Why is brand allowed to exist in his current state?

Xavanic·Jun 8, 2019·50 votes·14,661 views

You know, i sat down and started thinking, brand typically does double, if not triple the damage of every other immobile mage, and on top of this, has consistent CC and powerful AoE to boot, add in a % burn on top of rylais/liandrys combo making it worse, then to add injury to insult, his cooldowns aren't exactly all that long with his longest basic CD being 8 seconds, why is he considered balanced? In most situations unless you get a pick on him, he will bring down at least 2 if not more people in a teamfight before you can kill him, and since he has a 2 second stun, killing him isn't exactly easy either

121 Comments

Pandemic PunchJun 8, 201940 votes

Brand is a lot weaker now than he has been in a long while. Despite popular belief, his early game damage is not enough to warrant him being picked anymore compared to healers or a couple enchanters. Landing a 3 rank W only does like 8% of a squishy's health bar of burst damage. Sona is out damaging Brand right now and she can heal, shield, and speed up. Sona can deal about 40% of a squishy's health bar in burst damage with no items. Janna also did more damage with her point and click W before the recent changes.

Late game Brand? Yeah you are right about that. Then the argument becomes, "Does Brand deserve to be this strong if he makes it to late game or gets really fed for some oddball reason?"

ZardoJun 9, 201911 votes

Sona is out damaging Brand right now and she can heal, shield, and speed up. Sona can deal about 40% of a squishy's health bar in burst damage with no items. Janna also did more damage with her point and click W before the recent changes.

You're comparing apples to oranges here. The difference is that when sona or janna walk up to you, you can easily punish them since they have to get in autoattack range to do it. Brand doesn't. Brand can w the adc every time they go to cs and the enemy support can't really do anything to punish it and the AD can't really do anything to avoid it.

I Spread CancerJun 9, 20198 votes

You're right. Sona can auto target Q 825 range without stoping moving. Her AA poke is the same range of brand E. His W poke do have counterplay, support can predict and land a hook as he stop moving to cast W by standing from the side to not get blocked by minion, or shield at the same time or counterpoke. ADC can auto cancel and manage wave to create himself a window of last hit large enough to not get predicted every time. You only need exactly 280 movement speed to move away from the center of his W, this can vary depending on your reaction time and brand own reaction time to reposition his cursor as a reaction to your movement, unless he predict then he outplayed you.

ZardoJun 9, 20191 votes

You're right. Sona can auto target Q 825 range without stoping moving. Her AA poke is the same range of brand E.

Her q with a whopping 40 damage without the AA early. BTW her AA poke is only done via her highly telegraphed passive, since without it she gets very little damage on her next AA.

His W poke do have counterplay, support can predict and land a hook as he stop moving to cast W by standing from the side to not get blocked by minion, or shield at the same time or counterpoke.

I agree with the second part, but not the first. If a support tries to get behind/ to the side of brand he can just nuke them with his entire combo.

ADC can auto cancel and manage wave to create himself a window of last hit large enough to not get predicted every time.

Fair enough, but this also depends heavily on the AD matchup as well.

You only need exactly 280 movement speed to move away from the center of his W

Citation needed.

KuponyaJun 10, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Her q with a whopping 40 damage without the AA early. BTW her AA poke is only done via her highly telegraphed passive, since without it she gets very little damage on her next AA.

I agree with the second part, but not the first. If a support tries to get behind/ to the side of brand he can just nuke them with his entire combo.

Fair enough, but this also depends heavily on the AD matchup as well.

Citation needed.

It's actually over 480 MS required if he targets dead center of your model

I Spread CancerJun 10, 20191 votes

If he can target dead center of your model, you got predicted. The circle appear 0.25 seconde + ping after he pressed W and detonate 0.625 seconde after the circle. In your case he predicted the next 0.25 seconde of your movement. You also need to add brand reaction time to your juke ( he is not likely going to press the dead center of you if you juke well)

KuponyaJun 11, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=l Main Cancer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=co4QiHTZ,comment-id=000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-10T01:25:37.732+0000)

If he can target dead center of your model, you got predicted. The circle appear 0.25 seconde + ping after he pressed W and detonate 0.625 seconde after the circle. In your case he predicted the next 0.25 seconde of your movement. You also need to add brand reaction time to your juke ( he is not likely going to press the dead center of you if you juke well)

No. If he can target dead center of your model, that means you are in full range of the ability, not that you got predicted. The circle appears instantly as he starts to cast, not after 0.25 seconds. He does have a cast time where he is locked in the animation, but the circle appears at the start of the cast, not when the cast time finishes.

I Spread CancerJun 13, 20191 votes

No it appear 0.25 secondes later. He start raising his hand first, then the circle appear. I went into a custom game and watched frame by frame just to make sure of my statement.

MrFawknSunshineJun 8, 201914 votes

isnt his CC conditional based on hitting a target with an ability after his passive is in effect on that target?

MrFawknSunshineJun 8, 20195 votes

yea he has to have his passive on a target then hit with Q to stun, he dont have an actual cc ability

Death by GlamourJun 8, 201911 votes

You mean his point and click e?

MrFawknSunshineJun 8, 20198 votes

no its his Q

Sear TARGET RANGE: 1050 SPEED: 1550 COST: 50 MANA COOLDOWN: 8 / 7.5 / 7 / 6.5 / 6 ACTIVE: Brand launches a fireball in the target direction that deals magic damage to the first enemy it hits.

MAGIC DAMAGE: 80 / 110 / 140 / 170 / 200 (+ 55% AP) Blaze BLAZE: The target is also Stun icon stunned for 1.5 seconds

his E is Pillar of Flame TARGET RANGE: 900 EFFECT RADIUS: 250 COST: 60 / 70 / 80 / 90 / 100 MANA COOLDOWN: 10 / 9.5 / 9 / 8.5 / 8

ACTIVE: After a 0.625-second delay, Brand makes the target area erupt in flames, dealing magic damage to enemies within.

MAGIC DAMAGE: 75 / 120 / 165 / 210 / 255 (+ 60% AP) Blaze BLAZE: Pillar of Flame deals 25% bonus damage.

dont see any cc on his E

Death by GlamourJun 8, 201917 votes

E applies passive which allows q to stun...

MrFawknSunshineJun 8, 20193 votes

still its not his e that has cc

so down vote all you want the cc comes from the passive and landing Q

Death by GlamourJun 8, 20193 votes

No one is saying it was on his e. I simply pointing out that it wasn't that difficult to apply the passive which you were implying.

MrFawknSunshineJun 8, 20192 votes

i never said nor implied it was difficult

im point out he dont have an cc ability such as point and click cc abilities

I Spread CancerJun 9, 20192 votes

It's still a close range spell that give you an extra window to react to the incoming skillshot.

Jerry SeinfeIdJun 8, 201915 votes

[{quoted}](name=Death by Glamour,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=co4QiHTZ,comment-id=0001000100000000,timestamp=2019-06-08T22:48:06.278+0000)

E applies passive which allows q to stun...

yeah ok so how is other CC less reliable? Lux hits Q you're rooted, same for morg, sona is a straight skillshot, karma is a clickon, annie is a click on with similar conditions, janna is a linear skillshot (and click on but that's soft cc), etc...

calling it reliable cc is only trying to make it sound worse than it is. kinda dirty from the op tbh.

XavanicJun 9, 20194 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jerry SeinfeId,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=co4QiHTZ,comment-id=00010001000000000001,timestamp=2019-06-08T23:37:25.570+0000)

yeah ok so how is other CC less reliable? Lux hits Q you're rooted, same for morg, sona is a straight skillshot, karma is a clickon, annie is a click on with similar conditions, janna is a linear skillshot (and click on but that's soft cc), etc...

calling it reliable cc is only trying to make it sound worse than it is. kinda dirty from the op tbh.

never said reliable, just said consistent, as long he's hitting spells, he he has a stun, dont ever twist my words,

CosnirakJun 9, 20195 votes

Reliable is a synonym for consistent...

ThilmerJun 9, 20198 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jerry SeinfeId,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=co4QiHTZ,comment-id=00010001000000000001,timestamp=2019-06-08T23:37:25.570+0000)

yeah ok so how is other CC less reliable? Lux hits Q you're rooted, same for morg, sona is a straight skillshot, karma is a clickon, annie is a click on with similar conditions, janna is a linear skillshot (and click on but that's soft cc), etc...

calling it reliable cc is only trying to make it sound worse than it is. kinda dirty from the op tbh.

A combination of two skills, one of them is a skillshot that can be blocked by minions… reliable CC? Saying that is just absurd.

SpecterVonBarenJun 9, 20192 votes

Good Brand's can do some fun things with Q then immediately E so the Q projectile hits after the instant E but it's indeed hardly "consistent" CC, especially in a big chaotic teamfight, that's when Brand's AOE damage comes in though.

Crispy0SnakeJun 8, 201914 votes

He's paper thin, builds no resists. When you start fighting him back you'll realise he's not as tough as you make out, he also takes a very long time to get to item 3098 item 3020 item 3116 item 3151

So many times I've flashed on Brand after he uses his Q and he gets destroyed, you can even flash over his Q if you need to

If you play an all in tank supp it's important to all in as fast as possible or you'll lose too much hp because your hitbox is just abusable in lane

He also has to play far up in the lane to get his poke off so it's an easy gank for a jungler

XavanicJun 9, 20193 votes

{quoted}

He's paper thin, builds no resists. When you start fighting him back you'll realise he's not as tough as you make out, he also takes a very long time to get to

So many times I've flashed on Brand after he uses his Q and he gets destroyed, you can even flash over his Q if you need to

If you play an all in tank supp it's important to all in as fast as possible or you'll lose too much hp because your hitbox is just abusable in lane

He also has to play far up in the lane to get his poke off so it's an easy gank for a jungler

paper thin? no mage has been paper thin since zhonyas was an item, if it was removed it would be a different story

Crispy0SnakeJun 9, 20194 votes

I've never seen a Brand take stopwatch, let alone build Zhonya's

XavanicJun 9, 20193 votes

{quoted}

I've never seen a Brand take stopwatch, let alone build Zhonya's

if he's taking lots of dmg he does, and still does well, since all he really needs dps wise is rylais and liandary's

I Spread CancerJun 9, 20191 votes

Brand doesn't build rilay for its damage, it's currently bugged on brand and does half the damage it is supposed to do from the synergie with liandry. Also, zhonya is a awful item to rush, if he want tankyness, rilay liandry morello give HP which is his standard build.

FireDrizzleJun 9, 20191 votes

Is this bug fixed by building ludens?

I Spread CancerJun 10, 20192 votes

No, I think it's because of unsychronous tick rate of rilay-liandry, liandry's torment consider the target has impairement movement half of the time. Maybe it's a rilay-liandry bug or the way the passive work, need more testing like malzahar to see if it's only on Brand.

WastedHookerJun 9, 20192 votes

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D357R0Y3RJun 9, 20198 votes

he has FUCKIGN 7.8 AVERAGE DEATH https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/fr/champions/stats/brand

who would think that he isn't easy to kill when every brand players int so hard in every game jfc people trying to elo shame someone who actually knows how to play the game on the boards

3TWarriorJun 9, 20191 votes

well, he is an immobile, high-priority target, though it's odd that his kill average is so low

that being said though, it looks like it might just be hard to figure out his proper builds. Apparently brand has high win rates when he can get sorc boots and kleptomancy procs

Handy Sandy Jun 9, 20192 votes

Because brand isn't a good carry and while he has an easy time putting out damage, he has a hard time actually finishing someone off before they back off.

GallJun 9, 201910 votes

Killing him is statistically easier than any other champion. Highest deathrate champion in the game. Shitty mid lane winrate. Only good in the support role, but if he's in the support role then you don't have that hard engage support, the peel support, or the enchanter support to save your adc. So that brand better be damn good or else he will get flamed all game. The difference between a good brand and a bad one is astronomical. He has absolutely no mobility and is better against comps who build HP due to his passive, which in this meta isn't as powerful as it once was. He has to set up his only stun as well unlike any other champion like Lux or Xerath. His main draw is him teamfight potential. He's incredibly powerful. Overpowered? NO.

Tomoe GozenJun 9, 20192 votes

In my opinion, Brand doesn't have to be good. Unless he's getting his shit kicked in constantly, he can suicide with W and R and do as much damage as possible, also procing his passive as many times as he can for % HP AoE burst.

Rushing Liandry's gives him even more damage as that also applies DoT on top of his own and any CC from him or his allies boosts its effectiveness. Rylai's is just a cherry on top. Brand doesn't really need his full build because his core is just Liandry's.

Sir SaltarinJun 9, 20197 votes

He's fine

MorgManBasherJun 9, 20195 votes

Why are you complaining about Brand when he's a trash champion? Leave this poor mage alone, Jesus Christ. He's already been nerfed to barely playable, stop being bad.

I stopped playing him because he's so terrible right now. My supports atm are Zyra Zilean Bard Gragas Leona Fiddlesticks

I'd rather play Velkoz or Xerath support than Brand right now, he's awful.

D357R0Y3RJun 9, 20193 votes

he's decent

doesn't deserve to have a thread being upvoted for asking brand nerfs tho

SpecterVonBarenJun 9, 20195 votes

{quoted}

You know, i sat down and started thinking, brand typically does double, if not triple the damage of every other immobile mage, and on top of this, has consistent CC

My one gripe with you. He literally has one single target skillshot CC in his kit. Yes, good Brand's can do some fun things like throwing a Q and then E'ing someone so the Q hits after the E does, but let's not pretend that Brand is some kind of CC monster. Brand does one thing really well and that's shit tons of AOE damage.

koshkyraJun 8, 20192 votes

He casts abilities way too fast and if he gets caught it only takes him like 0.3 seconds to get all 4 abilities off which will almost always kill one, if not more, person.

D357R0Y3RJun 9, 20194 votes

all his abilities have 0.25 sec cast time tho xd?

TomiMan7Jun 9, 20193 votes

On top of a .625 second delay on hiw W xd

koshkyraJun 9, 20191 votes

Thats not what i said, thats a cast time.

TomiMan7Jun 9, 20191 votes

He casts abilities way too fast and if he gets caught it only takes him like 0.3 seconds to get all 4 abilities off

You said this. The delay on hiw W is more than 0.3 seconds alone lol. What you said is simply not true.

koshkyraJun 10, 20191 votes

Cast time =/= time it takes for brand to use an ability.

TomiMan7Jun 10, 20191 votes

3*0,25 second cast time + the W delay is nowhere near the 0,3 second you said. Either way, what you said is still not true, no matter how you wanna put it.

koshkyraJun 11, 20191 votes

Again, a cast time is not what i said. Im not reading your next response since you clearly didnt read mine.

TomiMan7Jun 12, 20191 votes

HE CANNOT GET OFF ALL 4 OF HIS ABILITIES IN 0.3 SECONDS IF JUST ONE OF THEM TAKES 0.25 SECONDS TO DO. OMG.

XavanicJun 12, 20191 votes

{quoted}

HE CANNOT GET OFF ALL 4 OF HIS ABILITIES IN 0.3 SECONDS IF JUST ONE OF THEM TAKES 0.25 SECONDS TO DO. OMG.

true but he can get everything off in 0.75 seconds, which if he dies he still took half the enemies health bars with him

TomiMan7Jun 13, 20191 votes

Well 4 times 0.25 is 1 second, now add the delay of his W witch is 0.625 seconds plus the delay of his passive witch is 2 seconds, and now all of the sudden we are talking about roughly 3.5 seconds of a window where you can AA for lifesteal, chug your potions to counter the burn dmg, to run away from each other to not set up a chain reaction, or get healed/shielded by a support.