Let's talk about sona

only zhule··8 votes·1,317 views

I would like an honest discussion here. I think she is VASTLY under the power curve of the game.

Her damage is only impressive at level 1 and after she picks up lich bane (an item designed to give a huge damage spike). This added to the trend of making champions more beefy, makes it so that she needs to get ahead in the early game to break even by the mid game. With her amazing one base damage spell, you can’t pressure enemies in lane by yourself. And your “combo” pre 6 can often mean blowing mana and spells prepping for a slightly above average 1-2 punch.

Her utility has horrible base numbers, medium to low level scaling (which is horrible because of the low base numbers), a HEAVY reliance of AP, and very high base mana costs at the lower levels. Meaning that you need to build a lot of mana regen and AP to get these skills up to par with other abilities. An issue no other support suffers under to this degree.

I would also like to touch on her health and movement speed. Both of these are VERY low base numbers, meaning that you are not only made of glass but expected to get around while walking through shin deep mud. These use to be to off set her high damage and relative safety due to the range of her aura’s. As it stands now, she has to be very close to the front lines to make her aura’s effect the team. Her damage output is also much lower unless you land your 1-2 punch, but even if you do your bonus damage via your passive does 60% less damage then it use to meaning that if you don’t kill you target, you will often lose a fight even if you had a large health advantage going in.

As she stands; she feels super slow, insanely mana hungry, lacking in any form of pre 6 team combo potential/stun, low semi ignorable damage output past level one but pre lich bane. She honestly feels like she needs to snowball early, just to run on even footing mid to late game.

32 Comments

IA9hRfpP5q2 votes

She requires no skill except for her R.

Her gameplay guide should be QWE , aim and R.

Because that's all she does all game.

QWE QWE QWE QWE QWE R QWE QWE QWE QWE

She's boring to play and that's why she's under the power curve.

Slamurai Jack2 votes

Honest discussion? She feels like shit but she's not nearly as bad as she feels and she performs above average in Solo Q. Sona isn't particularly weak, she just feels weak.

Yes Elise Supp1 votes

I've never had a problem with her mana regen, even without regen runes or full utility masteries. I rarely even buy a Chalice or Idol. I can't agree with that aspect because speaking from experience with hundreds of Sona games, that really only happens when the person is spamming like a madman, and that's not how Sona should be played (it means the Sona player is probably stealing CS and/or not waiting for good poke/commit opportunities at all). What's more, as with any support, pressure can (and should) be as much about mere presence and positioning as it can about trades and scaling.

I've also got ADCs pre-6 kills with relative ease a sizable measure of games with just her early damage output alone, some of those times without exhaust. If anything, I'd have to say all the way up into Gold she's had more pre-6 kills and takeovers for me than any other support. Her pre-6 potential is definitely there, so to that I must also deeply disagree.

There is one good point you make that I really, really agree with, and that is that she really needs her lane to upkeep gold and xp early to hold any long-term viability, otherwise it becomes increasingly difficult to catch up. I also feel like her AP is a really heavy reliance on her overall performance throughout the game, and being that she's such a high-utility pick, it makes her black and white to the point where you're either going full utility or just going for a damage build to Q/Passive the enemy into oblivion before they can turn a lead that becomes increasingly difficult to break.

only zhule1 votes

{quoted}

I've never had a problem with her mana regen, even without regen runes or full utility masteries. I rarely even buy a Chalice or Idol. I can't agree with that aspect because speaking from experience with hundreds of Sona games, that really only happens when the person is spamming like a madman, and that's not how Sona should be played (it means the Sona player is probably stealing CS and/or not waiting for good poke/commit opportunities at all). What's more, as with any support, pressure can (and should) be as much about mere presence and positioning as it can about trades and scaling.

I've also got ADCs pre-6 kills with relative ease a sizable measure of games with just her early damage output alone, some of those times without exhaust. If anything, I'd have to say all the way up into Gold she's had more pre-6 kills and takeovers for me than any other support. Her pre-6 potential is definitely there, so to that I must also deeply disagree.

There is one good point you make that I really, really agree with, and that is that she really needs her lane to upkeep gold and xp early to hold any long-term viability, otherwise it becomes increasingly difficult to catch up. I also feel like her AP is a really heavy reliance on her overall performance throughout the game, and being that she's such a high-utility pick, it makes her black and white to the point where you're either going full utility or just going for a damage build to Q/Passive the enemy into oblivion before they can turn a lead that becomes increasingly difficult to break.

Your comment about not running into mana issues surprises me. I will agree that if you are only accounting for poke you really shouldn't be running OOM, but how do you account for times when you need to heal your ally. I often find that if a trade occurs i'm looking at burning about 300 mana over 30-ish seconds to heal my ally for 110-145 hp. The shield sounds nice and can be good in the late game, but early i'd much rather heal for the total amount then give a short term shield after the fight is over.

I will agree that certain champions pair very well with Sona, Jinx for example is great since the level of poke really helps put things over the top. But for most champions it just feels like you don't bring enough to the table to pressure the lane. it can often feel like you are more of a liability then a resource to your ally in the early game.

Vesarixx1 votes

Sona is kind of a jack of all trades support, she has low base numbers but a lot of that is mitigated by her kit, she is probably the best lane bully of any support, but doesn't have quite as much set up potential as some other supports. What she is very good at is giving your ADC a free lane, if you a duo with an ADC that you know can carry then you can use Sona to give them an easy laning phase, and late game transition into either a source of massive amounts of utility for your team or considerable AP burst. I stopped playing Sona in ranked after 120 games because a lot of the time even if you hand the ADC the most free lane they have ever seen, they aren't necessarily going to know what to do with that lead, like they may rush a tear/shiv, flash into the enemy team for who knows what reason, just stand there auto attacking instead of kiting.

Now if I end up supporting I pick blitz and roam around the map ganking lanes whenever the ADC backs.

In case you were curious my rune/mastery setup was M.Pen. reds, mana regen yellows, AP blues and move speed quints. 4/5/21 masteries

and a typical build would be this item 3069 item 3222 item 3040 item 2045 item 3158item 3364 the last slot would be for either extra green wards for extended skirmishes, pink wards if an objective was likely to be contested soon, or a situational item likeitem 3060 item 3190 item 3100 item 3025 item 3023 item 3157. Defensive items only if absolutely necessary. You are squishy, but I maintained a 5.55:1 KDA over 120 games and if someone on your team is able to actually hard carry, you have all the tools to let them do that. The problem is how infrequently you get matched with someone who has hard carry potential.

Nugo1 votes

[deleted]

only zhule3 votes

{quoted}

As a damage support, Sona is certainly lacking. But, I think that her utility and team fight presence can really be pretty good, especially if have good Power Chord management and can land multi-person ultimates. That being said, Sona is definitely underwhelming when compared to some of the power pick supports (Braum, Thresh, Tahm Kench etc.). She also suffers from being incredibly level dependent in order to get her utility, something that the current meta does not really allow for very much.

I think some minor changes to her move speed and base damage would certainly be a welcome change, but I think that none of it will really help her be successful as a support champion. If you over-tune her numbers she will become a Lulu sort of pick and will rarely be played a s support, which is the role that I believe, we're talking about here. It's sort of a catch-22, unfortunately.

I admit just giving her a boost to her damage probably isn't the answer. While the ability to legitimately bully a lane would be nice to have back, i would much rather have some reasonable utility in the early game.

You comment about Lulu. while i see your point you forget that Lulu has some reasonable utility in the early game. her shield offers bonus damage from Pix if her ally auto attacks. She has a CC ability to help set up plays for her ally, while still having not unreasonable damage output.

LankPants2 votes

I admit just giving her a boost to her damage probably isn't the answer.

Her damage does need some sort of buff, at the moment it's pathetic for a support who's meant to rely on her damage output.

only zhule2 votes

{quoted}

Her damage does need some sort of buff, at the moment it's pathetic for a support who's meant to rely on her damage output.

I agree that if she is meant to be a lane bully she needs more damage, the shift towards tankier characters in the bot lane has made her feel very weak.

Some of the other things i really miss from her previous version are: her pushing power, the bonus AD was amazing at helping to push structure objectives, and actual aura's. Maybe it's just me but i really felt the rework killed her identity. I got the problem with always on aura's that gave 1000's of gold in free stats. But as they are now they just feel so lack luster and to make matters worse the range she needs to be at to use them is insane for a character made out of glass.

LankPants3 votes

If you over-tune her numbers she will become a Lulu sort of pick and will rarely be played a s support, which is the role that I believe, we're talking about here. It's sort of a catch-22, unfortunately.

How's Sona ever going to be a viable mid? She has absolutely no wave clear and number buffs don't fix that.

Nugo1 votes

[deleted]

LankPants1 votes

Sona mid wouldn't take off like Lulu, her waveclear's too much of a problem. At best Sona mid would be a very niche pick into champs that couldn't handle her. Is a support having a niche mid lane role actually a problem?

only zhule1 votes

{quoted}

Sona mid wouldn't take off like Lulu, her waveclear's too much of a problem. At best Sona mid would be a very niche pick into champs that couldn't handle her. Is a support having a niche mid lane role actually a problem?

It was before, hence the reason sona got her knee caps smashed. Mid sona use to be viable (higher base numbers on her Q no need to AA except to use powercord, always on aura that gave you bonus AD&AP... or an aura that gave you bonus armor+MR), not top tier but you could go mid and do some reasonable damage, plus her old heal helped off set her need to be close to her opponent to fight.

Partholonian1 votes

[{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yZr9qGzt,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-10-19T00:15:46.021+0000)

Meaning that you need to build a lot of mana regen and AP to get these skills up to par with other abilities. An issue no other support suffers under to this degree.

I feel like all the squishy caster supports like Nami Morgana Soraka Zyra Annie Karma Lulu Lux Bard are in the same boat with it being hard and/or risky to use your abilities often, and not having as much of an impact when you do. (When played as support; some of them are also good solo laners, which helps a lot since you have so much more exp and gold.) While at the same time being, well, squishy. Janna is at least really safe because of her passive and long range.

No wonder Braum Thresh Leona Alistar TahmKench are so popular.

only zhule2 votes

{quoted}

I feel like all the squishy caster supports like Nami Morgana Soraka Zyra Annie Karma Lulu Lux Bard are in the same boat with it being hard and/or risky to use your abilities often, and not having as much of an impact when you do. (When played as support; some of them are also good solo laners, which helps a lot since you have so much more exp and gold.) While at the same time being, well, squishy. Janna is at least really safe because of her passive and long range.

No wonder Braum Thresh Leona Alistar TahmKench are so popular.

part of the issue is that all those champs you mention have a form of CC in their base kit. it might not always be an auto stun, or point and click ability. But every single one of them has the ability to lock down the enemy to allow your ally to get some free damage in. Also all of them have more then one damage ability so even if you are forced into a duel you can still do some reasonable damage even one of your abilities is on cooldown. Both of these things are aspects that Sona is missing. You can't stun outside your ultimate, and if you don't kill with Q you often dont have the ability to finish off a low health enemy before they kill you or can run away.

The running away is probably the most painful, given that you can often have an enemy with under 200 hp simply out pace you because they have higher base movement and/or a gap closer, and you can't afford to be spamming E to keep up.

Professor Ward1 votes

So much wrong in this post im not sure if you guys have ever even played sona

Sona+ardent censor=gg if you 1st, understand positioning(she gets blown up easily), and 2nd, have an adc that knows how to auto attack.

w,q and now your adc has incredible on hit damage and attack speed

only zhule2 votes

{quoted}

So much wrong in this post im not sure if you guys have ever even played sona

Sona+ardent censor=gg if you 1st, understand positioning(she gets blown up easily), and 2nd, have an adc that knows how to auto attack.

w,q and now your adc has incredible on hit damage and attack speed

I would have to disagree. The positioning is important with her but you aren't really rewarded very well for doing it. Your aura range is so small that to surprise an enemy you are probably going to have to be in a bush.... then have your ally right in front of said bush so they can get the aura buffs. Now you need your opponent to be stupid enough to engage on a target who is right next to cover, and they don't know where the support is. Assuming you can get that, you now need to have a way to out pace the enemy champion (most of them have escape mechanics so good luck catching them without blowing ultimate).

I also have issue with that item, in that it often ends up feeling like a win more tool. i find it rare that having it will get you/your ally a kill they wouldn't have gotten before. The stat line on it isn't all that impressive when compared to other items you might build for mana regen/CDR.

Professor Ward1 votes

[{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yZr9qGzt,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2015-10-19T18:27:40.814+0000)

I would have to disagree. The positioning is important with her but you aren't really rewarded very well for doing it. Your aura range is so small that to surprise an enemy you are probably going to have to be in a bush.... then have your ally right in front of said bush so they can get the aura buffs. Now you need your opponent to be stupid enough to engage on a target who is right next to cover, and they don't know where the support is. Assuming you can get that, you now need to have a way to out pace the enemy champion (most of them have escape mechanics so good luck catching them without blowing ultimate).

I also have issue with that item, in that it often ends up feeling like a win more tool. i find it rare that having it will get you/your ally a kill they wouldn't have gotten before. The stat line on it isn't all that impressive when compared to other items you might build for mana regen/CDR.

im sorry but this is blatantly wrong, and you just said why afterwords lol, knowing how to position yourself for auras is the only skillcap sona has. I dont understand why you would need to surprise an enemy from a bush to use an aura in lane? Sounds like laziness or lack of mechanics. Her aura range doesnt need nunu ult range to be effective it just needs a player that knows how and when to use it.

Basically everything you said states to me that you dont understand the importance of sona positioning.

as for ardent censor i believe it to only be viable on sona as its going to give the bonus to up to 5 people in teamfights constantly, 30 on hit damage and 15% attack speed buff for your team is incredible and also is plenty to put you over the hill in a 2v2 trade.

only zhule1 votes

{quoted}

im sorry but this is blatantly wrong, and you just said why afterwords lol, knowing how to position yourself for auras is the only skillcap sona has. I dont understand why you would need to surprise an enemy from a bush to use an aura in lane? Sounds like laziness or lack of mechanics. Her aura range doesnt need nunu ult range to be effective it just needs a player that knows how and when to use it.

Basically everything you said states to me that you dont understand the importance of sona positioning.

as for ardent censor i believe it to only be viable on sona as its going to give the bonus to up to 5 people in teamfights constantly, 30 on hit damage and 15% attack speed buff for your team is incredible and also is plenty to put you over the hill in a 2v2 trade.

I think you are missing a few points i am trying to make. Positioning is important but as compared to other champions Sona doesn't get nearly as much benefit from having good positioning (but still suffers heavily if she's bad at it). For many other characters positioning means setting up for a stun or other form of CC. Sona can't do this pre 6 and post 6 it means blowing her ultimate (often to start a fight). You can position well and try to land a powercord E to slow your enemy but since so many characters have a build in escape mechanic this often won't do much to net you kills. Her glass jaw and no escape mechanic makes it so that you can't often attempt to get around your opponents without risking being blow up.

As for Ardent Censor i prefer to look at the item as a "what can this do for me and 1 ally" and in that regard I personally don't think it's worth the investment. If i want to consider it as a team item then i'm looking to build it probably 3rd or 4th (not counting sightstone or boots in that) since that's about the point where team fight are the main part of the game. 30 on hit damage a 15% AS sounds great, but it's also a question of when you use it. Do you start the engage with it so your ally start with a boost but you get less out of the heal and might not be close enough to give the shield? Do you wait until your heal is more relivent/ you are in range for the shield even though it means less time your ally can use the boosts? Chance are you can't have it both ways.

Censor like Sona suffers in my mind under this issue were:

solo= trash 1 ally= mediocre/ could be better 2 allies= decent 3 allies= really good 4 allies= amazing

A champion that is a power house with all their allies around sounds amazing! But when their early game is horrible and even with one ally they leave much to be desired, it often feels like a chore to get to the point where they can really shine, and it is not all that surprising if the game ends before you finally hit the tipping point with sona.

Professor Ward1 votes

Sona does plenty of damage, if you arent auto attacking with each q then youre not playing sona correctly, if they were to buff her damage i would go back to sona freelo. She already hits way too hard on adcs from a safe range, making csing for them a huge problem. And if you dont spam w like a fool her q is completly self sustaining.

only zhule1 votes

{quoted}

Sona does plenty of damage, if you arent auto attacking with each q then youre not playing sona correctly, if they were to buff her damage i would go back to sona freelo. She already hits way too hard on adcs from a safe range, making csing for them a huge problem. And if you dont spam w like a fool her q is completly self sustaining.

i feel it's a little hard to take your word on it given the 3-5 times you have played her in the last two months.

That aside, her damage isn't bad against ADC's but her "power" starts becoming smaller and smaller the higher up the ELO later you climb. A lot of that comes from people finally noticing that after she does her little surprise Q+AA, she has no follow through. Plus a lot of her damage requires enemies to either be stupid and stand within her AA range (IE not move back when a sona is making a beeline to their face) or not warding bushes so she can strike and run away (hopefully enough times to either net a kill or net her ally a kill)

Professor Ward1 votes

[{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yZr9qGzt,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2015-10-19T18:35:18.133+0000)

i feel it's a little hard to take your word on it given the 3-5 times you have played her in the last two months.

That aside, her damage isn't bad against ADC's but her "power" starts becoming smaller and smaller the higher up the ELO later you climb. A lot of that comes from people finally noticing that after she does her little surprise Q+AA, she has no follow through. Plus a lot of her damage requires enemies to either be stupid and stand within her AA range (IE not move back when a sona is making a beeline to their face) or not warding bushes so she can strike and run away (hopefully enough times to either net a kill or net her ally a kill)

Sorry High elo sona is not usable youre right there

An escape/counter engage must be used to get away from a properly played sona because you cant outrun her e>q>aa (again stating improper use of sona as a problem)

Sona poke is more effective at giving your adc a cs lead than it is at actually securing kills (shouldnt all in until 6)

Also a proper sona should camp top bush to make the support waste a ward there so that the jungle can free gank(only reason to camp bush) but i think we're getting in over your head now.

only zhule3 votes

I feel like we aren't going to come to an agreement.

Her E sounds nice but you often end up spamming it 3-5 times to catch someone and by that point it can often mean you don't have the mana to fight them even if you do catch them.

Professor Ward1 votes

[{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yZr9qGzt,comment-id=0007000000000000,timestamp=2015-10-19T19:11:10.581+0000)

I feel like we aren't going to come to an agreement.

Her E sounds nice but you often end up spamming it 3-5 times to catch someone and by that point it can often mean you don't have the mana to fight them even if you do catch them.

nonono i like you and actually agree with 80-90% of what you said

as for the e you press it once while facediving press q/aa and back off(gives just enough so that they cant escape without burning a dash or such)

as for chasing i agree it just doesnt work as a speed boost, better for securing the combo or getting back to lane faster

only zhule1 votes

{quoted}

nonono i like you and actually agree with 80-90% of what you said

as for the e you press it once while facediving press q/aa and back off(gives just enough so that they cant escape without burning a dash or such)

as for chasing i agree it just doesnt work as a speed boost, better for securing the combo or getting back to lane faster

That last point is what drives me up the wall about it. You would think that the speed boost would be enough to chase down targets, since if you build her as a cannon (all be it a glass one) she does do some decent damage..... But having to burn so much mana and time chasing a target is just the worst.

Professor Ward1 votes

[{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yZr9qGzt,comment-id=000700000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-10-19T19:17:07.178+0000)

That last point is what drives me up the wall about it. You would think that the speed boost would be enough to chase down targets, since if you build her as a cannon (all be it a glass one) she does do some decent damage..... But having to burn so much mana and time chasing a target is just the worst.

i think its is an example of a skill either being too weak or too strong, if they buffed it too much it would be a sivir ult but at its current state it just helps land q's and autos, pretty weird where it is now

CasterGilgamesh1 votes

i personally find that sona hits WAY too hard so they need to nerf her poke and place that power into her other spells

only zhule1 votes

{quoted}

i personally find that sona hits WAY too hard so they need to nerf her poke and place that power into her other spells

At what point in the game are we talking? And could you give a rough idea of the items built where this damage is "too high"?

CasterGilgamesh1 votes

for me it's every time she gets item 3057

Pika3101 votes

What? Champions that build Sheen do damage?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v636/pika310/Hatsune%20Miku%20528_zps7bx12yqa.jpg

All mocking aside, Sona's damage has been nerfed and re-nerfed so many times across the board, without fake artificial scalings that in no way reflect her actual damage output like Spellblade and Echo, Sona factually has the lowest base damage and scaling of the entire support class, just short of Braum. Her damage needs to be BUFFED, not nerfed. I question the judgment and impartiality of anyone who doesn't realize this.

Cynika3 votes

When sona uses her powerchord, she is NOT in a safe range. It's very easy for an adc to just shoot her right back.

More from Gameplay

More by only zhule