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Anyone else think Kindred would be a more interesting champ if Wolf was just as relevant as Lamb?

Ok sure but why··91 votes·3,429 views

Kindred is such an interesting pair in their lore, and in their theme. I played them a few times, and the fact that Wolf is literally just a W is disheartening. He could have been so much more.

Kindred could have been a new tag-team champ, like Jayce, or Nidalee, or Gnar. Lamb could have been what she is now -- someone who's good at kiting and whittling champs down, but Wolf could have been some more aggressive champ that force-switches when attacking low-health champs. Like a diver. I dunno, I just feel bad for Wolf.

EDIT - Just a thought, but I think the new Warwick's kit would have worked really well with Wolf. More attack speed, good chase and a fear. Since people always fear the physical embodiment of death.

EDIT - I also think Kindred's circles should be tuned around keeping enemies from running (More in an Illaoi E way, where she says, "Sure, you CAN leave, but~~~") and she should have some more opportunities to leap around her targets, like a ballerina. Graceful.

Q. Why would we make another tag team champ like Jayce?? That's not very diverse. A. Oh, please. A marksman with two circles doesn't add that much diversity, either. And at least Kindred's Q will never deal 10000000 damage from Mars.

Q. We tried it on Quinn, but Riot took that away! A. That's not really a question,,, but Valor was literally just a melee Quinn that didn't add anything new but some changes to stats.

69 Comments

Martensitic25 votes

Absolutely agree. They wasted a great opportunity with that one.

Lets face it, Wolf is nothing but an over-glorified projectile animation.

But then again, the entire concept of Kindred is boring and uninspired...mechanic-wise, not the lore. The lore is great. Its basically Quinn-meets-Vayne, only with all the good parts taken out. What's left is:

"right click and pray to god you outdamage your opponent"

Boring af.

SEKAI1 votes

{quoted} Its basically Quinn-meets-Vayne, only with all the good parts taken out. What's left is:

"right click and pray to god you outdamage your opponent"

At least on the bright side: If you do outdamage your opponents, you can type "boom outplayed" in /all with no regrets.

LavenderStar 11 votes

You know what would be awesome? If your ult was you switching from Lamb to Wolf. Kindred means twin spirits after all,so why only one being used? Give us that nidalee elise ult on kindred. [slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

Ok sure but why4 votes

Well, I don't want them turning too much into Jayce. I was thinking it could be more of a forced switch when attacking low-health champions for a period of time, to go more along the whole "Wolf kills those who resist" thing.

Chembaron Yamada2 votes

Soooo..... If I'm inting, I can prevent the transformation to wolf?

LavenderStar 2 votes

Well maybe kindred has to get fury or energy or something to then turn into wolf? It would be more interesting than her fucking heal that only appears under her. That ult is very useless tbh [zombie-brand-clap]

Supreme Senpai692 votes

Idk why they gutted that it wasn't even an issue really. She used to be able to cast it under allies. Did Riot ever provide a reason for that change? She was crazy strong for awhile, but then they nerfed her base movement speed along other things and she fell out. Then they changed her ult and she's considered a troll pick now

Fondling Gems1 votes

I think the change was because the range on it meant that if you could cast it on allies you could cast it on yourself and it would still reach them. It was changed because it was also a panic button ult (like trynd) and having to click on yourself and then press R was hard to do in reaction to an assassin coming out of nowhere to blow you up.

I know I personally had a bunch of trouble with the ability and always failed to use it in time.

macromite3 votes

there is a self cast button

Fondling Gems1 votes

I am aware, but I honestly never have to use it. Kindred ult was the first thing that gave me issues in that regard and having to press a button combo against the assassin jumping over the wall was harder than just pressing R.

It didn't actually remove skill from her kit since ulting yourself would still reach whomever you were trying to save and it removed needless complexity from her kit. In other words it didn't actually offer much but it was a barrier for new players to get past. It is the reason that most AOE's in LoL are either ground targeted or centered on yourself, having an AOE be targeted on an ally/enemy adds needless complexity when both other options offer just as much power but are more user friendly.

Supreme Senpai691 votes

It functioned the same as Lulu's ult. Alt+R to self cast, click on ally+R to ally cast. And I mean that in terms of the AoE knockup part. I'm sorry that you and possibly others had trouble with it. Personally, it took me ages to learn how to make Xerath/Jhin ult lol. But to say it didn't offer much is so silly! My friend was a Kindred ADC main when she came out and that change in addition to the range and other nerfs just ruined it for him. It offered quite a bit, really.

It removed complexity but not needless complexity. It wasn't its own mechanics like Kled or Warwrick's ult. It was basically a Lulu ult in terms of how it was cast. Needless complexity is bad but so is making something simple for the sake of making it simple.

For example: The old kindred ult gave you trouble, but do you play the new kindred? She's kind of extremely ass right now and the ult change is partly responsible. I'd rather have a functioning yet somewhat difficult champion tbh

Fondling Gems1 votes

The thing is the lulu example is highly different because one again, any time you could cast ult before on someone self casting it would reach them anyways. The only time you can't do it anymore is if someone is about to die outside your range and there is another ally between you two.

Lulu ult is primarily a lifesave unless you happen to have something like a Yasuo on your team and are trying to combo. The slow/knockup happens to be a bonus and unlike Kindred ult the effect is different for whomever you cast it on. Yes there is an aoe component attached to an ally point and click but it very different from an ult that influences all allies the same and as such doesn't matter who you target with it.

Also I greatly preferred Kindred with the ult change over the original Kindred. I found them to be much more streamlined because it felt like a needless mechanic. The reason I don't play Kindred anymore (beyond not playing a ton of League right now and jungle/ADC being my two worst roles, I picked up kindred as a novelty Kalista is the only ADC I actually enjoy playing) is because they got nerfed into the ground. For me the ult change felt like a power neutral change. It was a nerf because you lost some flexibility, but it was also a buff because it streamlined the champion and made their abilities easier to use (Not easier I the sense of easy champion, easier in the sense that the ability didn't feel needlessly complicated while still performing the same role.)

The old ult only added difficulty to the champion in very rare cases. However there are two types of difficulty, there is difficulty that adds to gameplay and difficulty that makes it harder to play that game. Old kindred ult made her harder to use without actually adding to her gameplay at all. An example would be if you had to solve a puzzle to use Taric's ult. Sure, it adds difficulty, but it doesn't actually add to the gameplay, it hinders it. In the same way Kindred ult only offered gameplay that it doesn't offer now in very rare and niche situations, while it hindered gameplay much more often.

DwarvenGiant7 votes

I feel like transformation gameplay won't fit them, simply because they're two parts of one whole, and when you choose one over the other, they aren't really working together anymore- Unless there's a way around that which I'm not seeing.

I'm also not sure if it's really better or worse than what their gameplay is right now.

AninLegions7771 votes

It would. Wolf becomes like WW on all 4s. Gains bonuses towards marked targets/camps. Becomes melee. Gets a new set of abilities and shit. It would work.

DwarvenGiant1 votes

Wolf on all 4's? Meh, I'm really not fond of the idea (Especially because of how cool and unique I think the silhouette of a giant, shadow-made (and fluffy) worm with a wolf's head is).

There were some concepts of him on all four (or just having limbs at all), and it really already seems to be Warwick's thing. Thus, giving Wolf limbs would probably not only take away from Warwick, but also from himself (IMO).

SEKAI2 votes

{quoted}

I feel like transformation gameplay won't fit them, simply because they're two parts of one whole, and when you choose one over the other, they aren't really working together anymore- Unless there's a way around that which I'm not seeing.

I'm also not sure if it's really better or worse than what their gameplay is right now.

I think he just meant "switching", not "transforming".

So what I might think it happen is that pressing R changes which one of the 2 you're currently playing as while the other stands on the side functioning as a support of some sort to the one you're controlling.

Like Kindred's current kit is just half of their kit. Get rid of their current R and implement this switching mechanics. And give Wolf a kit when you're controlling them that also involves having Lamb as a support, just like how Wolf is Lamb's support when you're playing as Lamb.

I don't think it breaks their theme, because they are supposed to be "Two" who are also "One". I think this works perfectly.

DwarvenGiant1 votes

I think he just meant "switching", not "transforming".

Yeah, that's what I thought they meant.

So what I might think it happen is that pressing R changes which one of the 2 you're currently playing as while the other stands on the side functioning as a support of some sort to the one you're controlling.

Like Kindred's current kit is just half of their kit. Get rid of their current R and implement this switching mechanics. And give Wolf a kit when you're controlling them that also involves having Lamb as a support, just like how Wolf is Lamb's support when you're playing as Lamb.

I don't think it breaks their theme, because they are supposed to be "Two" who are also "One". I think this works perfectly.

My thinking is that breaking it into two- where you play as one while the other supports you- really screams "Hunter & Pet" (or something along these lines, in a way) rather than "Two parts of the same whole". I think that they should be working together at the same time, rather than having one of them become, as Martensitic said, an over-glorified projectile.

The switching mechanic might have both Lamb and Wolf work in one kit, but I just feel like that, even with whatever synergy that will tie them together, you may never feel like you're playing the duo at the same time.

However, I just thought that, maybe if switching/transforming (whatever you wanna call it) could work, then there's one way of going about that. I'll explain below.

-_-

In the meantime, I'm gonna try to be creative and think of a possible gameplay concept that fits how I personally see them (with their thematic potential); For now, I have the following, but I'm not sure how I really feel about them- Here goes:

  • Some kind of (said) transforming/switching: You start out "as Lamb" (similarly to how they're being controlle right now), perhaps even with a kit that is at least similar to what they currently have- only with more emphasis on Lamb's arrows rather than Wolf's teeth. But after a few seconds of the enemy fighting back or running away from a fight with the Eternal Hunters, Lamb gives Wolf the permission to chase, and so, (Whether very controllably or less so) you "switch" to Wolf as he is unleashed- That might just mean, though, that the temporarily-transformed kit will have simply more emphasis on Wolf, with Lamb still being in the player's control as well.

  • This whole mechanic slightly resembles Gnar's Rage-based transformation to me, and perhaps, for synergy within the kit, Wolf can become more active when interacting in some way with a Marked target.

  • What if they had some sort of a "Flee" effect that helped activating Wolf in a more controllable way, rather than something Gnar-esque?

  • Every ability has TWO casts: Think that this concept would play similarly to Lee Sin, but in a thematic take that fits Lamb and Wolf- With the first cast being Lamb's swift, calm and subtle arrows, and the second being a much more aggressive, hyper-active and brutal chase by Wolf.

  • Going back to the previous, "switching/transformation" gameplay concept- What if the second cast- Wolf's cast- would require something special (more than Mana) to be activated? The enemy fleeing/fighting back for a few seconds, like I mentioned earlier. Or maybe something akin to Warwick's Blood Hunt? (Although, that might take away from Warwick.) What if it had synergy between that potential something that is like Blood Hunt and Mark of the Kindred?

SEKAI1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, that's what I thought they meant.

My thinking is that breaking it into two- where you play as one while the other supports you- really screams "Hunter & Pet" (or something along these lines, in a way) rather than "Two parts of the same whole". I think that they should be working together at the same time, rather than having one of them become, as Martensitic said, an over-glorified projectile.

The switching mechanic might have both Lamb and Wolf work in one kit, but I just feel like that, even with whatever synergy that will tie them together, you may never feel like you're playing the duo at the same time.

Lamb and Wolf are a different "duo" in a sense that they are not supposed to be a tag-team like Quinn and Valour where the 2 function together as 1, Lamb and Wolf are 1 that function as 2 instead. It was the goal of whoever it was to split themselves into 2 halves so that "he would always have a friend", it's thus unreasonable to merge Lamb and Wolf together mechanically because that would be just the same as before the split and thus self-defeating; and instead, they are supposed to be 2 distinct entities that complement each other. Therefore, the best way to work it out is by allowing the player to interchange between controlling Lamb and Wolf, while the unused one is still a support to the one currently in control; and together "they" are "one" champion called Kindred.

If you want another example that may or may not support what I was referring to, think about the colour design of Lamb and Wolf. What do you see? Lamb is white who wears a black mask, Wolf is black that wears a white mask; it clearly alludes to concepts like Taiji (the supreme pole/goal) where it's symbolised as one circle that is divided into two distinct halves, the white side has a black dot, and the black side has a white dot, and together they are One.

Hence the kit-swap idea similar to Elise and Jayce where you could control either as Lamb supported by Wolf or vice versa since lvl1 is more sounding, as opposed to say the kits similar to say Gnar (the 2 halves are not equal by default, though it is better than what we currently have but it's still not cool) or Lee Sin (2 halves merged back into 1, goes against the theme).

PaffWasTaken1 votes

How many times i'll need to repeat? The whole concept of kindred isn't being able to play two DIFFERENT entities, like a vulgar change forms champElise Jayce Gnar Nidalee Swain Quinn , it's that we play BOTH at the same time, don't scrap them up on a tag team thing ohgodno I'll repeat the actual changes who could've fullfill all your weird tag team fetishes for them, while keeping their main idea: Tap on QWER, you get wolf's version of the ability: fast, repetitive, aggressive, linear and straightforward like it's lore Hold down QWER and channel the capacity, you get Lamb's version: subtile, gracefull, slower but unescapable and still as Deadly as the aggressive counterpart, like it's lore Meditate on this, and please let go of the idea of scrapping Kindred even further, I don't want a jungle version of Jayce, and almost everyone should aggree with that if they want to keep diversity in the game

SSJTribe10 votes

Sad that when speaking of tag-team champs, Quinn isn't even mentioned anymore. Thanks rework.

MisterShameless2 votes

What about Lulu?

Bard R Friday8 votes

I had an idea for a different Kindred ult that would put a circle around Lamb and the enemy, and apply some sort of effect to one of them. Then if the enemy walked out of the circle Wolf would replace Lamb as the played character with alternate skills. It would be a really cool portrayal of how people choose between a peaceful death by Lamb and a violent death by Wolf.

PaffWasTaken1 votes

Actually the best idea so far, everyone down there is going mad to get a transformation ult to switch between lamb and wolf, but YOU actually know their lore and used it. Good job man

AIIan6 votes

[{quoted}](name=JZ Jora,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=74q4eWk3,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-02-10T05:57:39.606+0000) Lamb could have been what she is now -- someone who's good at kiting and whittling champs down, but Wolf could have been some more aggressive champ that force-switches when attacking low-health champs. Like a diver. I dunno, I just feel bad for Wolf.

Look, I'm not here to rain on your parade. I liked Kindred, I played them a lot adc before the removal of the passive healing, and I do wish they were much more like a duo instead of "mainly Lamb with some added Wolf's particle effects" (nothing is more disheartening than hearing someone refer to Kindred as "she" like Wolf isn't even here, that's letting down the whole thematic point of the duo).

HOWEVER...

What you suggest sounds a lot, and by that I mean a lot, like my ex-favorite-champion-before-she-was-mercilessly-butchered-by-some-moron-that-didn't-understand-a-thing-about-what-made-the-champion-great aka pre-rework Quinn (& Valor).

https://youtu.be/O9eVLrcih9s?t=95

Riot made a half-assed attempt at bringing two characters for one, failed, and I think they now pretty much put the whole idea of a dual champion in the freezer like they did Yorick years ago. Don't expect them to change their minds on the subject any time soon.

(Btw, it's pretty funny, they decided to put rework Quinn because nobody played her. Now she's even less played as she lost her initial fanbase while not retaining any new attention enless she ends up with stupid broken numbers for some patches)

Ariel the Cruel3 votes

while not retaining any new attention enless she ends up with stupid broken numbers for some patches)

That's because her niche of "Hyper roaming" isn't the most useful on a champion that scales poorly - even when snowballing. They forced so much budget into the ult CD that she doesn't really have the power to match anyone at anything else.

PB4UAME1 votes

The only two ADCs I used to play were Quinn and Graves before the ADC rework. Now very little of what enticed me to play those characters remains, and I haven't touched them since a few weeks after the rework, and no longer play, like nor care about a single ADC.

Wyrmblade6 votes

I was extremely opposed to Kindred needing a rework when she first came out, but one of those tiny reworks like Ashe or Alistar would be god tier here.

None of her abilities really fit with eachother, half of them are about staying in a circle and the other half are focused on chasing.

Sraeg20135 votes

Wha- are you saying Kindred isn't just that jumpy white sheep-thing with a bow?

https://i.imgflip.com/ekosg.jpg

Sexy Jack Rabbit5 votes

Riot is just HORRIBLE at creating a good Duo champion. They have tried again Quinn and again Kled and again Sejuani and again Kindred (Partly Lulu but she wasn't marketed as such)

I feel like Riot just isn't capable of making a good "Duo" champion.

That being said I've never been one to compliment Riot's designs, considering them 'Meh' at best, but that's just my opinion. One always feels like a slave driver, never like partners.

If you ask me the only 'Duo' in the game that actually feels like a true Duo is Riggle and Tristana in the Dragon Trainer skin. Dragon Trainer wouldn't make much sense without a dragon tbh. You could just replace Valor with a cart and it'd work the same.

Veltox4 votes

What even is bad at Kled design?

Sexy Jack Rabbit1 votes

Kled's personal design is pretty unique when looking at about 90% of the League of Legends roster, albeit he still does play off of a stereotype. Kled is a good character, but Kled and Skaarl as a duo aren't really anything special, and half the time I forget Skaarl is even there.

Their design isn't bad, but their partnership is pretty meh.

Ariel the Cruel5 votes

Kindred could have been a new tag-team champ, like Jayce, or Nidalee, or Gnar. Lamb could have been what she is now -- someone who's good at kiting and whittling champs down, but wolf could have been some more aggressive champ that force-switches when attacking low-health champs.*** Like a diver.*** I dunno, I just feel bad for Wolf.

RiP, Valor. Your time as a champion was too brief.

Valor Bot1 votes

item 3070

Langhof3 votes

I feel like kindred ult is just extremely underwhelming now, due to things such as redemption and taric ult. I think a cooler ult would be to assume control of wolf and gain a whole new skillset, while you chase down your target with boosted move speed and damage boost

Sexy Jack Rabbit2 votes

Kindred's ult is one of the most impactful in the game, honestly I wouldn't change for a thing. It's the only part of their kit that feels like you're doing something. The rest of it is just "Use E + W + Q and hope they die first"

Boop Daddy 2 votes

Their ult is unreliable and double edged. Bard and Kindred have the only two ults in the game I can think of that give immediate power to the enemy team. Objectively, the ult is more risky than it is rewarding for the player, especially now that you can't cast it on allies.

Sexy Jack Rabbit1 votes

Their Ult is only unreliable if you don't know how to use it. Having the decision making skills and proper knowledge of the situation can and has won games before.

Boop Daddy 3 votes

Lol. Yeah. I love them half to death. They're my second fav champion. Right now, a lot of her power is budgeted in her passive and ult that it just crowds out anything else they could have done. I would prefer if they just scrapped the ult and made wolf a pet.

Playing Greymane from Hots feels more like Kindred than the current Kindred do.

RavenMagus3 votes

I dunno. It didn't really work that great for old Quinn.

I would have loved to see Wolf play a more pivotal role... but not a transforming champ like that.

EinarUlfar2 votes

Although I'd love to see Wolf showing his teeth a bit more throughout the kit, I can't deny that I absolutely love Kindred's design(aesthetically) and VO.

ModAcademy Kayn2 votes

If we're talking about Thematically, they are consistently opposites. While Lamb is patient, Wolf is not. While Lamb is gentle, Wolf is violent. If we follow that idea, then one leads, and the other follows, and I think that we lucked out for lamb being the "Leader". Lamb is the one who keeps Wolf in control, and as such, she is the one who tells him that it's time to play.

Lauchmelder2 votes

I agree.

Hell, Kindred could be a split personality champion, where Lamb is the natural hunter and the mind behind everything, seeking out their prey, marking them and then attacking them. When her Prey is weakened but wants to run away (something along the lines of "if the target leaves a 1500-2000 radius around Lamb while below 30% MaxHP") she let's Wolf take over and he gets (similar to Vayne) a slight speedboost towards the champion.

To add balance though, it shouldn't be an infinite distance for it to work, rather an area. If her target gets too far away Wolf lets Lamb take over again.

DJMason881 votes

The problem is that doesn't fit her lore. Kindred kills swift and wolf kills slowly.

Ariel the Cruel3 votes

Wolf kills violently, not slowly.

Valor Bot2 votes

Quinn's old ult was literally named Tag Team. If anything, switching between a kitey marksman and melee assassin should be her thing.

RogueWill1 votes

It used to be. It was scrapped and reworked into her current form.

Danjeng1 votes

I don't think Kindred should be a tag team champ, both aspects of them should be acting alongside each other. Maybe if Kindred's abilities had more interaction with wolf rather than just w.

For example, while Lamb's Respite is active, wolf circles over the last target Lamb has attacked. When Lamb's Respite ends, wolf lunges down on that target, dealing an executing blow.

Sparkly warrior1 votes

I think that if you made wolf act like Annie and her bear then we"d have a show, like maybe for their w do what Annie's ult does but less damage, have wolf as a constant pet that does damage based on marks you've gotten, and he only moves when you click him to a target.

Sparkly warrior1 votes

I've got it, a two part ult, first you shoot out an arrow which will be a long range skill shot, but if they dodge it wolf is released and he goes into a hunt disconnecting from lamb and chasing the target, for maybe 10 sec at blistering speed, and if he catches them it destroys them.

Sparkly warrior1 votes

Ok I've done it, so kindreds Q would be a combo of their Q and E you vault forward and if you intercept an enemy you mark them and hit them the 3 times until you proc wolfs attack, her W would be an Annie and tibbers style pet control of wolf, it's no longer a ability that only lasts for a while but a second autoAttack that you can control as a pet. Her E is just her old ult in a smaller scale, like shens area of non aa damage. Their ult would be a skill shot that they fire, first you choose a target then you shoot, if they accept death then it ends you hit them and they die or just get lower in health, if the chosen champion doesn't get hit you gain vision of them for ten seconds while wolf disconnects from lamb and gains continuous speed and you hunt down the enemy, if they catch them then they bite for super damage, if the time runs out they live and kindred reforms meaning lamb reappears next to wolfs current position

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