as an engage
If you are using the argument of it only being used for engage, why Rammus W even factor into this, again, we aren’t talking about his kit as a whole, we are talking about their engage abilities.
yes rammus can move faster i gave him a point for that, but clearly no matter what i say your going to defend hec by trying to say he's not op, which is fine, adc mains defend their champs saying they need buffs, but clearly there is no further reason to talk to you, i compared complete abilites just like you wanted and your still saying bullshit
I didn’t once say in anywhere in this post that I didn’t think Hecarim wasn’t too strong, that has never been my argument. He probably is too strong, the point I’m trying to make is how stupid, unfair, and bias your comparison is as you continue to act like you are being fair when comparing these two abilities.
You keep using nothing but buzzwords, acting like his ability has no downsides, using arguments like well Hecarim does more damage then him, yes once again, he does, because Hecarim is a bruiser and Rammus is a tank, a tank that has to build tank to fully utilize his kit and unlike say Amumu, lacks the ability to build AP to make his Q nuke like it can. Go into a test game, build Rammus AP, and tell me that shit doesn’t chunk.
My point from the very start of this until now remains the same, if you want Hecarim’s charge to have the same downsides as Rammus’s, it needs to be on par with it with a third of the cd, three times the speed, AoE capabilities, and for the charge to last longer.
Velasan1 votesCan we turn Rammus Q into Hecarim E? Nothing like getting interrupted from your engage skill by a Kassadin Q.
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