As a hardcore Garen fan...

Ok sure but why·Sep 6, 2016·9 votes·854 views

his e really sucks early game

24 Comments

Tychusfindlay919Sep 6, 20163 votes

Everyone tells me that Garen has pretty damn good scaling.

Well, if we look at him as a juggernaut, I just don't see it. His damage is kind of shit unless you build a decent amount of damage items.

If we look at him as a tank (which he isn't), then it's not too bad because he does get hella tanky.

I'd suggest maybe giving him a TINY bit more ability, a scarier ultimate (let's be real it's just a worse Darius ult right now), but a slightly less tanky profile to put him more in line with the other juggernauts.

Rework his passive to have a shorter cooldown (I'm thinking 5 seconds at level 1, 4 seconds at level 11, 3 seconds at level 16) and grant increased regeneration based on missing HP.

level 1 perseverance = after 5 seconds, gain increased regeneration based off of missing hp (+5% base HP regen for every 1% missing HP for a maximum of 495% increased regen at 1% HP).

Level 2 perseverance = after 4 seconds, gain increased regeneration based off of missing hp (7.5% base HP regen for every 1% missing HP for a maximum of 742.5% increased regen at 1%HP)

Level 3 perseverance = after 3 seconds, gain increased regeneration based off of missing hp (+15% base HP regen for every 1% missing HP for a maximum of 1485% increased base HP regen at 1% HP).

If we look Garen's base regen at level 1 it's 7.8 regen (presumably over 5 seconds, I'm looking at wiki). so at max efficiency this thing will have garen's regen at 38.61 regen.

At level 11 his base regen is 12.2 regen. This translates to 90.585 regen at max efficiency.

At level 16 his base regen is 15.1. This translates to 224.235 regen at max efficiency.

These are unadulterated (no spirit visage).

NEW EFFECT = Garen loses perseverance's effects after 3/3.5/4 seconds upon taking damage instead of immediately (however, his cooldown for perseverance is not increased by 3/3.5/4 seconds. The cd restarts the second he takes damage).

This new effect is because the new perseverance is arguably not as effective as the new one due to the fact that its missing HP based instead of flat regen boosts, so it loses effectiveness the more HP garen gets. This allows garen to go for short Q trades in lane without feeling too shitty about it and rewards the enemy for prolonging fights. If garen and his enemy exchange autos and back off, then garen's passive comes back 2 seconds after the effects die off. Late game this thing really scales hard since the effects last 4 seconds but his cd is only 3 seconds. Once again though, he will be punished in extended trades that can keep his passive off even when the effects end after 4 seconds.

Although the passive itself seems rather weak, it scales rather well when coupled with items that increase base regen like zzrot and scales rather well with spirit visage.

Take some power out of his W and put it in either his Q, E, or ult so that his damage can be in line with other juggernauts. This passive will make up somewhat for a slightly weaker W with the way it works. Garen would be able to feel like an actual juggernaut instead of a CC-less tank late game.

RequiemsfireSep 6, 20161 votes

This wouldn't really fix any of Garen's problems. His damage isn't weak as you say it is and it's not really the issue Garen has. The issue with Garen is that he has so few tools for actually reaching his opponent that slows, stuns and snares render him almost completely irrelevant when played correctly.

Since his reworked has received nerfs to his base movement speed, some damage cuts and nerfs to most of his items that would be considered core on Garen while utility takes a strong place in every meta. Things like Ashe slow, Tristana , Azir Emperor's divide, item 3116 crystal scepter all make Garen very kiteable because he can't really overcome these kind of obstacles through any means other than just try just keep rushing at them. Garen is really supposed to be this scary juggernaut that gets in your enemies face so the enemy can't ignore him because of the damage he deals like DrMundo except Garen is meant to hunt down the enemy team carry which is really hard to perform out in team fights when they are competent to some degree.

Tychusfindlay919Sep 6, 20161 votes

{quoted}

This wouldn't really fix any of Garen's problems. His damage isn't weak as you say it is and it's not really the issue Garen has. The issue with Garen is that he has so few tools for actually reaching his opponent that slows, stuns and snares render him almost completely irrelevant when played correctly.

Since his reworked has received nerfs to his base movement speed, some damage cuts and nerfs to most of his items that would be considered core on Garen while utility takes a strong place in every meta. Things like slow, , Emperor's divide, crystal scepter all make Garen very kiteable because he can't really overcome these kind of obstacles through any means other than just try just keep rushing at them. Garen is really supposed to be this scary juggernaut that gets in your enemies face so the enemy can't ignore him because of the damage he deals like except Garen is meant to hunt down the enemy team carry which is really hard to perform out in team fights when they are competent to some degree.

Probably should make his W go back to tenacity. But otherwise I understand and aree. However, I still think garen could use this change, he needs to be a little less tanky and a little more damage oriented because right now hes way tankier than the other juggies but his damage is nowhere near the other juggies.

The current meta is pretty bad for him, thats true. But I still believe that meta aside, garen is weak. It makes no sense that a juggernaut should have out of cobat regen boosts. Every single juggernaut has in-combat hp boosts, and this passive rework should help garen move a little bit towards that direction.

A lot of garens core items are shared with darius, and even post juggy item nerfs, darius has still found himself a comfortable spot (admittedly because darius has more cc along with his cc being more reliable), so I doubt the item changes are behind garen's problems.

Ok sure but whySep 10, 20161 votes

i used to go item 3078 item 3009 item 3031 item 3087 item 3046 item 3812 until they removed crit from the tri force

specter424Sep 6, 20162 votes

He needs buffs almost across the board. Now to convince Riot and the Bronze/Silver community that..

Succubús GFSep 6, 20161 votes

He is actually the one top laner i have no trouble kiting. Trundle on the other hand.. Feelsbronzeman.

specter424Sep 6, 20161 votes

Well Pillar is bullshit and he gets ghost for free

Succubús GFSep 6, 20161 votes

Nothing breaks my heart more than when he traps pillar in between you and the wall you are next to

TONY IS SO HOTSep 6, 20161 votes

I'm gonna guess you main Gnar. =D

Succubús GFSep 6, 20161 votes

I main eve lol but when i go top i usually go teemo or trynd rofl

TONY IS SO HOTSep 6, 20161 votes

feelsbadman

Ok sure but whySep 10, 20161 votes

he doesn't need buffs all he needs is for crit to come back to item 3078

DunkinNoobsSep 6, 20162 votes

That's why I don't take it until lvl 4. You're better off just autoing until lvl 5.

statelesskillerSep 6, 20161 votes

its good against those "im gonna all in you at level 2 and either im dieing or your dieing" champs. such as tryndamere. because you back off abit into your minion wave and you get the isolation damage from it. it does a fuck load then

RevaliSep 6, 20161 votes

his q is the bread and butter of his early, the e outscales it by far, which is why you max e.

Ok sure but whySep 6, 20161 votes

his e practically only scales with level

at the start, upping it once will give it like 40 extra total damage, but late game, it will do like 200 or 300 extra

40glassSep 6, 20163 votes

{quoted}

his q is the bread and butter of his early, the e outscales it by far, which is why you max e.

check high elo garen players, most of them max Q. Q has more base damage considering the fact most of the time the target probably wont be isolated and receive the full E ticks.

SpookyNeedleSep 6, 20161 votes

I never have trouble with Garen as Fiora (she's favored in the matchup anyways) I even have a detailed laning guide against Garen as Fiora. Now while I absolutely despise facing and playing him, he does seem sub-par compared to other juggernauts.

lighning23Sep 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I never have trouble with Garen as Fiora (she's favored in the matchup anyways) I even have a detailed laning guide against Garen as Fiora. Now while I absolutely despise facing and playing him, he does seem sub-par compared to other juggernauts.

garen vs fiora is so much easier on fiora if parry his q (or his ult if your fast enough) garen cant fight you at all through your ult healing and life steal.

LegenDariusGarenSep 8, 20161 votes

Putting points in E in early levels is a waste. http://imgur.com/a/S098s

Critmaster GarenSep 10, 20161 votes

what if instead of making the 33% damage increase on the spin isolation damage, they make it similar to how darius axe works?

meaning his spin has an inner circle where it deals regular damage, and a very narrow outer circle where it deals 33% increased damage? that way it would give garen a slightly higher skillcap without changing his playstile at all.

for the garen player it would be about that perfect positioning, where he hits multiple enemies with the outer edge of the spin. it would also make the spin more useful in lane, since he would be able to make use of that damage increase more regularly, when he positions well.

just spitballing here.

http://i.imgur.com/r34pXsF.png?1

(shitty doodle in paint to illustrate the idea)

Ok sure but whySep 10, 20161 votes

garen has a small handle

Critmaster GarenSep 10, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=JZ Jora,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yVYGEOBL,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2016-09-10T04:26:16.858+0000)

garen has a small handle

yea, i understand. but the sword is still a lever. it should hurt more to get hit near the tip than to get hit near the handle.

and just for the sake of adding a useful mechanic to it, without changing his playstile really, it might work.

basically it should still end up as a buff for him, because he could use the damage increase more often in lane than now (which is basically never) through positioning, and he would deal more damage in teamfights when hitting multiple enemies with the edge of the spin.

right now he feels too weak when not fighting the villain, and this could be an interesting way to buff him in those situations.

Ok sure but whySep 10, 20161 votes

cc meta is too strong for that