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@Vesh @Morello - A plea for a Band-Aid fix: Please don't leave waiting any more years!

Neo Cyrus··108 votes·11,343 views

I want to start with the preface that these are far from my thoughts alone, they’re mine and several Plat and Diamond ranked Diana players who I asked to help me prepare this. So please take this for what it is; a letter from multiple Diana players ranging from Gold to Diamond 1 who are asking you to consider what we have to say.

For those too impatient to read this there is a TL;DR in bold partway down... aaand I missed the "us" in the title and it won't let me edit it anymore. If a moderator gets a chance please fix that.

It has been over a year and a half now that Diana was nerfed beyond enough to ensure the objective (Diana never seeing LCS play again) gets secured. That patch was December 2012. In a game with over 100 characters it’s common to leave some of them hanging in limbo until a complete rework and that's what I'm afraid of; that our favourite character will be left unviable for another two years if not permanently. If you refuse to call her unviable, then let’s replace that with “incredibly frustrating”.

Some side context: [Start] I want to make it clear I don't use the word "unviable" lightly at all. I hate buzzwords that are thrown around by those who have no experience on the specific topic. Just last season I had nearly 300 ranked games as Diana and I truly believe that as low as 1400+ Elo Diana is one of the very few that can justifiably be classified as unviable due to the sheer difficulty of winning a game relative to any other mage in the game. It only gets worse the higher the rank goes according to the Diamond players and also the statistics. There’s the painful fact that anything she can do another champion can do better while being far safer.

I also want to make it clear that I don’t just look at statistics blindly either. Win rates mean nothing without a lot of context behind them. In Diana’s case her win rates are extremely bloated, perhaps the most bloated in the game. There are relatively few that play her at each rank so those who do tend to be mains or at least those with far beyond average mechanics and understanding of the character relative to their respective Elos.

Last month in Diamond Diana’s win rate averaged 47%, which seems fine and dandy until you consider how many of those players play mostly just Diana and how much of an easier time they would have winning as another champion that they aren’t nearly as good at. How much would that win rate be if she was just played as regularly as other champions in ranked are?

The opposite holds true for very powerful champions due to their popularity. This means deflated win rates. So it irritates me to no end when someone makes a comparison of a powerful champion at say 54% being compared to Diana at 47% saying that she’s “fine”. That 54% would be incredibly higher if the same ridiculous level of time and effort was put forth as it is for Diana to maintain a win rate in the 40s. [/End]

That patch in Dec 2012 hit every single thing she had which left her with a win rate in the 20%s constantly (for a month?), if the internet is to be believed, until the next patch. It was obviously meant to remove her from play (especially competitive), we get it, but it was way more than enough. I remember distinctly a high of 28% at high Elo. About a month after that you guys rolled back some of the nerfs but she’s been in shambles since.

There have been a lot of buzz words thrown around such “unhealthy” but anything Diana does another assassin (Fizz, Akali, Talon, Yasuo, etc) can do better. Any reason you have for not allowing Diana to be in a viable state until a rework is rather weak considering there are other champions that have the same so-called undesirable traits yet are far more powerful and worlds safer. If they get ahead, they hold the lead a lot easier than Diana can and can close games a lot easier as well.

This isn’t about wanting free power to win, this is a plea telling you that there’s a lot of us who’ve lost interest in this game because a unique character is simply too painful and stressful to use. It drains the fun out of the game. There’ similar champions such as Akali we could use if we wanted a powerful champion, but it’s not fun, it’s not the same… yet Diana as she is, is nothing but stressful.

Even though Gold+ may make up only 20% or so of the ranked population please don’t disregard us. There are tons of champions with preposterous win rates (especially at Diamond) which Rioters themselves said will not be nerfed because they’re not considered threatening in competitive play at the moment (Rammus, Amumu, etc). I would be willing to bet that if mid Season 2 Diana was thrown into the game she wouldn’t be a common LCS pick (if used at all) with how much things have changed, especially items and the change in the champion pool itself.

TL;DR/The point: A rework which may never happen is too painful to think of, it’s already approaching two years and from everything you’ve told us there are no plans of beginning on a rework. All of us are asking for a Band-Aid fix; please consider something, ANYTHING to hold us over until a rework!

We've compiled a large list of changes that could be used as temporary Band-Aid fixes for you to consider. This was all taken into consideration relative to the current state of the game and is keeping in mind her tiny mana pool. That and the fact that her mana costs and cool downs were never adjusted after the skills themselves were nerfed. Also please remember her itemization nowhere nearly as powerful as it was before.

Edit: It seems I wasn't clear enough, we're certainly not saying we think all of this should be applied, we just wanted to leave a comprehensive list of changes that could be considered.

**Passive – Moonsilver Blade: ** Original - 20/25/30/40/50/65/80/95/110/125/140/155/175/195/215/240/265/290 (+0.6 AP) +20% on 0.625 + 2.25% base AS R acts as a stack Current - 20/25/30/35/40/50/60/70/80/90/105/120/135/155/175/200/225/250 (+0.8 AP) +20% on 0.625 +2.25% base AS R no longer grants a stack Radius reduced

Context -

  1. The ratio was increased to 0.8 AP from 0.6 AP since Lich Bane was nerfed from 0.75 AP to 0.50 AP after Diana was already considered unviable. An average trade was 2 Lich Bane procs and 1 passive proc. That’s 0.6 + 1.5 for a total of 2.1 versus the current 0.8 + 1.0 totaling 1.8.

  2. The cleave radius was reduced so her passive actually doesn't hit what the animation shows anymore, definitely nothing on the back swing.

  3. There was a very painful ninja nerf that removed her R from acting as a passive stack essentially making it incredibly difficult to land it on an opponent. Having it prepped means they can just walk away, as you clearly glow, until the time runs out otherwise you have to manage to somehow land an extra hit (fat chance in a lane short as mid). We’ve still never been told what patch this nerf was introduced. Meddler has told us that his oldest copy of the game from Nov 2013 already had the R stack patched out.

  4. Her passive grants 20% to her attack speed in order to leave her with an abysmal AS base of 0.625 + 2.25% ensuring that she gets very little out of building AS. This makes items such as Nashor’s Tooth statistically not worth buying as a mid laner.

Possible Band-Aid fixes: Restore her passive’s range and give her a bruiser level AS base. Shyvana and Jarvan have 0.658 + 2.50% which seems appropriate. Since her R can no longer grant a stack allow her to hold onto her passive proc like Annie does. Annie does it from a distance with a less noticeable effect than entirely glowing like Diana does. This would grant Diana sorely needed lane presence to miss less farm as she’s bullied from a distance.

QoL fixes: Add a passive stack indicator please! If the passive is going to be on a timer then including a time indicator as well would be great. Basically these could both be on the passive icon.

Q – Crescent Strike: Original - 80/125/170/215/260 (+0.8 AP) Temp - 70/110/150/190/230 (+0.7 AP) Current - 60/95/130/165/200 (+0.7 AP)

Possible Band-Aid fixes: Reverting damage to 70/110/150/190/230 (+0.7 AP). Decreasing CD by 1 second to 9/8/7/6/5 due to the fact that her build paths currently don’t allow for any CDR.

W – Pale Cascade: Original - 20/36/52/68/84 (+0.2 AP) damage. 55/80/105/130/155 (+0.45 AP) shield (4s). Current - 22/34/46/58/70 (+0.2 AP) damage. 40/55/70/85/100 (+0.3 AP) shield (5s). Explosion radius reduced Shield now stacks after all orbs explode

Possible Band-Aid fixes: Reverting damage to 20/36/52/84 (+0.2 AP). Reverting the explosion radius. Decreasing its mana cost to 60/65/70/75/80 from 60/70/80/90/100. Increasing shield to 40/60/80/100/120 (+0.35 AP).

E – Moonfall: Context - The precise size of this was never stated (450 radius?) but the massive decrease in its size is the same as it was from the doom patch of December 2012.

Possible Band-Aid fixes: What is it now? 225? 250? Again, it was never stated. It could easily have another 100 range and still require burning flash in order to actually catch someone with it who isn’t already point-blank from using R. The flat 70 cost is brutal; this is one which we all strongly feel needs to be adjusted to 50/55/60/65/70 as no one uses it in lane due to the flat 70 cost which is nonsense relative to her mana pool. The pull could be changed from 0.5 seconds to 0.75. Anything could be done about the absurd 26/24/22/20/18 cool down. This skill is one of the biggest complaints all of us have from Gold to Diamond, what it does is nowhere near proportional to the cost and cool down time.

R – Lunar Rush: Original - 100/160/220 (+0.6 AP) damage. 20/16/12s CD. 900 range. 50/65/80 mana. Current - 100/160/220 (+0.6 AP) damage. 25/20/15s CD. 825 range. 50/65/80 mana.

Context - It’s listed at 825 range, while her Q is listed as 830, near identical considering melee range is 125-175. But in the actual game they’re a large chunk apart especially if the end orb radius is taken into consideration, that makes it look significantly smaller than the 830 range Q. Resetting her ult is critical yet in her current state there is rarely a possibility to wait for Q to come back up so it must be used twice immediately leading to my next point. The double cast cost makes her ult essentially cost 160 mana.

Notably, her ult doesn't reset on kills like Akali's does, nor can it act as an escape like other gap closers do (Jax anyone?).

Possible Band-Aid fixes: Make her ult range actually match her Q range. Decrease the CD by 2 seconds. Allow resets on kills to match Akali. Allow her to use her ult like others use their gap closers, to jump to allies or wards for an escape as she is the only all-in melee mage with no escape to speak of.

QoL fix: Her ult goes on CD if the target dies before she hits it. Other champions had this issue and they were supposedly fixed, why was Diana left out? Please fix this, it should be easy to do and is incredibly annoying when it happens in clutch moments.

That was a lot harder than expected. I hope you consider our thoughts and how unhappy we are with the state of our favourite champion considering the massive amount of time we’ve been waiting. We can’t emphasize enough that if we wanted a powerful champion we could have just moved on to another champion. There’s similar champions which do a much better job and are easier to close games with, but to us they’re just plain not fun. Anything at all to tide us over until the rework would be appreciated.

I’d like to end on the note saying please do not be afraid to try crazy experiments on the PBE. We’d all be glad to test whacky stuff week after week even if none of it sees the light of day. At this point any glimmer of light is appealing.

92 Comments

Aleitei29 votes

Diana can afford to have a few buffs considering they have nerfed her very harshly with no compensation. Even if it's not damage buffs, there's also cooldown and range buffs suggested in the OP. She has been ignored for far too long honestly.

Neo Cyrus10 votes

This is one of the people who I spoke to, to help me prepare this post. I wish some of the others would say something.

Rithensoul1 votes

i agree she needs a slight buff but you said her current build path doesnt allow for cdr? i almost always have 40%cdr... my runes and passives alone give me 20% cdr which i think is way better then the other slight buffs they would give

Neo Cyrus1 votes

You're in Bronze 4. Using weak builds/runes/masteries there doesn't make squat of a difference. At higher Elos you'd be destroyed for making such poor decisions.

MEMEME67011 votes

I feel like you put a lot of effort into this post, and were pretty off track. A HUGE AMOUNT of your post could be summarized as "I have spoken to several high level Diana players, and we want her buffed." And that's a big problem, because Riot already knows this, has already talked about this, multiple times.

What you need to do is give them what they don't know. Now, it's definitely possible to extract it from your post, but it's a lot more ambiguous. For example, on her Q you say "Possible Band-Aid fixes: Reverting damage to 70/110/150/190/230 (+0.7 AP). Decreasing CD by 1 second to 9/8/7/6/5 due to the fact that her build paths currently don’t allow for any CDR."

This can mean any one of "Crescent Strike is easy to hit but feels weak.", "Crescent Strike is very hard to hit and does not do enough for this difficulty" "Crescent Strike is a large portion of my bread and butter and should feel scary, but it isn't" "Crescent Strike actually seems fine, but because Diana is an assassin and one of her skills does no damage, and isn't extremely good at helping her do more damage (Akali's shroud lets her wait for cds, Veigar's Event Horizon lets him get his combo off, etc) she needs extra damage somewhere." Or a lot of other things.

I think it would be much better if you told Riot stuff like that. You don't have the game design skills Riot employees do, (Unless you do, in which case I suggest you apply) but what you do have is extensive experience with Diana. So instead of trying to 'translate' your extensive experience into Riot's corner, just give them the raw info, and let them take it at face value.

You do have a fair bit of information that is like this, but I feel you've put too much effort into the numbers portion of it.

Also, don't try to compare Diana to other champions unless it's a VERY DIRECT comparison. Very direct is something like, Rocket Grab compared to Death Sentence. And even then, the amount of other factors you need to take into account (characters other skills, the cast times, mana pool vs cost vs damage vs cooldown) are still immense and likely make the comparison moot anyway.

For example: You compare her passive to Annie's and say she should be able to keep her passive stacks like Annie does. But Annie's passive stacks are a major gameplay focal point of her character. She has a difficult time csing without Q, and Q raises (and then uses) her passive. Whereas for Diana, her passive seems to be just a reward for autoattacking things. Not to mention Diana being able to hold hers is potentially super abusive in lane, as she could just zone you with it until she needs to cs, cs(passive proc) auto, auto, and zone you again. That's what, a 2.5 second downtime max on the zoning potential?

Overall, I do think your post is fairly good, but I feel it could be presented a lot better for the experience you have with the character and the time you put into gathering others' opinions.

Beardedheathen2 votes

Not to mention Diana being able to hold hers is potentially super abusive in lane, as she could just zone you with it until she needs to cs, cs(passive proc) auto, auto, and zone you again. That's what, a 2.5 second downtime max on the zoning potential?

Oh you mean like ziggs does?

MEMEME6702 votes

I see you didn't read my whole post, because I distinctly say making changes based on the fact that other champs can do it isn't a good idea, because Diana is Diana, not Ziggs or Akali or Ashe or anyone else.

And I mean really, Ziggs? Ziggs the ranged poke mage? Ziggs the character who, after using his passive, has to wait 10 seconds or start using up his mana to get it again?

If ziggs got his passive every 3 autos, then we could talk.

But I don't live in that world.

Freudical9 votes

I definitely agree that Diana needs some love to get her to a point where she's fun to play. The quality of life things you talked about (passive indicators, syncing the ranges of her animations/spells to work well together, etc.) look like a great place to start. While I concede she needs strict upgrades in power to get her on the same level as other champions of her type (including, as you described, Akali, Fizz), MEMEME670 had it right about discussing the flavor of the changes proposed, rather than numbers.

Personally, I'm with what Riot has previously said about making changes to her; taking away more of the sheer, DFG-fueled nuke she has in favor of adding some beef to her teamfighting ability would round out both her character flavor of being such a steely fighter for her cause, and at the same time giving her a gameplay twist that (to me at least) is more in line with her original design. Perhaps, as you said, adding a touch or two to her E's usability to promote it's use, as it seems like that's a light spot, mechanics-wise, in her kit; it could have a small bonus tacked-on to help pump her up a notch.

What do you think? I might've missed it in your post, but I didn't see you talk about what you enjoy about her play style. Do you prefer and hold onto her identity as a no-outs assassin, or do you play her as a bulkier, front-line toughy?

Raising this discussion is something I've been super wanting to do for a while, and I'm glad to see it happen.

RiotVesh9 votes

Diana is a difficult problem to adjust with just numbers because she is a tank burst assassin with an all-in pattern and no success case except for taking a guy 100 to 0. As far as any potential gameplay balance updates, that's up to our Core Gameplay team who handles patch to patch balance changes.

We actually had a really passionate producer who loves Diana who did some experimenting during our latest Thunderdome (sorta like a hackathon where you can work on anything you want) and he had some cool ideas. Diana is definitely on the board for changes, and it seems from the many threads like this that have been made in the past that people are fairly opposed to a bruiser direction. The key will be pushing her more towards the light fighter/assassin pattern in healthy ways which means not just going Q->R->R and mudering a guy.

Phoenix Kotori 3 votes

it seems from the many threads like this that have been made in the past that people are fairly opposed to a bruiser direction.

Personally I just want her to be decent play again, I don't particularly care which direction that takes her.

C9 Scott Free 2 votes

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=4226300&highlight=hell+riot+love+diana&page=93

This contains an easy solution for you. And QRR doesn't get the job done unless way far ahead which is a whole other issue . You were in this thread for a while so please visit it. These boards are not mobile friendly.

Gixia8 votes

Diana is definitely on the board for changes, and it seems from the many threads like this that have been made in the past that people are fairly opposed to a bruiser direction.

I don't know, everytime this comes up, there seems to be just as many people who DO want her to go in a bruiser direction. Which seems to be the problem with Diana, the fanbase seems split fairly evenly in terms of what they want her to be. Maybe not right down the middle, but close enough that no matter which direction she goes in, people are gonna be upset about it.

That said, if you look at what her kit actually does as opposed to just the numbers on it, it seems clear that she was intended to be a fighter, and even some other Riot posters have said in the past that was the original intention and they're unclear as to how she became an assassin in the first place (though I suspect this stems from her initial release being completely and absolutely DEGENERATE in every possible way), so the fighter direction DOES seem like it would make more sense...

But then, I'm biased. I'm on the fighter side. That's how I play her, that's how I want her to be. There are already a ton of AP assassins. There's barely even a handful of AP fighters.

Rafael Merlo2 votes

This is something alike I said far down below. Even I prefering the Assassin-playstyle I agree the fanbase is divided, and Diana as a fighter is different from assassin and yet different from bruiser also.

Neo Cyrus6 votes

For the record none of us who prepared this thread want a "bruiser" direction. Look at the current Gragas, that's an AP bruiser, we predicted that before it happened. We don't Diana to head in that direction. Any bruiser rework will result in her still being wrecked late game by ADs due a lot to the lack of spell vamp while AD champs get tons of life leech. That and the obvious that ADs have a much easier time taking objectives. If you saw a chart of win rates relative to how long games go you'd see the longer it goes as an AP bruiser vs AD champs the lower the win rate.

And if you saw all the previous threads you'd know that nearly everyone were against the bruiser ideas they threw out. We want a killer, not a tank.

DGWolffumbra1 votes

************I don't know what you could possibly classify this as (probably fighter), but I'd love for Diana's power to be shifted from R to Q, W, and E.

R is basically what makes her act like an assassin, gives her the feast/famine nature she's known for, and makes her way too similar to Akali. W's shield is way too weak to do its job unless she's rather fed, and Moonfall's range/CD are really sad. Q is much better off than both of them, but it's still pretty mediocre. I'd like something more akin to this:

Passive:

  • Increase her AS a smidgen and allow the passive to proc more behind her -- mostly a jungle/teamfight QoL change that really reverts an annoying nerf from a few patches ago. I think the damage from it is fine, myself. Buffing this massively is only a good idea if you want her to go the bruiser route, which I really don't.

Q:

  • Old: Deals 60 / 95 / 130 / 165 / 200 (+ 70% AP) damage.
  • New: Deals 80 / 130 / 180 / 230 / 280 (+ 75% AP) damage.
  • CD slightly reduced (8 / 7 / 6 / 5 / 4).
  • Logic: I don't want to buff Q to the point where she values poke more than direct engagement. Thus, buffs to bases and minor buffs to scaling seem the most appropriate here to help her out when she's not fed.

W:

  • Old: Magic Damage per Orb: 22 / 34 / 46 / 58 / 70 (+ 20% AP) Shield Strength: 40 / 55 / 70 / 85 / 100 (+ 30% AP)
  • New: Magic Damage per Orb: 30 / 48 / 66 / 84 / 102 (+ 30% AP) Shield Strength: 45 / 72 / 99 / 126 / 153 (+ 45% AP)
  • CD now scales with rank (10 / 9 / 8 / 7 / 6).
  • Logic: Diana needs some controllable but limited sustain to ensure her fighter status, and Pale Cascade is perfect for that. If W is actually GOOD, she doesn't need to build spell vamp for survivability, and AP gives her both damage and sustain, so it greatly opens up her itemization options. It also allows her to have great dueling potential, but be vulnerable if she tries to recklessly dive into teamfights.
    Instead of insanely buffing W with its way too long 10 second CD, it is more logical to buff it by ~50% over its meekly live version and lower its CD. To control her laning phase, it seemed logical to lower its CD by rank so she doesn't have ridiculous poke AND sustain in lane (she has to choose one or go half and half).

E: Old: 250 range, 26 / 24 / 22 / 20 / 18 second CD, 35 / 40 / 45 / 50 / 55% slow. New: 300 range, 20 / 17 / 14 / 11 / 8 second CD, 40% slow at all ranks.

  • Logic: Simple buff to its pathetic range and long CD. Seems a bit too strong if I keep it's 55% slow at max rank.

R: Old: Deals 100 / 160 / 220 (+ 60% AP) magic damage; 25 / 20 / 15 second cooldown. New: Deals 30 / 48 / 66 (+ 20% AP) magic damage; 20 / 15 / 10 second cooldown.

  • Logic: This had to be done if Diana is to eliminate her problems. R now does about 40% of its old damage, and should be used mostly for mobility purposes only. Because R is no longer a major source of damage, the highly putative 25/20/15 second CD for misusing it seems out of place.
Asatorrr2 votes

I really hope that the forums are not the only source of opinions on what direction to take her...

Personally I feel like people confuse "assassin" with "kills people super easy" and "little counterplay" and depending on how that kit works, you're gonna have disappointed people who were on the assassin side of things just because she still isn't the OP champion they envisioned.

C9 Scott Free 2 votes

I would like to point out that when I made a mega thread on Diana in January there was heavy opposition to the bruiser change. A lot of people commenting weren't even Diana players but just people with an AP bruiser fascination which current itemization does not support really. Not in the 2.7 k health while dealing respectable damage sense. Now two very crucial things to remember is that more is supposed to matter and your players are too. Lore wise she should be an assassin as to be the opposition of Leona. Leona's views and playstyle reflect her desire to protect and help without killing. Diana should be about the killing but also a sense of recklessness which her current playstyle emulates beautifully. Kill or be killed. No way out. Making her a bruiser means lowering kill potential which puts her more in the middle of the scales and uncomfortably close to Leona in play style and items. The thing is, the majority of Diana players I have played with, against and talked to play assassin Diana. Which, based on Riot's claims, they would care about keeping these players happy. If you do not wish to alienate long time fans of her such as myself I would appreciate you keeping her more in line as an assassin. There are enough initiation tanks and bruiser regardless of Roa or Hydra being built. However, people really seem to have an AP bruiser obsession which I think should be fulfilled. So, do a lore event for Targon where you introduce an ancient text revealing the prince of twilight meant to be guarded by the chosen of the moon and sun leafing to the unification of tribes. With this Riot gets a fun lore event for us, Diana players get to keep their favorite champ and people wanting AP bruisers to be a thing get one as well . All parties win and we get to have one less champion on the overnerfed list. I really hope this read and payed attention to. Please respond.

Pinky272 votes

I just got finished watching Shiphtur (on his smurf, Chapapaya) play Diana and it was an eye-opening experience. The way he played the game has me wondering if the problem is in the players' perception of Diana rather than in the champion herself.

In the 37 minute game he used that QRR combo only a single time to quickly finish off the enemy's ADC after a teamfight had ended. His pattern through much of the game was Q+R onto a target, Moonsilver proc and Pale Cascade detonation on target, then R out of the trade, usually onto a minion (similar to the trades used by Irelia, albeit more bursty and less sustained). When used in teamfights, he'd then briefly stay away from the battle and reengage once his cooldowns were ready.

Simply put, he used a more careful approach to deal damage and escape extended trades in the style of an assassin (rather than the all-in fighter style many players fall into).

Even more exciting than seeing a well-played Diana was seeing how well her current kit embodies her lore. Not only does the quick, systematic elimination of targets fit her role as the heretic cutting down the Solari elders, it also runs perfectly opposite Leona's style of initiating long and intentionally drawn-out fights.

Here's a link to the Match History of the game I watched (in case whoever reads this wants to take a look at the builds or details of the game): http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1483246415/208282852

Neo Cyrus10 votes

I hope at the very least the tremendous response to this thread has shown you guys that there is a lot of interest in this champion and that we'd like to see something done this year. The time she's been left in this state is already into ridiculous territory. Have you spoken to anyone on this Core Gameplay team?

Parrot stating that Diana is not a priority makes me wonder why in god's name was Sona reworked? No one wanted that. Hell, no one is even happy with it. If you took a poll of which champ needed its kit reworked 99% would have voted just about anything but Sona.

Rafael Merlo1 votes

Well, in fact there's tons of interest of the playerbase more on Diana than on Sona, but I and at least 4 other summoners of my university here in Brazil are very happy with Sona's new kit; she's a lot more powerful, fun-feeling and fulfilling in that new form.

But, I agree. I feel that Riot is giving so few attention to the playerbase interest in what matters for the order and schedule of Reworks. And I agree that this should not be the first and foremost point to consider ("...cought, Viktor rework is coming and finally I maybe will be able to buy 2 or 3 evolutions of the Hex Core!"), but this needs to be valued more than they are doing right now.

Catbat1 votes

Diana is a difficult problem to adjust with just numbers because she is a tank burst assassin with an all-in pattern and no success case except for taking a guy 100 to 0. As far as any potential gameplay balance updates, that's up to our Core Gameplay team who handles patch to patch balance changes.

We actually had a really passionate producer who loves Diana who did some experimenting during our latest Thunderdome (sorta like a hackathon where you can work on anything you want) and he had some cool ideas. Diana is definitely on the board for changes, and it seems from the many threads like this that have been made in the past that people are fairly opposed to a bruiser direction. The key will be pushing her more towards the light fighter/assassin pattern in healthy ways which means not just going Q->R->R and mudering a guy.

I feel that Diana's kit lacks utility and some other things that would bring in more patterns and I discussed a few ideas with positive reactions listed in http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay/5dQh77eX-diana-and-utility-making-her-kit-more-like-changing-nature-of-the-moon-vesh-and-ironstylus

The most wanted one however was to make Diana's Q arc from different angles which would remove some side issues making her stronger in certain lanes just due to the curve.

bunies1 votes

you could atleast undo some of the mass nerfs you did to her so she is something besides a troll pick

Savage Weeknd1 votes

Hello Riot Team,

I am a die-hard DIANA (Scorn the Moon) fan..... and although you “just” recently launched the patch 5.3 (which btw I still haven’t been able to download and play...) where Diana’s Pale Cascades rotation rate has increase, her ability damage is in desperate need of T.L.C.. I do believe that Diana has the potential to be an opponent that shouldn’t be underestimated.. but it is truly disappointing how nerfed she is.. If I may give a suggestion or two on how she could be less of a liability as a laner (top or mid) and ultimately to her team earlier (or throughout) in the game (since she doesn’t obtain her Ult until level 6). It would be that she could have a neat "passive ability" added to one of her abilities such as “Moonfall”, like a DOT. I also believe that “Lunar Rush” could have an increased range (Just a bit more than 825) or a refresh feature if she is able to kill enemy do to “Lunar Rush”. Considering how other characters (like her archenemy Leona) have a flashy visual ultimate, I was thinking she could use one as well. Yes her “Lunar Rush” has an animation that quickly teleports her to her enemy but i was thinking one that would honor her whole persona as the "scorn of the moon". One thing that makes me go bonkers is whenever I execute Diana’s “Lunar Rush”, she can be hit by any attack as she is teleporting ultimately killing her easily... now i know that if i am low health it is inevitable to die but maybe she could somehow dodge attacks as she is teleporting or be immune to attacks. Maybe her “Pale Cascade could have an increase on its damage absorption (or a running/ attack speed increase). Aside from those suggestions i do firmly believe that although Diana is a melee character, her ability damage is insignificantly low.

P.s. It would be awesome if one of you guys from the riot team would give a small feedback to this suggestive post.

Die-Hard Diana fan,

Jonathan

Pushover5 votes

I think Diana definitely needs buffs, she's fun to play but fairly abysmal right now. Part of the problem is identity. Where do you see Diana playing? Is she a burst mage/assassin? Is she a fighter? I personally lean more towards making her a better fighter champion, since melee AP assassin is covered fairly well with Akali and Fizz. I think the one problem that Diana has consistently had is that her burst has very little couterplay short of "dodge her Q." If she lands her Q, WRER auto is a lot of burst, especially if R gives a passive stack.

I would like to see R go on a 1 second cooldown when she ults a marked target, allowing the target at least a small window to not simply explode . It still allows her to get around a teamfight, but she doesn't take all of someone's health in half a second after landing Q when ahead. It also promotes a little autoattacking, possibly allowing the R to give passive stacks so that QRRauto does not do so much damage. With regards to the R QoL change, Irelia doesn't get a reset on Bladesurge if the target dies before she ends up hitting the target, so that would need to get fixed too.

In terms of making Diana feel more fightery: She would be building more tank stats and less raw AP. Therefore, she would not necessarily need higher AP ratios, and instead get higher base numbers. Passive: Attack speed buffs would be good, so she can get more done with just autoattacks. Q: Currently she could build a Nashor's Tooth, and if you make her closer to a fighter, she would be more likely to get a Nashor's, especially if her base attack speed got buffed. Maybe buff the base damage while reducing the AP ratio if she is to be a fighter. Could use a bit lower mana cost considering she probably needs to use it to farm against some champions, yet still needs mana to harass/allin at level 6. W: Increasing the base shield would make her feel better about being a fighter. Not sure how to feel about the stacking shield, it could get obnoxious fighting her toplane if she is able to get a huge shield as she allins you. That might be just what she needs, though. E: Does this skill currently even do anything? Definitely agree this needs buffs. It's IMO one her most unique abilities, and it's a shame that it's basically useless right now. R: As far as double casting (or triple casting in this case), I think as I outlined earlier, it's somewhat unhealthy with the amount of burst she can put out (I have to imagine it's higher than Akali's double Q, possibly higher than Fizz's burst.) I think her ult is fine as long as her E gets better, since right now, she ults and the other person can easily get away. As far as resetting on kills, I would say no, because then when she's ahead, she becomes like Kha'zix, eating a low HP target, jumping onto the next target with Q and ult, eating them with ult, jump to next target, etc.

Maybe you don't want Diana as a fighter, and instead as an AP assassin, but I think she should not have the tools to be a cheesy DFG burst mage. What role do you see Diana playing?

Regarding the final paragraph, why do you want things to see the light of day? You are asking about Diana! Changes should be seeing the light of the moon ;P

EDIT: English. I can't speaks it.

The Inspectre4 votes

I feel you on the mismatch between R range and Q range, one of the worst feelings when playing Diana is landing Q but not being in range to cast R. She also has a lot of mana issues for a champion that doesn't really build mana items except for an occasional Lich Bane or a rare Frozen Heart. Making R cost 15 more mana per rank is like making other ultimates cost 30 more mana per rank. The 70 mana cost on E is basically saying, "Don't use this skill for anything other than going all in", if she has to take the risk of getting into melee range pre-6, she shouldn't have to use so much mana once she gets there. Another point I want to touch on is Diana's base AD. Currently she has the lowest base AD of any melee champion. I understand that it's intended to be that way because of her passive, but I really don't think 20% attack speed justifies a melee champion with such low base AD.

All of this being said, there is still a strong possibility that no band-aid or QOL buffs are going to happen in the near future. There is a history of champions that aren't given these types of changes even though they would just be a small improvement for the few people that play them (Gangplank's E still has a cast time after over 2 years). I hope somebody looks at this and considers making some changes but the chances of that happening don't seem very high.

HeartlessWytche4 votes

I'm of the opinion that Diana does need some QoL buffs.

BUT many of the numerical buffs you outlined above would make her broken OP. She's already impossible to deal with if fed, the issue is that it's really hard to get her fed.

Instead some changes to reduce her fed power and increase her ability to NotUtterlySuck when not fed would be appreciated.

The one that springs to mind is the Ratio buff on her passive, which feels awesome when you proc it... but tends to only get procced once or twice unless you are fed and thus able to lolignore enemy focus/CC.

I'd suggest trying a -.2 AP ratio nerf to her passive, in return for a base damage increase on her Q (So she can still do damage when behind, as Q is her main poke spell.) a mana cost reduction on her E (Especially important for laning.... so a cost that scales up to 70 would be fine.) and a range increase to her ult. (50-100 range on it, so it's easier to catch a target fleeing with the Q-R combo.) Also of note is the INCREDIBLE frustration of ulting and getting knocked up (Or your target dies.) before you arrive at target, causing your ult to go to CD even if your target had moonlight on them. Please cause the ult to go on CD on arrival at target, not at start of dash. Similar to the Lux ult changes a couple patches back. (Note: This removes a lot of counter play, but her being utterly shut down with a single well timed knock-up is kind of BS when she's not that OP anyways.)

My note with my proposed changes are that the R increase helps fed Diana more than behind-Diana, it's just a change that would make her feel better all around in my opinion.

Sunfield3 votes

I love Diana and I want to see her viable, but... those are massive buffs. Its like reverting her to her release state and further. You end up with poke mage assasin bruiser. Riot has stated that Diana's design either makes her overpowered or underpowered, there is no middle ground. When she gets ahead, she is incredibly frustrating to deal with.

Thats why a rework is due, but I dont think its happening any time soon

Neo Cyrus6 votes

Those were just lists of possibilities to consider... No one is saying apply them all. We want any sort of temporary fix to hold things over and that was a pretty comprehensive list. She's weak enough that there is incredible room for buffs without her becoming a top pick for all the reasons explained in that book above.

Rare Chu Jelly3 votes

A lot of these changes are well thought out, but some of them are just plain bias towards Diana and wishing for her to be incredibly strong again. But I do agree that she needs tweaking to be made into a healthy, strong champion.

Deep Terror Nami3 votes

Make second Lunar Rush free and useable on allies/wards etc., or make Lunar Rush not remove the Moonlight debuff from all targets, only the one you rush (allowing you to rush each target you hit with Crescent Strike as long as you have mana, until Moonlight falls off. Reduce the time Moonlight stays on targets).

Ah I also forgot, Lunar Rush is a dash (or...rush) rather than a teleport, even though it's almost instant. This cripples the ultimate by very simple mechanics sometimes; add immunity to CC during the dash maybe?

Tahalden3 votes

The problem with Diana still is the same as before though: She has an ambiguous identity. Is she a bruiser/fighter? Or is she an assassin? Her shield, passive and vacuum abilities suggest she's a bruiser/fighter, while she has the damage potential on in her kit to be an assassin. A tanky assassin is very dangerous to have in the game and is essentially not balanceable. That's why she was nerfed in the first place: too tanky to be an assassin, and there was no way she could be buffed or nerfed elsewhere to give her a healthier play pattern. She needs a kit rework.

Granted, it's been a while since the nerf bat has hit. it'd be great to know where she stands in the grand scheme of things. My guess is not for a while though... :-(

Now don't get me wrong: I love Diana as well. She has a very interesting concept going on and in my opinion the assassin aspect of her kit ruins that a bit. A lot of potential for an AP fighter like we've not had before. If only the designers had infinite amounts of time... :-p

The Ruined King3 votes

I wasn't one of the ones OP spoke to, but I do consider myself a Diana main even though lately I've been finding myself playing Vi in ranked moreso than her. Vi and Diana are my "babies" in this game and I love playing them both a lot, Vi is just a lot more viable(haha get it) in the current meta because, as OP listed there are way more champions(Fizz, Akali, etc) that can do what Diana can do except way better. I've seen posts about Diana possibly getting reworked into a straight bruiser/fighter by Vesh, and really I just hope those never go through, I like her being an assassin/bruiser. TLDR: Silver 1 Diana main with 66% winrate on her supports OP's band-aid solution.

imperatorem3 votes

bruh ziggs op mid

Binxy Prime2 votes

I would love to see some of these changes. Also I would like the headdress back please.

Killlua2 votes

I'd love Diana to be viable because I think she's funner to play against when strong / "op" than a lot of other champions. I hope a few buffs or the rework happen soon.

thatgirlsarah2 votes

I wish Diana would get more recognition. Even thought she was nerfed, she's still a fun champion. Besides, cancelling Katarina's ult is fun! :D

GanksLikeGast0n2 votes

Thank you so much for supporting Diana at upper level play. I may only be a bronzie currently, but Diana is easily one of my favorite champions, albeit I run jungle Diana, not mid Diana. I wholeheartedly support this post, especially the proposed fixes to her ultimate. I have desperately wished for it to allow her to Dash towards allied units since I started playing her, and feel that this alone would solve the majority of her current problems. Additionally changing the range of her ult to match that of her Q would be a HUGE QOL improvement.

MarhsallLee672 votes

I really love Diana; she's one of my favorite champions in LoL right now. I'm just really paranoid that any change rito makes to her will take away what makes Diana the type of champion that she is.

CervezaExtra2 votes

I was really big on playing Diana when she came out (as most people were) and even for a little bit after they brought out that ridiculous nerf. I definitely would like to get back into playing her but as stated here she is definitely no where near as viable as the other popular assassins. I definitely don't have the experience that most of you do with her but I support this plea, as she is a super cool champ!

Fingers crossed that this post helps her get some more attention from RIOT.

U Just Got Slain2 votes

I could not have agreed with the whole E topic. I find myself only using it once I ult, shouldn't an ability be used more than in just once situation? Overall great thread, and I hope Riot will respond :/.

Shıma2 votes

Even if it's something small, Diana deserves SOMETHING.. Maybe all abilities inflict moonlight and her passive does as well. Anytime she uses the power of the moon it inflicts the debuff. Just something like that would make her a lot more reliable.

Xandun2 votes

FInally. Someone who takes the time too look at all the stats and the past. Diana was a great champ before they nerfed her. Then more and more champs came around making her unviable. I miss having her as a Mid laner/ Jungler. She was one of my favorites. I know I'm not high ranking like a lot of people but I love Diana and I would love too have her back. So riot quit buffing and hugging your favorites and listen too the community please.

Barrel Roll 4202 votes

I love Diana. I think what you say would be legit if I thought she was meant to play in the Rift. I honestly believe Diana was created for Treeline. She sucks in 5's that's true as it is, but in Treeline she truly is a Goddess.

Asatorrr1 votes

Naturally tanky AP characters with a lot of burst and high ratios (aka tons of damage) are not healthy. The itemization for ap damage and defense is just too good (zhonyas, abyssal, RoA, even chalice has mr) because ap damage dealers are supposed to be uber squishy. Diana isn't squishy, but she has all the same damage.

The idea behind her creation was "she has no escapes, so we will make her tanky." Come to find out, that kind of champion is broken. So now there is a big question that has to be answered--does she keep the burst or the tankiness? IMO, there's already a lot of assassins and bursty AP champs, but there's no AP fighters. I'd have more fun weaving abilities and making a play than firing a skillshot and clicking R twice.

Killer X 121 votes

You wanna get rid of her W then maybe?

rtbf379078921 votes

Wow im glad to see im not the only other person who cares about Diana. A lot of those are great ideas. Ive seen on another post someone said her E and R should be swapped. I agree with that, but only if When her new ult which was her E stuns and reels the enemies in, Diana ascends into a form that literally radiate moonlight. It should also have a second cast for her ult. Every enemy afflicted by moonlight no matter how far even if they aren't within the second cast radius should take the damage. almost like a earths ult but on enemies afflicted by moonlight. i stated it twice to get it into your heads. Her new E lunar rush can still still work the same but on champion kills and assist her Q should reset as well so that she can escape a sticky situation. Those changes alone i think would really help her become more of a fighter. The numbers to me don't matter. i would still play her cause thats my baby gurr

Diana x Me1 votes

Diana means a great deal to me and for a lot of reasons. Some simple like i just enjoy using her and others more sentimental for ex. she shares my mother's name. I have played over 800 ranked games and climbed to Plat 2 with her. So I have ended up becoming pretty attached. Pretty much love her to death.

So yeah like Neo I'm pretty damn determined to see that she gets attention. She has been in a bad spot for far to long .

We all know there are those who prefer the assassin archetype and the more durable but less damage fighter archetype. The question is where does she belong. Personally I like the flexibility of being able to go assassin or fighter. Thematically she fits both. Her kit allows her to do both. Now here is the issue and the elephant in the closet that we all know resides there. She is very very hard to balance and there is a line as thin as a razors edge where she is either broken or underpowered and that's due to a poorly thought out kit.

I have a few suggestions and thoughts. Like i said before i enjoy bot h styles so most of these will worked on satisfying both sides.

  • Pale Cascade

    The orbs as you all know inflict the damage and if all of them pop the shield refreshes. So i suggest changing the shields strength into a health based ratio. Orb damage stays AP, base damage stays the same.

    ○Pale Cascade hitbox increased to 300.

    ●Lunar Rush 
 
 ○Range increased to match Crescent strike and again provide a   passive stack upon use.  So both at 900 range. 

 ○ Change it from a dash to a teleport.

○ Lower cool down on both Q and R

●Moonsilver Blade

○ Passive needs to have its Aoe returned to prenerf value.

○ Remove 20% Bonus attack speed and increase atk speed per level or make it scale each time ultimate is upgraded. Note -The passive 20% actually gates the effectiveness of bonus attack speed.

I thought i would share an idea if moon fall was changed to an ult. It could push or pull just like the moon does to the ocean tides.

I would also like to incorporate the phases of the moon in her kit in some way.

Just a few simple things. Not saying implement all of them but one or two would be nice.

Also sorry for disorganization doing this on a phone on new forums is quite difficult.

C9 Squeeky 1 votes

Isn't Mordekaiser a melee mage? But that's besides the point. Good post. +1

iRetribution1 votes

I like the Diana Passive changes, especially keeping her passive instead of it resetting after a few seconds. That alone would make me want to go back to Diana :D Im only Silver, I know, but I stopped playing her in preS3 simply because I couldn't finish a game if I got ahead which bugged me to no end.

Something that I would like to see (saw it somewhere once, can't find it anymore) would be making her R a skill shot with an AoE slow that resets on passive procs/gets halved CD on landing Q. Wish I could find the post, was from over a year ago, whoever wrote it changed her E too and made her whole kit feel right while removing some safety concerns.

Neo Cyrus1 votes

So a rework for Ryze is in the works while there are still no plans for Diana?

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