Why are modern DPS picks so bursty?

Moody P··55 votes·14,301 views

I was playing Kayle on the PBE today and I couldn't help but notice the damage coming off of her ultimate. And it made me think "Wow, this burst is really nutty. Does she need this?"

And now that I think about it the more I realize that almost every modernized DPS champion these days has quite frankly a lot of potential to do very heavy damage in the first few seconds; with the only exception being Kalista, who has backloaded burst (but she's still bullshit).

Azir, Ezreal, Xayah, Kayle, Kai'sa, Corki and probably a few others that I'm not thinking of right now are really good at hitting you with a giant brick wall of damage at some time in the fight. What I find especially annoying about it is when they also function as executes. A couple of these champions are very good at hitting you with a fat kill button and denying you the opportunity to come back from their damage.

A lot of these champs are pretty consistent headaches when they're strong and I think this could be a contributing factor. When their job is to be consistent DPS threats does it really make sense for them to be pushing out huge nuke combos or executing people with large swathes of missing HP damage? Shouldn't their kits be more about enabling that DPS with steroids or utility than piling on a brick of damage on top of it?

46 Comments

AirKingNeo18 votes

I'm a Kayle main and I agree. Why is her ult AP ratio 0.8? Old Kayle's ult had the weakness of being CC'd, but if you try to CC someone targetted by new Kayle ult, you'll get hit by the burst.

Anu3isII7 votes

Because you can't auto with her during that time. Now CC doesn't counter her as hard while she isn't as deadly as she used to be when not CC'ed. Granted you can CC her after her Ult, she loses her DPS because of it and unless you go full AP-Burst, her Ult will definitely deal less Damage than her AAs during its cast time.

Snowbrand1 votes

{quoted}

I'm a Kayle main and I agree. Why is her ult AP ratio 0.8? Old Kayle's ult had the weakness of being CC'd, but if you try to CC someone targetted by new Kayle ult, you'll get hit by the burst.

Well, if your cc is ranged you can just peel her off. Nothing different from a jumping rengar or whatever

AirKingNeo1 votes

except no CC is a larger range than kayle's ult...

Snowbrand1 votes

{quoted}

except no CC is a larger range than kayle's ult...

Really? Ornn can peel her of from half the map away. A lot of cc outrange her ult aoe. Tbh, the frontline can just cc and peel her of fro the backline if they know what they are doing, since the frontline won't care too much about her dmg

Tomoe Gozen2 votes

Now, don't do that. Old Kayle had absolutely zero counter except CC on her ult as she would almost permaslow you with your Q so that you can't even escape the situation or respond with a Flash in any direction (if she has hers too), while casting R and playing whack -a-mole with your corpse. That wasn't fun for either party involved.

Kayle, right now on PBE, also lost her true damage on her AAs on level 16, which is a good way of curbing the true damage that can't be itemized against. All Kayle had to do is race to 5.0 AS as fast as possible, provided the game lasts that long and she auto wins, given her crazy strength. But her early was utterly dogshit as she couldn't even do anything but farm and hope she doesn't feed that much. She's like Yasuo of AS.

The reason why Kayle now ha an AP ration on her ult is because it disables her AAs while its being cast. Riot didn't want to leave her invulnerability and AAs in conjunction with one another, given this was her issue before. If you force Kayle to ult now, you know she can't do anything while you can attempt to fuck away. Kayle Ring herself isn't an auto-win anymore and her weakness still is CC. Now more than ever, because her threat comes from her R AoE, not her AAs.

AirKingNeo1 votes

Like I said, Kayle's ult no longer has the weakness of being CCed though.

Tomoe Gozen1 votes

Kyle is not CC immune when she ults. Before nor now. How does she circumvent CC with this new ult?

If Kayle ults just for the damage, do you not actually think you can rip her apart before she even gets to Exalted status? She essentially CC's herself until the ult ends so you can eat up the "burst" and just CC her after its over, to prolong her CC status. So it's 2-3 seconds of Disarm from her ult Rank + 1-2+ seconds from your CC. That's a total of 3-5 seconds of time you can do whatever you want to Kayle, provided you can take her "burst" ult damage.

As i've said, before her PBE changes that give her a bit of AP scaling back into her abilities (but reduced her passive AS), she was entirely AS and on-hit reliant, which meant she didn't even have enough power to start bursting anyone due to low AP and lower ratios. Not to mention that she also had to ramp up her AS through Guinsoo's, which she can't do if she's CC'd for 3-5 seconds.

If Kayle uses her ult for the damage in a 1v1 scenario against a champion who can actually kill her (supposed top laner, as meele champions are likely "abused" by her in this case), she's losing a lot of DPS for essentially a quarter of the damage she can actually really deal with her AAs alone. Her ult damage is likely higher on level 6 than what she can do with her AAs alone but that falls off as we go into the late game, where her AA DPS is much higher than her burst damage on her ult.

Anatera12 votes

Because the modern Riot balance team thinks more burst = more excitement, even though it isn't. They also think excitement sells and while that's technically true for the first few times it happens, it isn't true in the long term.

figold66611 votes

Rip A Sol. Turning him into a Burst Mage

I PT I3 votes

{quoted}

Rip A Sol. Turning him into a Burst Mage

Taliyah : "Welcome to the club!"

AirKingNeo1 votes

she was always a burst mage

Hauling Ashe9 votes

Doesn't even feel like I can compete playing Ashe anymore. Sustaining a stream of damage is unreasonable against champions that burst you before you can even make 3 attack moves. Kiting is a thing of the past. Just stand there and take it and hope your stat checking pans out. Unless you get fed early, she feels more like a support champion.

GigglesO6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hauling Ashe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yGmrzEOF,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2019-08-03T04:31:34.727+0000)

Just stand there and take it and hope your stat checking pans out.

Ahhh the true nature of burst champs, and the reason why riot doesn't allow defense items.

LTK KoRo1 votes

because ashe is on a supportive side of adcs, i don't think there's any reason why she should be able to duel anyone with amount of her utility

I Spread Cancer1 votes

She's a strong pick in the right comp / counterpick, definitively not a good champ to main.

Tomoe Gozen2 votes

Ashe has always had this problem. She needs her Q stacked before a fight and the very nature of her slow ult (and no mobility), makes her an absolute squishy carry. You never want to even find yourself in the range of your opponent unless you've clearly got an advantage. Otherwise, you don't have access to your DPS (Q) and R-ing frantically has a failure rate of about 90%. Even in the 10% you actually hit it, you still can't escape the death zone of a champion that's already gotten that close to her.

Ashe is actually a support carry. Her kit has two of such abilities (E and R). Scouting ahead and being pinpoint with your R are skills Ashe players need to learn to play around with. And her Q downtime, which is her main DPS skill. Many times i've played Ashe before, i've had 3-5x more Assists than i do Kills. But that can actually be me being really uncomfortable with not having access to my Q when i want it because it needs to be prepped before a fight first. And in a world where anything that touches you has the potential to instakill you, Ashe is quite a juicy target to pop before she can even start a proper fight. So she's essentially reduced to an R and W bot most of the times.

Hauling Ashe1 votes

That is indeed true. My assists can be in the 20s but I'll have barely more kills than deaths in most games. Problem is in lower ranks you get blamed for your "bad KDA" and players will bitch that you die too often or "you do no damage." It gets tilting at times and I have to aggressively mute in those situations. Never mind that finding a team that actually peels for you is like a needle in a haystack.

"Why aren't you with team?"

Gee, I only play the second slowest character in the game.

Tomoe Gozen1 votes

Exactly. If people don't know how to peel or at least attempt to divert attention to themselves in order to cover for you, what's exactly the expectation there? "Hey, you're feeding again." "They have a Zed, what exactly do you want me to do about that on my own?"

Sometimes i even try to change my builds so that it incorporates a bit of "survivability" but even that has its limits as it's mostly related to Lifesteal. As a Marksman, you don't really have a lot of leeway with items as most want a straight crit/AS DPS path. Some champs are so safe that they can go with the glass cannon build and still work fine given their relative safety (hello Trist...again) and Ezreal. Even Corki does fine. Jhin is also a problem.

As much as i love Ashe's absolute balance and consistency, she really feels weak when aggressive champions come out to play. Because you just know you're going to be the prime target, there's absolutely nothing for you to do unless you want to stay clear of any fighting and just R people. If you fall behind even in the early game in an aggressive lane, you're going to be stuck playing catch up the whole game as anyone who can access the back line can just gun straight at you, where your kit cannot save you.

hoganftw8 votes

Every champion is basically release Xin levels of busted.

Tobykachu8 votes

This is a worrying trend I've been noticing as well. As a support main Sivir and Xayah have been kind of problematic for me in the bot lane. Xayah absolutely chunks you if she pulls in a good number of feathers and Sivir hitting both procs of her Q is an absolute nuke. What's the point of Lucian, Miss Fortune etc. if these supposedly late game, scaling carries are also doing their jobs of high early game damage champions.

5050BS6 votes

Because after S5 the design Lead changed and the new one like "I KILL YOU IN .01s HAHAHA NOOOB!"

Akali is SO HOT5 votes

Corki Magic damage critical strikes

voidscaler5 votes

Riot in the past was never able to balance "dps" characters, this is why characters like swain and aatrox were reworked away from what they were because riot hated the idea of characters being able to output constant damage (this is also why does mages like Casio, aurelion and azir, are either literally useless or op as fuck patch to patch) so rather then try make DPS characters balanced this season they decided to just make every character a burst character Fighters like riven who have 0 cooldown in their abilities can still kill you in one rotation, vayne can tumble auto auto and kill you, ez can land one w-q and do 80% of your health Burst has become the thing this season, the only thing There are no tanks, fighters, bruisers etc etc etc any ore, there is only varying shades of burst

ModAcademy Kayn5 votes

I was playing Kayle on the PBE today and I couldn't help but notice the damage coming off of her ultimate. And it made me think "Wow, this burst is really nutty. Does she need this?"

Uh, yea. She does. The change was made purely to be able to give some counterplay for cases in lane or 1v1s where Kayle would ult herself for a free 2-3 something seconds of invulnerability and time to melt you down with her autos. In exchange for not being able to auto during her own invuln, she's given a chunk of damage to compensate for that down-time in DPS, but also giving opponents a way to avoid the damage from her ult. When she uses it on an ally, she's sacrificing her own survivability to help them survive, or utilize it in an offensive capability as more than just a panic ult.

By adding in the burst at the end, she's given counterplay to her invulnerability in 1v1s, and given new tools in how to successfully help a teamfight in more ways than just "I make them not die", at the exchange of using on of her main defense tools offensively, leaving herself vulnerable.

But addressing your post as a whole, as in your message you're trying to get across. We have very few true DPS champions, whose contribution is literally only DPS. Some of them, like Kallista and Xayah, are held behind some sort of gate/counterplay, Kallista needing 40 spears in you, Xayah needing her feathers. They present a challenge you need to circumvent, and reward you with achieving it, providing a high moment for the player who accomplishes it. The counterplay behind these moments is the real important thing, because let me explain your last point in practice.

If you're a DPS, and we remove these high moment type bursts, then at what point does simple steroids that enable DPS (AS or AD) result in the very same problem you're trying to avoid. Pump too much power into their steroids, and at what point does that DPS become burst regardless? Too strong an AD steroid, you're now doing burst per auto (Hello Draven). Too much AS, you're now plowing ahead with On-hits or insane other combinations where you're attacking fast enough for it to be burst (Hello Pre-reverted rework Kog'maw).

Honestly, we do need those burst, high moments for DPS champions. If you focus people too narrowly into DPS, issues arrive elsewhere, so having these rewardable tests in champions kits no only add in skill floors and ceilings to DPS auto champions is for the most part healthier because of the counterplay involved. As a concept, it is perfectly fine for this to be a thing. The only real issue is the same issue people keep complaining about on the boards in general: Too much damage in general.

Last two things I wanna throw in at the end: We've always had very few pure DPS champions in the game, they've always had chunks of damage in their kits. Even our most acclaimed DPS champions like Ashe or Twitch, have strong points of burst in their kit, be it her 5 stacked Volley, or Twitch's expunge or ult. Secondly, if you want to be a DPS, you need to kill tanks. If you need to kill tanks, you need the damage to do so, and the AS to do so. At somepoint, this overlaps with killing squishy champs too fast, because the damage needed to kill tanks is hitting squishies who don't have that mitigation.

If you focus too much solely on DPS, then you create more of those situations, because if they're fully designed with their power budget packed into DPS, they will bleed on over into being bursty against squishies and not tanks. By moving that power into more counterable moments of higher power, that can be dodged/counterplayed, then you don't have the DPS with autos alone to kill squishies fast, but successfully playing your champion will allow you to kill anyone faster and first.

Saevum4 votes

The Azir example is on point. He doesn't even run out of mana, and everything gives him CDR to spam his soldiers and his dashes.

TekkenPlayer4 votes

more like they need to burst in order to not die in seconds

GigglesO9 votes

we need defense back in the game.

Jerry SeinfeId4 votes

what's the point of having dps if you die in half a second?

KingSam152 votes

I agree. Having so many champs with 2 second combos that deplete your hp entirely is bad for the game. While it does help make vision important (if you see them, you might at least be able to escape), I'm generally against champs having one-dimensional combos that lack the opportunity for counterplay. It causes players to simply memorize the order of keys instead of improvising in different situations. -Your neighborhood Shen main...who can't ult faster than the 1.5 seconds it took Ez to burst down my Kai'sa when she slightly overextended on the other side of the map.

Reaversal1 votes

[deleted]

Moody P14 votes

Old R had more counterplay. Yeah, she can't auto, but prior to this version you could massively mitigate the immune persons impact with CC and attack speed slows to reduce DPS.

Now the counterplay is to A) not be a melee champion and B) hope Kayle has no teammates who can reliably gapclose or stick to you. Failing either of these means you just get bombed for some 8-900 damage late game (before resists).

I would much rather deal with the former situation because even if I have no hard CC I can still mitigate its impact a lot more through items than I can the new ult.

KAYLE TURBO INT1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yGmrzEOF,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-08-02T23:54:16.901+0000)

Old R had more counterplay. Yeah, she can't auto, but prior to this version you could massively mitigate the immune persons impact with CC and attack speed slows to reduce DPS.

Now the counterplay is to A) not be a melee champion and B) hope Kayle has no teammates who can reliably gapclose or stick to you. Failing either of these means you just get bombed for some 8-900 damage late game (before resists).

I would much rather deal with the former situation because even if I have no hard CC I can still mitigate its impact a lot more through items than I can the new ult.

well they kinda need burst in DPS in todays meta because everything other class also has a lot of damage but ADC overall have much less burst than when they had 250% IE / 40% ArP last whisper you could actually 1 shot people on corki, jhin, draven back then.

Fire Blaustoise1 votes

Azir, Ezreal, Xayah, Kayle, Kai'sa, Corki and probably a few others that I'm not thinking of right now are really good at hitting you with a giant brick wall of damage at some time in the fight. What I find especially annoying about it is when they also function as executes. A couple of these champions are very good at hitting you with a fat kill button and denying you the opportunity to come back from their damage.

At this point its Burst By Seconde (minus Kai'sa).

Sucction5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fire Blaustoise,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yGmrzEOF,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-08-03T00:06:34.517+0000)

At this point its Burst By Seconde (minus Kai'sa).

Nope, Kai'Sa has even more burst than most. Getting hit by a WQ Passive from her is instant death, and it can happen in under a second.

BLIGHTBRINGER1 votes

Since you mentioned how you felt about Kalista in comparison, I must ask, how do you feel about someone like Varus as a DPS Champion?

Moody P2 votes

i prefer his artillery playstyle to his right-click one and I don't much care for his high DPS being complimented by the new execute

but he's unplayable in soloQ so I don't see him enough to care

Linna Excel1 votes

It's because riot cares more about flashy lcs plays than proper balance. You can have champs with both but you have to cap both the dps and the burst. Take ahri, she's not really as dps champ or an assassin but is something between the two. She can't out dps a dps champ and an assassin will win burst fights.

LilBadWitch1 votes

item 3057 this item and it's build items are too burst-y to start with. item 3025 item 3078 Irelia Ezreal Corki

GigglesO4 votes

Weren’t issues when defense existed.

GigglesO1 votes

Gonna hijack this thread.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Sire Hippington1 votes

Well, one could also ask why modern burst picks have so much dps, the line between is quite blurry these days...

Take Zoe vs Lux for example, Lux has 9sec base CD on a 490+1.3AP combo without ult, Zoe does up to 525+1.5 AP with just her Q on 6.5 sec base and thx to her ult it's easy to get atleast 1 passive empowered AA in aswell.

Or take a look at neeko, 480+0.9ap on 7sec CD and 130+0.6ap every 3 AAs

Most new 'burst' designs have some dps tools aswell and rather low CDs. Like Qiyana, extra AA dps from W and 7sec base CD on Q+W, 8 on E... Throw in the colateral 40%cdr and it's 3,6sec downtime, no wonder soaking a combo feels rather pointless as a tank...

It's just all Syptoms of the power and especially damage creep that we have in league. The 'burst per second' meme exists for a reason...

Darkstar Annie1 votes

Have you seen Neeko? Puts Annie's whole kit to absolute shame.

Spacesuit Spiff1 votes

If you calculate DPS based on how long fights last, burst is the only viable DPS...

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