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Crit Discussion

Stephenizgod··3 votes·723 views

I am going to give my opinion on Crit, but I am not saying my opinion is the only correct one. This is an open discussion so please no toxicity or unnecessary/irrelevant arguments.

Hoping for people to discuss the best option for Critical Strikes here, I personally believe we need to remove it but I want to hear other peoples opinions. There are a lot of Crit posts lately, as there is for any Topic the boards blows up about, but I still thought it was be nice to have an open discussion on it. There are always differing opinions and someone might be able to convince you of one thing or another, completely changing your views.

Personally I think Crit is an unhealthy mechanic, it is a form of RNG that can not be played around. You pray you get a crit, the enemy prays you don't. You can buy more Crit, but there will always be that one time where if you had just Crit, you would have won. No matter how good you play, if you have to rely on Crits, it sort of removes a lot of power from your own play.

Guaranteed Crits, such as Jhin's 4th shot or Caitlyns Passive, are balanced in my opinion. Both you and the enemy know it is coming because there are normally obvious visual cues. Increase in Crit Chance, is not balanced in my opinion. There is no way of telling when one will Crit and there is normally not a visual cue to let you know someone is about to Crit. You can play around guaranteed crits, you can not play around Crit Chance.

So how would one fill the role that Crits offer certain champs? I believe we should keep guaranteed crits, perhaps even expand on it (take away Vayne's %hp true damage and give her guaranteed crit? no? i guess i just hate Vayne lol). Basically give more guaranteed crits to champions where it makes sense, this way these champs retain their power but both sides have the ability to play around it.

Now what about Crit Chance? I think we should replace it with something similar, something that gives increased windows of damage opportunities, but that can be played around so that whoever is luckier doesn't win purely off of that. I am not the greatest at this but I came up with something similar to Cait's passive or a stacking mechanic.

So Crit Chance will be replaced with Adept Strike (Temp Name, WIP). Let's say you buy an item with like 10 Adept Strike on it. Every time you attack an enemy it adds 1 stack out of 10 of Adept Strike to that enemy. Now if you attack 3 enemies once, they will all have 1 out of 10 stacks and this will remain for a long time. Your 10th attack will consume the stack and will act very similar to a Crit.

Now lets say you buy 30 more Adept Strike, you now have 40, so your auto's will give 4 out of 10 stacks. If you attack 3 times, your 3rd auto will Strike and they will be left with 2 out of 10 stacks because 3 Auto's is 12 stacks, it only requires 10 to Strike so there is 2 stacks left over. This is your incentive to buy more Adept Strike. Infinity Edge doesn't need to be changed because it will just increase the damage of the Strike.

The issue with this is it makes Crits more reliable, sure 50% crit means you will generally Crit every other auto but it is random to a degree and you may not Crit that often. This mechanic will guarantee you crit every other Auto, so in order to balance this there are a few options. A) You reduce the damage of the Strikes and add in more options to increase this damage so they need to build more items in order to hit their powerspikes or B) You add a new stat to defensive items that increase the total stacks, like Randuins can add like X amount of Adept Strike Stacks required for every X% of Hp/Armor.

I am well aware my mechanic is not a perfect system, but lets be honest here, Crit Chance is far from perfect itself. It is unreliable, it is not very clear, and it doesn't give a fair experience for either player. This kind of RNG needs to be removed, i understand there is a lot of issue with the Jungle Plants but we have been living with something similar for a very long time. Critical Chance is just not a balanced mechanic until late game when ADC's have so much of it they are basically Critting every hit. Which still isnt very fair to me, but its a lot more fair then "OMG if i had just crit i could have got them both" or "omg I played way better but they got 3 crits in a row and I died because of it!".

So I am looking forward to your opinions and criticisms, if we can come up with a good mechanic, it is entirely possible Riot will see it and at least try it out.

17 Comments

Asayake 5150glow2 votes

Big one for this: Early game Tryndamere

I approve :)

Stephenizgod1 votes

Ah i totally forgot about Tryndamere, he suffers from both ends of the spectrum as far as the Crit problem. Relies on it to be strong, but not fair for his opponents.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

Ah i totally forgot about Tryndamere, he suffers from both ends of the spectrum as far as the Crit problem. Relies on it to be strong, but not fair for his opponents.

It's why you can never fight him early - a random crit will destroy you. So really, the threat of the random crit makes his lvl 1 and lvl 2 so bs...

InfernoFøx1 votes

Thats the point of his kit. That is all he can do. Up close he is a threat. But play safe or play some ranged or CC heavy champion. Hes difficult because you underestimate the crits early game. That is your fault. Not his kits fault

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

Thats the point of his kit. That is all he can do. Up close he is a threat. But play safe or play some ranged or CC heavy champion. Hes difficult because you underestimate the crits early game. That is your fault. Not his kits fault

But it is his kit's fault how he is sometimes as strong as a tower, and other times do less damage than a melee minion.

Also playing safe is kinda broad, but if it's done well then yes it works. But to be sure we mean the same thing, lets remember that Trynd has a heavy slow on his W and a good gapcloser on his E, and usually runs ghost.

Stephenizgod1 votes

Yea thats why Riot wants to change that, its just not fair gameplay for either player.

PraisinthatSun1 votes

The few times I have laned against a tryndamere, it is so annoying when he can just randomly take out 80% of my HP at level 2-3 with only a couple of auto attacks.

Ralanr1 votes

Honestly I'm not a big fan of crits as it feels like it turns sustained damage into a form of sustained burst.

Stephenizgod1 votes

I don't mind Crits, but the RNG of them is a huge problem for me. I have 1% crit chance in all my AD pages and it is funny to hit a Crit early game, but I am well aware how unfair it is that I get lane advantage or I win a trade because of a 1% crit chance rune.

InfernoFøx1 votes

I see where you are coming with this. But you need to not think about the people fighting against it, but the people playing it. Yes many champions rely on critical chance. But not many. Out of all the champions it includes Caitlyn Draven Gangplank Jhin Jinx MasterYi MissFortune Pantheon Shaco Talon Tryndamere Tristana Varus Vayne Yasuo. and some of these choices can be argued against. Now of the 15 i picked out. They RELY on crit. This is their main source of damage. Most are ADC's or auto attack heavy champions. Others its implemented into their kit. Now we have items that counter crit. Every single armour item in the shop reduces the damage crits do. Plus, Randuinns Omen REDUCES crit. So at this point we can argue that Crit isnt unhealthy because there are so many things to counter it and a very small champion base use this.

The point of crit is to have a CHANCE of crit. If you build all crit chance, for 100%, then you are missing out on a lot of damage that you could be dealing. Crits only deal 200% damage. So if you have low damage with high crit, you're doing less damage than high damage, less crit. Your idea makes things TOO predictable. Changing on knowing when to engage, counting attacks, and playing more aggressive or passive in game. Rather than getting into a heated battle and living off of a 1% crit chance rune that saved your life. Yeah it can be a hassle, but that 1% can make a difference. Its only RNG early game. Once you get about 50%, its less likely to get a crit than to crit, which actually can screw up the champion with crit. Youre right, you never know when you will crit (unless 100% crit chance). You're putting the items on that chance for when you do crit, you will deal more damage as appose to not. This idea you have makes champions that could potentially win trades due to putting the money into that stat, having to add this ON TOP OF knowing when to engage. Its a must to have to play league. But if you cant proc the "Adpet Strike" in the first place, how can that be a fair trade? Look at Tryndamere. If you had this on him, he wouldnt be able to spin in attack and leave (which is his kit). He would have to spin in and have a long continuous trade in order to get that little bit of extra damage off in a time that could have been done so much quicker. Same as Yasuo and Master Yi. Plus, ADC's would have a much harder time dealing damage in a team fight because they can only do so much damage or attack for so long. You cant decrease the amount of stacks due to the ideas of basically very quick stacking. So this idea cant really help champions when it comes to team fights. This only benefits Mid laners and Top laners/junglers. They have less to tank for and shifts the idea of who should get fed first. This will make any crit using champion useless.

Your idea of "Adept Strike" forms a new kind of gameplay. Something more a lot more boring. Trade after the 10th attack, wash, rinse, repeat. There is no edge to it. There is no "taking into consideration". Its either you do or dont. You never know if someone is going to cirt. BUT THATS THE POINT. If you try to trade someone with crit chance, you should well understand the issues that could occur when fighting them. Crit is one of them. You should way your odds and see if its worth fighting. Most of these champions are squishy anyway. You are claiming that crits are unreliable when that is the purpose. You dont know when you will crit next. That is something that you should keep in mind. This also makes the game a HELL of a lot more fun. Playing against crit is interesting, but its not impossible. Your excuses are very minor and seems like you are RELYING on crit. Which is not the case. You get crit so you can have a CHANCE to deal more damage. Youre spending money on this. So why should you be Garen-teed anything? This is supposed to be unpredictable because thats what you are getting. A chance to deal double damage, but lack in actual damage itself. The game can never be perfect. But your system puts a idea where the game can become too predictable.

This is a selfish thing to say. Crit is very healthy due to all of the armour items you are given. If you build crit chance, you lack damage. Your changes do sound interesting, but it does heavily focus on mostly ADC's, trnd and Master Yi (maybe yasuo too?) and will have to change them because you underestimate their strength. Never go into a battle you cant win. As of now, Crits are very healthy because you can build around that. Also a lot of ADC's are not going crit and more damage/ armour penetration with the Ghostblade and Cleaver build. There are always build paths around what you need to play against. Also there are team comps to counter certain champions. Use these to your advantage to win the game. Not take out a mechanic of the game that has become a staple to a good amount of champions. Thats why I said this was a selfish thing to say. Disagree all you want. But when you have a solution for every single champion that uses crits and how to implement your idea into the champions kit, then i will listen to your arguments.

Stephenizgod1 votes

Just for the record i stated several times I was speaking at both those who use crit and those playing against crit. So I am not speaking only from one side, I was taking into account how crit negatively impacts everyone.

I understand where you are coming from, but Riot already stated they do not like early game RNG. 1% Crit Chance is really unhealthy for the game and they are looking for ways to remove this (such as taking out all crit chance runes). Furthermore Crit Chance is just unhealthy for pretty much every aspect of the game. This is a competitive game, just because it is funny to win one fight thanks to crit and lose another because you didn't crit doesn't make it healthy or good for the game.

Tryndamere is a problem champion BECAUSE of his crit chance, the ability at level 1 to go in and do 50% of someones HP is not fair, on the flip side if he wasn't capable of doing it he would be garbage. This is also something Riot wants to remove from the game.

The main thing about this game is its Clarity, you want to know what is happening and act accordingly. Crit Chance removes a lot of Clarity, you don't know when someone will Crit and it makes playing with and against feel sort of out of your control. You don't want to win one game because you got super lucky and crit every shot early game, and lose another because someone else did the same thing to you. It should be based on your SKILL not your LUCK. Luck should and always will be part of every game in existence, but it should never be encouraged over skill, you should be encouraged not to rely on luck at all. It is the same thing with Jungle Plants, they add too much RNG to the game because it is not necessarily fair for everyone nor is it knowledge known to everyone. I am not saying they are a bad idea yet, i have yet to play around with them, but just from an initial standpoint that is my opinion.

Armor does not counter Crit, Armor protects you from Attack Damage in general. They have a neutral influence on each other, the Crit still does more damage than a normal auto attack, but the armor just reduces all AD damage. Randuins is the only item that counters Crits and like i said, there is nothing wrong with Critical Strikes, my issue is with Critical Chance. We should remove the chance and add in some clarity.

Every stacking mechanic in the game informs you when someone can go in, but it doesn't mean they will go in. My Adept Strike mechanic is no different, just because they can shoot you one more time doesn't mean they will. My mechanic is not perfect, but i don't see your argument to be one of its weak points. That is just my opinion on the matter though.

I do have a solution for every champion that requires Crit. The ones that require Crit will get the guaranteed Crit mechanic similar to Cait's passive or when Shaco attacks someones back. Everyone else will build Adept Strike, it will in fact make their reliance on Crits not so Feast or Famine. You have misunderstood my post, i don't want to remove Crits, i want to remove Crit Chance. Crit Chance has no real effect on any of those champions except maybe Tryndamere, they do not play around the chance of hitting a crit they just hope the crit will amplify their play.

InfernoFøx1 votes

Youre thinking of this way too bronze like. Yes, in low MMRs they can be a hell. Because you cant stop a train. 1% isnt bad RNG because early on you dont even have enough damage for it to count a whole lot for one attack. Now many attacks can chunk you. Tryndamere thrives off of attacking people for a short while. Its not about crit. Its about knowing when to engage and when to back off. YOU NEED TO KNOW THE CONSEQUENCES OF FIGHTING SOMEONE WITH CRIT. Their chances are the same for you, you can get lucky or unlucky. This isnt unhealthy because you shouldnt be able to control EVERY SINGLE ASPECT OF THE GAME. Crit is something you shouldnt control, only give you more of a chance to get it. But the more crit chance you have, the less raw damage you get.

Make sense?

Guaranteed crit for so many champions can be so predictable though. That isnt fun to play against. That makes things boring and take the gamble out of it. Either making champions way too weak, to WAY TOO STRONG. There is no middle ground with your idea

Stephenizgod1 votes

There is no bronze like or whatever, i don't even know what that means. You are unfortunately mistaken, because Riot happens to agree with me on one point at least and that is 1% crit chance early game is not healthy gameplay. It costs you nothing, but if it happens to go off then you gain a huge advantage in lane. You say early game it is not a lot of damage? Well 70 AD x 2 (200% damage) is 140 damage, the average player has around 600 hp do that is more than 1/6th of their HP for free no skill required. That is assuming you crit on your first hit, if you Crit on your 3rd hit that is a huge advantage in that trade.

YOU NEED TO KNOW THE CONSEQUENCES OF FIGHTING SOMEONE WITH CRIT

When someone has 1% Crit Chance, how is it fair you need to treat them as if they could suddenly take out 1/6th of your HP for free? It is not HEALTHY GAMEPLAY. Just because you enjoy it, does not make it good for the game. 1% on either person doesn't make it fair, one person gets 10 crits and the other gets 2, well guess what the person who got 10 crits is going to win those trades. They didn't play better, they didn't out skill their opponent, they just got lucky. This kind of RNG is not healthy in League of Legends.

Crit Chance is not fun to play against and predictability is what this game thrives on. You need to PREDICT your opponents moves so you can outplay them, that is how you outplay. Yes raw mechanical skill and reflex is important, but for the most part you need to be predicting your opponents moves. Crit Chance can not be predicted until late game when someone is guaranteed to be critting more than not critting.

There is a middle ground, Guaranteed situational crits are already implemented into the game. There are numerous instances of it and it is not considered OP or random or weak. The reason being because it is significant power that has both strength and weakness. The enemy and the player both know how it works and when it will work. You call this boring, I call this strategy. Cait almost about to Crit? Force her to blow it on a minion or suffer the penalties of not backing off. Cait almost about to Crit? Engage on the enemies or force them to back off and zone them from minion wave. See? how is that boring, that is an everyday situation in bot lane and often creates a lot of tension between the 4 players. That is because whoever makes the correct decision based on the information available, will gain advantage.

My friend, I don't like to bring up Ranks, and i even asked no one bring up irrelevant arguments. Rank is an irrelevant argument, i want the opinion and views of people from all ranks. However I wouldn't hate on Bronze so much because Silver 5 is not far off of Bronze.

WoonStruck1 votes

If Crit remains, I believe it should be a risk/reward stat like intended.

It should, under no circumstances, go above 35% if it remains. Crit is not supposed to be a reliable stat. Look at any other MOBA that has properly balanced carries. And its mostly the actual character carrying, not the items.

If crit is supposed to be reliable, like Riot prefers, it needs to be removed as a stat, with the users balanced accordingly.

Stephenizgod1 votes

If I had my way I would remove Crit entirely and just add in a new stat to fill its place that accomplishes the same thing in a more balanced way.

The issue with only 35% Crit Chance is if you Crit 8 out of 10 shots, you got super lucky. There isn't much skill in those 8 crits and you didn't really pay with anything because its not hard to get 35% Crit. Above 50% Crit however does require a bit of investment, which comes at the cost of damage, sustain, or tank. Not to mention if you crit 8 out of 10 times with 50% crit that is not so bad, still lucky but not incredibly over the top. I don't mind Critical Strikes so much, but the RNG of Critical Chance needs to go in my opinion. It is too much RNG and has the potential to skew the balance of a game.

So you don't like my solution because it is too reliable? I can understand that.

Erockandroll1 votes

{quoted}

If I had my way I would remove Crit entirely and just add in a new stat to fill its place that accomplishes the same thing in a more balanced way.

The issue with only 35% Crit Chance is if you Crit 8 out of 10 shots, you got super lucky. There isn't much skill in those 8 crits and you didn't really pay with anything because its not hard to get 35% Crit. Above 50% Crit however does require a bit of investment, which comes at the cost of damage, sustain, or tank. Not to mention if you crit 8 out of 10 times with 50% crit that is not so bad, still lucky but not incredibly over the top. I don't mind Critical Strikes so much, but the RNG of Critical Chance needs to go in my opinion. It is too much RNG and has the potential to skew the balance of a game.

So you don't like my solution because it is too reliable? I can understand that.

the whole 1% early game does sound like a problem, but I wouldn't consider Crit as a whole a problem. Personally I simply see 30% crit as (approximately, over the long run) a 30% increase in DPS, and that should be fine, when you consider the long run. But the people complain about the short run Burst that is achieved by simply scoring a crit. Or put is simply, the Crit damage is too much. I recall a time when Hypercarries were meta, it was a time where IE was a rush item. (not as rushed, but still fairly important early) but if we adjusted crit damage (like we have with the many specific champions) we could greatly reduce the up and down nature of critting.

That said, I wouldn't get rid of it entirely, partially because their is some merit into the RNG, but also that we have an increased amount of utility scaling with crit chance. It really started with the Ashe rework, where they gave a damage amp based on crit chance, in lieu of actually critting. (which in respect could have replaced the crit of any champ, with a similar mechanic) But instead of leaving it as is, they kept the damage amp in lieu of crit damage, but allowed her to crit with an enhanced slow. Similar utilities that have been added to crit include Jhin's speedboost that he gets after scoring a crit, as well as the crit scaling on ER.

Summery: Burst from crit damage is a problem, but the RNG isn't a big issue as long as it serves as a long run damage amp. And their is a large possibility space if you redefine what it means to crit.

Stephenizgod1 votes

I don't have a problem so much with the damage that Crits give, I just feel like it needs to be more clear on when a champion is going to be powerful and when they are not going to be powerful. If you make all the right plays but it ends up going south because 30% Crit ADC got lucky with a few Crits, it doesn't feel too good. You know you played it better and 9 out of 10 times you would have succeeded but this one time the enemy got lucky. To me that doesn't seem fair for either player, because those other 9 times where you didn't crit feels bad since you invested in some Crit Chance but was too unlucky for it to proc.

Good luck and RNG is the Elemental Dragons, you get lucky if there are say 3 Inferno Drakes instead of 3 Cloud Drakes. There is nothing wrong with this kind of RNG because both teams have the exact same information, the team that makes the correct decisions based on that information will reap the rewards. Each team has an equal chance at taking control of the Dragons, and the team that plays better will succeed. Crit Chance does not work this way until you have over 50% Crit Chance, because your fate in the game is largely dictated by luck.

I like the Crit mechanics on Champions like Jhin, Ashe, Cait, Shaco, etc. because it is more clear where their windows of power are. Both teams know (assuming they understand how the champions work) what happens when they are nearing or in those windows of power and can act accordingly. Champions like Tryndamere however are not the same, he is still RNG based and his ability to either run in and half health his opponent early on or he runs in and doesn't crit and takes half his health instead. This isn't great gameplay balance because it removes a lot of skill, you don't know if Tryndamere will crit. You can say "risk and reward" but that is not how that works, that is "lucky or not lucky" and it shouldn't be such a big part of a competitive game like League.

It appears we have opposite opinions on this matter though haha you don't mind the RNG but dislike the boosted damage whereas I don't mind the boosted damage but hate the RNG lol. Funny how that works.

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