Hey, for the 1,626th time: Flat Armor Pen is not good vs Tanks

HateDaddy·Aug 18, 2016·85 votes·7,433 views

There's literally no discussion or debate here. It's simply not good, the armor pen values don't stack up nearly as quickly as a tank can stack up armor values.

185 Comments

HateDaddyAug 18, 201647 votes

I'm so tired of this damn tank circle jerk. Tanks aren't bad, tanks aren't melting any faster than they've normally melted. Every tank is maintaining a 50%+ winrate right now and tanks still get picked frequently in bot, jungle and top in competitive. And to top it off, this absolutely awful circle jerk is spreading this ridiculous notion that flat armor pen is the reason tanks are weak when everyone fucking knows flat pen is bad against tanks.

It needs to stop and it needs to stop now.

LankPantsAug 18, 20165 votes

Every tank is maintaining a 50%+ winrate right now and tanks still get picked frequently in bot, jungle and top in competitive.

Riot's explained this in podcasts before. It's kind of expected that tanks would rest at a winrate greater than 50% because playing a tank almost always improves a team comp. Even when tanks aren't the best it's still generally better to have a tank. Having a tank inherently means that your team has some ability to teamfight, which tends to be important in solo que.

Also most tanks don't maintain a 50% winrate competitively, a lot of them have undefined winrates over the last ~5 patches because picking Sej or Amumu is almost always a bad idea competitively.

crippler38Aug 18, 20161 votes

then why is it I have to be the tank on my team 900% of the time in my normals games?

VolcanuzAug 18, 20163 votes

Because people like experimenting and playing out side the box in normal. Like the silly kill lanes which would never work in ranked down bot.

Normal is where people go to relax and not worry too much about winning.

ElikainAug 18, 201616 votes

Actually, flat armor pen is a problem for people to 100 armor, at least. This a nice value where you'd start to take considerably less damage from AD targets and feel like you're getting tankier in the process but earlier flat armor pen in builds pretty much negate a portion of that armor and you feel like you haven't bought much armor at all.

Ever since the Korean builds for certain ADCs took over, the rune pages have changed. Earlier it was all about AS quints + AD marks and now it's AD quints and armor pen marks.

#That's:

Battering Blows = 7% armor pen (Ferocity tree Mastery) Marks 0.91 x 9 = 8.20 flat armor pen Youmuu's = 20 flat armor pen (3200 g) Serrated Dirk = 10 flat armor pen (builds into Maw or Duskblade) (1100g)

#Here's how it works on a 100 armor target (50 base + 50 bonus)

Battering Blows = 96.55 armor (48.83 base + 47.72 bonus)
Total pen = 38.2 flat armor pen (4300g value) Total armor value = 58.35 armor Total loss = - 41.65 armor

#Here's how it works on a 150 armor target (50 base + 100 bonus)

Battering Blows = 144.27 armor (48.83 base + 95.44 bonus)
Total pen = 38.2 flat armor pen (4300g value) Total armor value = 106.7 armor Total loss = - 43.3 armor

#Here's how it works on a 100 armor target (50 base + 50 bonus) #Lord Dominik's equation

Battering Blows = 96.55 armor (48.83 base + 47.72 bonus)
Total pen = 8.20 flat armor pen (9 Marks)
Dominik's = 75.07 armor (48.83 base + 26.25 bonus) (2700g) Total armor value = 66.87 armor Total loss = - 33.12 armor

#Here's how it works on a 150 armor target (50 base + 100 bonus) #Lord Dominik's equation

Battering Blows = 144.27 armor (48.83 base + 95.44 bonus)
Total pen = 8.20 flat armor pen (9 Marks)
Dominik's = 101.32 armor (48.83 base + 52.49 bonus) (2700g) Total armor value = 93.12 armor Total loss = - 56.88 armor

As you can see from these equations, Battering Blows goes through more armor with more armor on hand as it is a percentage based reduction. One thing you can see is that in the first 2 flat armor equations, the armor loss is more or less the same while in the last 2 equations (Lord Dominik ones), the more bonus armor you have, the greater the armor loss it is.

There's also a difference in prices in these "builds": 2700g VS 4300g (1600 gold difference) Does that mean Lord Dominik's route is better? it does not actually. The difference here is that more combat stats and flat armor pen is great for dealing with semi-tanks and squishies alike as opposed to Lord Dominik's tank killing properties and less combat stats. It's all relative now. Targets with close to 100 armor (early tanks) become the squishies with a bit more HP to burn through but not with enough damage to kill you while squishies become even more squishier to you.

Flat armor is great for Mages with a Zhonya's as they fall into close to 100 armor category. They're unlikely to stack any more armor than that. For the time being, you're not making a mistake going with a flat armor build even if it costs you a bit extra gold as it is great at dealing with people early-mid game and you can always purchase a Lord Dominik's or Mortal Reminder if tanks bother you.

i've just taken into account item 3142 and item 3134 . More flat armor from item 3147 and item 3156 is even better as tanks unlikely reach full tank status in the time the ADC with this build starts going nuts on kills.

##Keep in mind that this is mathematical proof that flat armor is not a bad build to go with these days. I'm not making an argument that this build destroys full tanks as it does not. Last Whisper line of items are real tank killing items and flat armor pen can't even compare to a target with close 300 armor god stats. However, this builds makes wannabe tanks' jobs harder if they're constantly getting bullied and killed before they're able to get gold for their items to bully the ADCs.

HateDaddyAug 18, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Actually, flat armor pen is a problem for people to 100 armor, at least. This a nice value where you'd start to take considerably less damage from AD targets and feel like you're getting tankier in the process but earlier flat armor pen in builds pretty much negate a portion of that armor and you feel like you haven't bought much armor at all.

Ever since the Korean builds for certain ADCs took over, the rune pages have changed. Earlier it was all about AS quints + AD marks and now it's AD quints and armor pen marks.

#That's:

Battering Blows = 7% armor pen (Ferocity tree Mastery) Marks 0.91 x 9 = 8.20 flat armor pen Youmuu's = 20 flat armor pen (3200 g) Serrated Dirk = 10 flat armor pen (builds into Maw or Duskblade) (1100g)

#Here's how it works on a 100 armor target (50 base + 50 bonus)

Battering Blows = 96.55 armor (48.83 base + 47.72 bonus)

Total pen = 38.2 flat armor pen (4300g value) Total armor value = 58.35 armor Total loss = - 41.65 armor

#Here's how it works on a 150 armor target (50 base + 100 bonus)

Battering Blows = 144.27 armor (48.83 base + 95.44 bonus)

Total pen = 38.2 flat armor pen (4300g value) Total armor value = 106.7 armor Total loss = - 43.3 armor

#Here's how it works on a 100 armor target (50 base + 50 bonus) #Lord Dominik's equation

Battering Blows = 96.55 armor (48.83 base + 47.72 bonus)

Total pen = 8.20 flat armor pen (9 Marks)

Dominik's = 75.07 armor (48.83 base + 26.25 bonus) (2700g) Total armor value = 66.87 armor Total loss = - 33.12 armor

#Here's how it works on a 150 armor target (50 base + 100 bonus) #Lord Dominik's equation

Battering Blows = 144.27 armor (48.83 base + 95.44 bonus)

Total pen = 8.20 flat armor pen (9 Marks)

Dominik's = 101.32 armor (48.83 base + 52.49 bonus) (2700g) Total armor value = 93.12 armor Total loss = - 56.88 armor

As you can see from these equations, Battering Blows goes through more armor with more armor on hand as it is a percentage based reduction. There's also a difference in prices in these "builds": 2700g VS 4300g (1600 gold difference) Does that mean Lord Dominik's route is better? it does not actually. The difference here is that more combat stats and flat armor pen is great for dealing with semi-tanks and squishies alike as opposed to Lord Dominik's tank killing properties and less combat stats.

Flat armor is great for Mages with a Zhonya's as they fall into close to 100 armor category. They're unlikely to stack any more armor than that. For the time being, you're not making a mistake going with a flat armor build even if it costs you a bit extra gold as it is great at dealing with people early-mid game and you can always purchase a Lord Dominik's or Mortal Reminder if tanks bother you.

i've just taken into account and . More flat armor from and is even better as tanks unlikely reach full tank status in the time the ADC with this build starts going nuts on kills.

##Keep in mind that this is mathematical proof that flat armor is not a bad build to go with these days. I'm not making an argument that this build destroys full tanks as it does not. Last Whisper line of items are real tank killing items and flat armor pen can't even compare to a target with close 300 armor god stats. However, this builds makes wannabe tanks' jobs harder if they're constantly getting bullied and killed before they're able to get gold for their items to bully the ADCs.

I didn't say flat armor pen builds were bad, I said flat armor pen builds are not good for killing tanks. And no, by the time an ADC has completed two flat pen items, a tank will easily have completed two armor items, like randuins and deadmans as an example. And those two armor pen items offer very little DPS, which is why only a few ADCs can build it and typically assassins are better with this build.

In short, in order to deal with tanks, percentage armor pen is required. Period. This means flat pen alone is not going to kill tanks.

LankPantsAug 18, 201612 votes

And no, by the time an ADC has completed two flat pen items, a tank will easily have completed two armor items, like randuins and deadmans as an example.

Most tanks can't rush Rands>Deadmans. They have to build either Cinderhulk to jungle or a specific item to cope in lane, which in some cases is Sunfire (which would be OK in this case) but often isn't. For example Maokai and Singed often rush RoA.

DeathToEcchiAug 18, 20166 votes

You aren't a real tank if you don't have 150 armor by the time adc has 4300 gold worth of items.

Great OzymandiusAug 18, 20162 votes

toplane maoki building roa into sunfire isn't a real tank? And what if the top lane tank is against an ap champ and needs to build a magic-resist item first?

My Waifu VanillaAug 18, 20162 votes

You drop the 1200 on Spectre and go on with your life. You shouldn't need much more than that if there is only 1-2 AP "threats" to deal with, for the early game at least (and even then a BV+Rot will provide more than enough MR come late game).

DeathToEcchiAug 19, 20162 votes

RoA into Sunfire would be an AP bruiser build. So that would be tank building bruiser, while I was mainly referring to the fact people think building a couple defensive items makes them a tank. Lvl 11 Mao with spectres cowl and frozen heart (4300g) has 163 armor plus 20% dmg reduction and the AS slow.

RandorfAug 18, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Actually, flat armor pen is a problem for people to 100 armor, at least. This a nice value where you'd start to take considerably less damage from AD targets and feel like you're getting tankier in the process but earlier flat armor pen in builds pretty much negate a portion of that armor and you feel like you haven't bought much armor at all.

Ever since the Korean builds for certain ADCs took over, the rune pages have changed. Earlier it was all about AS quints + AD marks and now it's AD quints and armor pen marks.

#That's:

Battering Blows = 7% armor pen (Ferocity tree Mastery) Marks 0.91 x 9 = 8.20 flat armor pen Youmuu's = 20 flat armor pen (3200 g) Serrated Dirk = 10 flat armor pen (builds into Maw or Duskblade) (1100g)

#Here's how it works on a 100 armor target (50 base + 50 bonus)

Battering Blows = 96.55 armor (48.83 base + 47.72 bonus)

Total pen = 38.2 flat armor pen (4300g value) Total armor value = 58.35 armor Total loss = - 41.65 armor

#Here's how it works on a 150 armor target (50 base + 100 bonus)

Battering Blows = 144.27 armor (48.83 base + 95.44 bonus)

Total pen = 38.2 flat armor pen (4300g value) Total armor value = 106.7 armor Total loss = - 43.3 armor

#Here's how it works on a 100 armor target (50 base + 50 bonus) #Lord Dominik's equation

Battering Blows = 96.55 armor (48.83 base + 47.72 bonus)

Total pen = 8.20 flat armor pen (9 Marks)

Dominik's = 75.07 armor (48.83 base + 26.25 bonus) (2700g) Total armor value = 66.87 armor Total loss = - 33.12 armor

#Here's how it works on a 150 armor target (50 base + 100 bonus) #Lord Dominik's equation

Battering Blows = 144.27 armor (48.83 base + 95.44 bonus)

Total pen = 8.20 flat armor pen (9 Marks)

Dominik's = 101.32 armor (48.83 base + 52.49 bonus) (2700g) Total armor value = 93.12 armor Total loss = - 56.88 armor

As you can see from these equations, Battering Blows goes through more armor with more armor on hand as it is a percentage based reduction. One thing you can see is that in the first 2 flat armor equations, the armor loss is more or less the same while in the last 2 equations (Lord Dominik ones), the more bonus armor you have, the greater the armor loss it is.

There's also a difference in prices in these "builds": 2700g VS 4300g (1600 gold difference) Does that mean Lord Dominik's route is better? it does not actually. The difference here is that more combat stats and flat armor pen is great for dealing with semi-tanks and squishies alike as opposed to Lord Dominik's tank killing properties and less combat stats. It's all relative now. Targets with close to 100 armor (early tanks) become the squishies with a bit more HP to burn through but not with enough damage to kill you while squishies become even more squishier to you.

Flat armor is great for Mages with a Zhonya's as they fall into close to 100 armor category. They're unlikely to stack any more armor than that. For the time being, you're not making a mistake going with a flat armor build even if it costs you a bit extra gold as it is great at dealing with people early-mid game and you can always purchase a Lord Dominik's or Mortal Reminder if tanks bother you.

i've just taken into account and . More flat armor from and is even better as tanks unlikely reach full tank status in the time the ADC with this build starts going nuts on kills.

##Keep in mind that this is mathematical proof that flat armor is not a bad build to go with these days. I'm not making an argument that this build destroys full tanks as it does not. Last Whisper line of items are real tank killing items and flat armor pen can't even compare to a target with close 300 armor god stats. However, this builds makes wannabe tanks' jobs harder if they're constantly getting bullied and killed before they're able to get gold for their items to bully the ADCs.

Great Post. I see a lot of "tanks" rushing a damage item in top lane these days. Maybe the reason flat armor pen builds are so successful is because the tanks aren't building right for the enemy snowballing AD bruiser/assassin. And maybe the reason so many tanks are rushing damage is because of the need to "carry or lose" (problem?) of ranked play. So in reality, both are building optimally for most situations. But perhaps Flat armor pen rushing is working so well because the "tanks" feel it necessary to carry damage in the early-mid game.

Picanha96Aug 18, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Great Post. I see a lot of "tanks" rushing a damage item in top lane these days. Maybe the reason flat armor pen builds are so successful is because the tanks aren't building right for the enemy snowballing AD bruiser/assassin. And maybe the reason so many tanks are rushing damage is because of the need to "carry or lose" (problem?) of ranked play. So in reality, both are building optimally for most situations. But perhaps Flat armor pen rushing is working so well because the "tanks" feel it necessary to carry damage in the early-mid game.

The reason is homogeneity! It is simple Mathematics

Exponential Damage Reduction with Penetration Being Able to Dig even further below 0 solves the problem!

something like

e^(x/200) For Effective Health and Damage Increase from penetrations!

I Observation; Damage Enduring holds 3/10 of Top Win Rate

II Facts ; a) Effective health in respect to Armour and Magic Resistance has dimishing returns(Homogeneity of Less than grade 1) and Elasticity

b) It costs significantly more time to Double your Health than to Double your Attack Damage ;evidence

We take the First Damage Dealer ie and the first damage endurer ie

Gp has 76 Attack Damage * The BF Sword Gold Efficiency( 32.5 Gold / AD) = 2470 G to Double AD

Shyvana has 1235 Health * The Giants Belt Gold Efficiency ( 2.63157895 Gold / Health) = 3250 Gold to Double Health

We should Skew Even More the Numbers; would we say they have games of differing lenght? Even So GP would finish his faster as Damage Dealing has value early and Damage Enduring "has value " late Damage Dealing holds a great advantage over Damage Enduring that diminishes as the game goes on but never zeroes much less reverses for the scales to be balanced ideally there should be no advantage but statistics could be seen withj leniency there should be no MEAN i.e Arithmetic Advantage... If we have A population with 2 subjects . i.e Early and Late And The first has a value of 1.5 for the arithmetic mean to be 0 it does not suffice for the second to be 0 It must be -1.5

but as I have no statistics I will not use them)

Gankplank Doubles his Attack Damage 14622( we consider Top) (Gold / Game) / 2470 Gold. Almost 6 Times / Game

Shyvana Doubles her Health 13252(She has no Top in gg) Gold / Game / 3250 G. Only 4 Times / Game

Almost 50% faster....

Also Mid Game is at 8-9 lvl?

Shen has 962 Base Health To double Said Health Two Giant's Belts are Needed = 2000 g + Crystalline Bracer(650g) = 2650 Vayne's AD is 65 To double One BF and one Pickaxe are Enough = 2175g

DPS Farms Quicker and has More Kills What Would Mid Game Be 3.5 K Gold? 8-9 lvl?

III Assumption; Tanks are less Importand

{quoted}

What do you think of exponential Damage Reduction on Armour and Magic Resistance? Because for the Homogeneity degree to be 1( i.e constant elasticity) f(a) = 1/a <=> effective health g(x) = a*Health

That would need too much Rebalancing.

0 Armour Means 0 Effective (Physical) Health

Grabing 1 point in Armour Doubles your Effective Health when Thornmail Provides a Hundred of them.

We have a problem which is Tank lack of Importance! Do we agree?

As an Incipient Economist I aim to find the cheapest solution so messing with Health is suboptimal...

Two Alternatives I think of are; I Constant Returns to Scale II Increasing Returns to Scale

Mind you they are not the only ones: you can think of something else.

Now what about the base?

There is no Right Answer;

We could have

e^a for effective health or e^-a for damage reduction

This would make the Elasticity Equilibrated. An Increasing Line Passing from the Start of the Axes with 45°. The Rebalancing would need to go even further beyond the rebalancing needed for constant Return to Scale

We could have

e^(a/100) for the curve to be isoelastic beyond 100 we could play with e^(a/x) much rebalancing

We can keep the single point effectiveness

1.01^a

We can Use the other Persons suggestion

1.01^0.65^x

or We could even downgrade e^(a/200)

Generally we can play with the Elasticity and Give it the slope(aka tangent) i.e Derivative of the Elasticity we want!

The More Armour the recipient has the less effective i.e. Elasticity, each point of Armour and Penetration is!

Mandang0Aug 19, 20161 votes

{quoted}

The reason is homogeneity! It is simple Mathematics

Exponential Damage Reduction with Penetration Being Able to Dig even further below 0 solves the problem!

something like

e^(x/200) For Effective Health and Damage Increase from penetrations!

I Observation; Damage Enduring holds 3/10 of Top Win Rate

II Facts ; a) Effective health in respect to Armour and Magic Resistance has dimishing returns(Homogeneity of Less than grade 1) and Elasticity

b) It costs significantly more time to Double your Health than to Double your Attack Damage ;evidence

The More Armour the recipient has the less effective i.e. Elasticity, each point of Armour and Penetration is!

I don't really understand the context of some of your terms here (exponential formula for ANYTHING in league, also 'elasticity' used in a non-economics sense). So, feel free to correct me if I'm speaking to something else below:

1) Armor and MR don't have diminishing returns. EHP scales linearly with armor, such that each point of armor adds 1% of your HP to your EHP. The first point of armor adds the same amount to your EHP as the 100th point does. The diminishing returns myth comes about because players look at damage reduction, which is the inverse of EHP and therefore doesn't scale linearly with defense (and thank god it doesn't as the difference between 100% damage reduction and 99% is immortality while 10% from 9% is a modest ~1% increase in EHP).

2) This point of yours seems to be taking a good many liberties. When does Shyvana have 1235 health? Level 9? I can look at level 1 instead and show ruby crystal outperforms long sword in percent increase to their respective stats, per gold spent.

Even beyond that, how do you compare different stats' utility/value? Are you creating a metric like EHP*DPS? Do tanks based on disruption benefit from DPS as much as GP does? Same question for carries and EHP relative to those tanks.

3) Lastly, does your treatment have an explanation for those metas where tanks have been dominant? Based on stat costs and considerations of %increase/gold spent, I don't see any room for other context.

PS) You can only take someone to negative armor/MR through amassing enough reduction to do it alone. Penetration will never take someone below zero, nor will reduction on top of penetration. Not sure if you were just using negative values for an extension to allow you to motivate the use of an exponential, but those values are almost never going to happen.

Picanha96Aug 19, 20161 votes

Elasticitty is the Mathematical Sensitivity. Elasticities are on every function not only on strict Demand&Supply!

Even on a linear (straight) demand or supply curve, the elasticity is not constant for the whole curve. The reason for this is that we are measuring the percentage change in both price and quantity. As you move along a linear curve and approach one of the axes, the percentage changes in that axis variable (either price or quantity) get smaller and smaller and the percentage changes of the opposite axis get bigger and bigger.

Look carefully at my choice of words I did not use Diminishing Returns which are About the Second Derivative But Diminishing Returns to Scale which are about the Homogeneity degree.

I play Lol for 5+(1/3) years Damage Enduring NEVER reached even 5/10 Win Percent on Top Win Rates Platinum Up!

Mandang0Aug 19, 20161 votes

Looking at top winrates is a poor way to discern anything about gamewide balance.

Galio consistently has had one of the highest winrates, despite never seeing any play. Heimer too. Surely if these winrates were representative of the game as a whole, everyone would be picking up these extremely successful champs. It's much more informative to look at ban rates and pick rates. And, if you've played for >5 years, then you absolutely have witnessed the tank metas not only in recent times, but also in the S2 metagolem days.

Look, you sound like you know your jargon, but I doubt anyone else here does. Any science/math students would be able to speak to what you're discussing if you dropped the (I'm assuming economics) lingo. It sounds like diminishing returns to scale is at best speaking to the fact that offense scales harder than defense (intended, and again, says nothing about why tank metas have occurred). At worst it seems like it's willfully ignoring the other defensive stats (health becomes more attractive as you purchase more armor), or even worse making an obvious commentary that the first 10 points of armor are a larger percentage increase in your armor than are the 10 that take you from 200 to 210.

And beyond all of that, I still want to know how you compare the utility/value of offense to defense in your post. Are you considering some combined metric of EHP*DPS such that you can argue the faster stat doubling for attack makes it the more attractive stat? Wouldn't this treatment also make crit-scaling look superior to all other scalings? How well does that agree with metas in which we only see 1 ADC per team (and, currently, ADCs that avoid building crit)? Specifically, I think doubling AD isn't what matters, but doubling spell base damage is (which is why penetration builds are all the rage right now).

Picanha96Aug 19, 20161 votes

I prefer the pick rate. As an Incipient Economist I admit that we people are not the Homo Economicus we would like , we are nonetheless rational even if Restrictedly.

Players do not like to be someone less Importand!

Pick Rates are even more dismal with Thresh Holding the First Place and That's that! 1/10. But I have been told by Brian Feenay:

We Riot Use Win Rates and not Pick Rates.

Homogeneity and Elasticity are Basic Real Analysis of Functions

Engineering&Physics,much more so Math students understand me completely.

Sadly Academics even Pre-Graduate students are not interested in

Renting a House and watering the Gardens which are not theirs

Thus spoke a friend of mine an Industrial Engineering Student I have known for more than 8 years

Ofc Critical Strike gets the same treatment albeit with A small boost from IE

(3 / 200) * ((100 + c) / (150c))

Nonetheless hardly 1/5 of the Damage Dealers invest on Critical.

While ALL Damage Endurers Invest HEAVILY on Armour and Magic Resistance.

Critical is Based on luck and there is common sense to disincentive investing on it. Once a Year it is Joyful to Consume 500$ on a casino now as the frequency of visiting the casino increases the Joy should Increase less.

Health becomes more Attractive the More Armour you build

The Same with Attack Speed, Critical Chance or Damage, CDR if we own an Ability that Uses Attack Damage and last but not least Armour Penetration.

They make all make Attack Damage more Attractive.

Take the Effective Damage Output derivative in Respect to Attack Speed.

ED = D * S

ED(s)' = D

Now the rest is easy

S / ED = 1 / D

ED(s)' * ( S / ED) = D / D = 1

Attack Speed in Always Isoelastic

The Homogeneity Degree

ED(s) = D * S ED(ts) = D * t * S ED(ts) = t * ED(s)

My Problem is How it Stacks Why the Hell do we not have Coumpounding Rates and We have A Cap

x + y% + z% =/= x + (y+z)%

Attack Speed Scaling though is a lesser problem than Damage Endurance lack of Importance

CDR Too

I mean make the EffectiveCD = CD / CDR

Basic CDR = 1

And Each Effect will apply

1 + 10% = 1 * 1.1 1 + 10% + 10% = 1 * 1.1 * 1.1

10% + 10% = 21% =/= 20%

1 / ((1.2 ^ 6) * 1.05 * 1.1 * 1.0028 ^ (39) * 1.0009 ^ (189) * 1.002 ^ 9 * 1.0036 ^ 9) = 4.52484044061

This is with 6 Items Offering 20% CDR 5 Ranks of Intelligence 9 Glyphs & 3 Quintessences of Scalling per level CDR 9 Marks & 9 Seals of Flat CDR And last but not Least Blue Buff.

I have played URF and a Champion does not feel himself with 80% CDR but this is Different in URF you start with 80% CDR here it takes A Full Rune Page (Runes are very Importand for the Early game not So Late) Has a HUGE opportunity Cost of forsaking Bond of Stone / Warlord's Blood Lust / Deathfire Touch/ and Dedicating Full your 6 Item Slots for CDR and ALL that for a measly 77.899773193% CDR

Armour penetration is very strong but it is not dependable.

Why the hell Does what the Oponent Build affect my Build input.

Effective Damage is the same multiplicative inverse of Damage Reduction

It "uses" the Same Elasticity as Armour and Magic Resistance do!

The more Armour or Magic Resistance to Penetrate the less the Damage Increases.

And Penetration cannot go Below 0 So Even Against Squishes you won't build Penetration out of Runes because you can't go Below 0 and you won't risk the least inefficiency!

Furthermore Volibear 's Bites is really taunting me!

1 + 1% + 1% + 1% + 1% + 1%.........

=1.01 ^ 100 = 2.70481382942 =/= 2

Last But not Least now I remembered

making an obvious commentary that the first 10 points of armor are a larger percentage increase in your armor than >are the 10 that take you from 200 to 210.

We are talking about effective health not just armour!

And I am comparing DPS to EHP to compare Damage Enduring to Damage Dealing and entreat you that One is more Importand than the Other!

e^(Armour/ 200) Solves my Foremost Worry!

Mandang0Aug 19, 20162 votes

{quoted} Pick Rates are even more dismal with Thresh Holding the First Place and That's that! 1/10. But I have been told by Brian Feenay:

Riot's not nerfing Galio when he has high winrates. Clearly Riot's not just looking at the top 10 winrates and balancing accordingly (thank goodness!).

Tanks aren't popular now, but they have been in the past. That's why I brought this up - your method can't explain the tank metas this game has had, as armor and AD have scaled in roughly the same way forever.

Homogeneity and Elasticity are Basic Real Analysis of Functions

Engineering&Physics,much more so Math students understand me completely.

Well, I have a degree in physics and I had no idea what the economics jargon you're using means. I highly doubt chemistry or biology majors would be more likely to deal with the mathematics of marginal increase, and I suspect most engineers' usage of "elasticity" concerns physical properties of materials. You're stifling discussion by just tossing around jargon rather than explaining the significance of your metric, much less actually labeling your variables or showing any work (how you arrive at an exponential, for example). After all, I don't see anyone else replying to you.

Ofc Critical Strike gets the same treatment albeit with A small boost from IE

(3 / 200) * ((100 + c) / (150c))

Nonetheless hardly 1/5 of the Damage Dealers invest on Critical.

That's my point. If such a treatment of stats' relative value suggests crit wins out (and it will: crit outscales everything), yet players aren't picking crit-users to deal damage, there's obviously something missing from the discussion. Likely it's the fact that autoattack damage isn't what you should be considering for how offense scales, and spell damage scales much more slowly than does attack damage.

Why the hell Does what the Oponent Build affect my Build input.

Effective Damage is the same multiplicative inverse of Damage Reduction

It "uses" the Same Elasticity as Armour and Magic Resistance do!

The more Armour or Magic Resistance to Penetrate the less the Damage Increases.

And Penetration cannot go Below 0 So Even Against Squishes you won't build Penetration out of Runes because you can't go Below 0 and you won't risk the least inefficiency!

Not sure what you're arguing here. I think we're both in agreement that EHP is the relevant defensive stat, and that it's linear in armor such that each point of armor increases EHP by the same amount. I don't really see how we can calculate the value of penetration without considering the opponent's build, and certainly not effective damage.

We are talking about effective health not just armour!

One's linear in the other. The same sentence applies with "effective health" in place of the 2nd "armor".

And I am comparing DPS to EHP to compare Damage Enduring to Damage Dealing and entreat you that One is more Importand than the Other!

e^(Armour/ 200) Solves my Foremost Worry!

I already explained why I suspect one is more important than the other. For more reasons, consider keystones that scale with damage far more slowly than autoattacks do with AD, %HP damage in tank kits, non-scaling damage from sheen/sunfire, etc.

Still have no idea where you pulled an exponential from.

KGDisastaAug 18, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I'm so tired of this damn tank circle jerk. Tanks aren't bad, tanks aren't melting any faster than they've normally melted. Every tank is maintaining a 50%+ winrate right now and tanks still get picked frequently in bot, jungle and top in competitive. And to top it off, this absolutely awful circle jerk is spreading this ridiculous notion that flat armor pen is the reason tanks are weak when everyone fucking knows flat pen is bad against tanks.

It needs to stop and it needs to stop now.

all pen is good against tanks, thats the point of pen is it not? I have played 600arm rammus and still been shredded by like one adc in less than 3s. The major problem is all pen is overpowered, and resist stats are underpowered. anyone who has played league in the last 6yrs knows tanks are only viable for like 2 minutes in the middle of the game.

2nd ChanceAug 18, 201619 votes

Who even needs armor pen when so much true damage is coming into league lately?

edit: Oh right, and HP% damage too

HateDaddyAug 18, 201611 votes

[{quoted}](name=2nd Chance,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yGmEqAs0,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-08-18T01:25:45.675+0000)

Who even needs armor pen when so much true damage is coming into league lately?

We've had one AD champion given true damage recently and that was fiora in her rework. Gangplanks passive is true damage but let's be honest, it's hardly that much.

2nd ChanceAug 18, 20165 votes

{quoted}

We've had one AD champion given true damage recently and that was fiora in her rework. Gangplanks passive is true damage but let's be honest, it's hardly that much.

Elder dragon gives everyone true damage tho'

HateDaddyAug 18, 201611 votes

[{quoted}](name=2nd Chance,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yGmEqAs0,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2016-08-18T01:36:45.933+0000)

Elder dragon gives everyone true damage tho'

Yeah but let's be real, if someone has obtained Elder Dragon, they were probably winning any way and no build on any single champion stops that barring an extreme throw by the elder dragon team

Auz the RipperAug 18, 20162 votes

you'd be surprised how much gangplank's passive actually does, mostly because he can reset it. although it really only gets applied in duels

KaiokoAug 18, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=2nd Chance,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yGmEqAs0,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-08-18T01:25:45.675+0000)

Who even needs armor pen when so much true damage is coming into league lately?

edit: Oh right, and HP% damage too

HP% gets reduced by armor or MR unless it's true HP% like Fiora or Vayne.

SteelMankindAug 18, 20162 votes

%HP damage is counterable by getting resistances. True damage is countered by health. The one you have to watch out for is %HP true damage, which so far only Vayne, Fiora, and Garen have.

But you're right, the champs with true damage get less out of armor pen for the most part.

A Simple DesireAug 18, 201610 votes

Grats you have 40 armor pen. What is that going to do vs the 300+ armor Shen?

jaymc1130Aug 18, 201613 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Simple Desire,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yGmEqAs0,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-08-18T01:26:06.844+0000)

Grats you have 40 armor pen. What is that going to do vs the 300+ armor Shen?

Tickle him.

FEATHER FIGHT!!!!!!!!!

WET NOODLES! GETCHA WET NOODLES HERE! WET NOODLESSSSS!!

Pale PirateAug 18, 20164 votes

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/642/747/e75.jpg

LankPantsAug 18, 201610 votes

Flat armour pen is conditionally good against tanks. It's good against tanks when you also have % armour pen.

If you have 250 armour, 80 of which is base and the enemy champ has a build like item 3142 item 3036 item 3071 then flat pen is effective against you. In this case you'd be reduced to 174 by LDR, 121 by TBC and 101 by Ghostblade meaning the Ghostblade is giving a substantial difference in armour values in this case, equivalent to ~17% armour pen, which considering the other stats this item gives is very high.

That's why flat pen is very efficient on certain ADCs and allows them to take on tanks efficiently. Where an ADC doesn't need crit as in the cases of Lucian or Jhin a build with these 3 items is capible of dealing with tanks.

Even in cases where LDR isn't built these builds are capable of downing tanks, the problem is that they shouldn't be. Building items like item 3142 and item 3147 should trade your ability to deal with tanks for more damage against squishies. The problem is that these items stack too efficiently with item 3071 . Using the 250 armour example from before TBC shreds to 175 then pen reduces to 145. This is enough to deal with a tank, it's not the best but it doesn't have to be because it does other things that other builds can't.

What most people suggest with pen is swapping the order of pen to be like what it was in S2, where flat pen applies before %pen. What this would mean is that your pen would reduce to 220 then TBC would reduce to 154, meaning the build losses some of its effect against tanks in a tradeoff for it's anti carry nature.

HateDaddyAug 18, 20166 votes

Here's the problem with this entire concept

20 flat pen is still 20 flat pen. Yes it synergies with %armor pen but %armor pen is what's making the flat pen even remotely effective in any meaningful way. You could remove the flat pen and wouldn't notice much difference.

The other thing: if you build this as an ADC item 3142 item 3147 item 3071 item 3036 and boots and probably a defensive item, you're not good at killing tanks. You simply dont attack fast enough and your ad is still relatively low compared to a full crit/as build combined with %pen. Only two ADCs have successfully used this build: Lucian and Jhin and its because both function as pseudo casters and can stack BC quickly while their kits give them innately good dps regardless. Most ADCs can not build like this and in Jhins and Lucians case, they can. This isn't even unhealthy because these items don't provide them with stats they wouldn't be otherwise achieving from the standard Ad/As/Crit build.

In short, flat pen isn't doing much. Period. And flat pen builds on ADCs will never give them the ability to kill tanks without percentage pen and most ADCs can't properly utilize the flat pen/percentage pen build.

Also, this change back to the pen formula in season 2 is a terrible idea because league of resistances would return and literally anything could function as a tank. The other element is AD assassins would be absolute garbage with this change, the same way they were in s2.

Nothing is wrong with tanks, nothing is wrong with the armor pen items now.

LankPantsAug 18, 20163 votes

20 flat pen is still 20 flat pen. Yes it synergies with %armor pen but %armor pen is what's making the flat pen even remotely effective in any meaningful way. You could remove the flat pen and wouldn't notice much difference.

In a situation where an enemy has 50 armour 25 flat pen and 50% armour pen are the same thing. You can always equate flat pen to armour pen.

The other thing: if you build this as an ADC and boots and probably a defensive item, you're not good at killing tanks. You simply dont attack fast enough and your ad is still relatively low compared to a full crit/as build combined with %pen.

Most pick 3 of the 4. The build tends to be item 3142 + item 3071 + item 3147 or item 3036 . It's rare to build all 4 together. Typically Lucian would build 3 of those items and item 3046 + item 3031 and ignore defensive items because his kit fills that role for him. Jhin will often go + item 3139 since he typically needs the cleanse and sustain more than Lucian. In any case they don't lack damage when they build this way.

Only two ADCs have successfully used this build: Lucian and Jhin and its because both function as pseudo casters and can stack BC quickly while their kits give them innately good dps regardless.

And you don't see the problem with this? Why should specialist ADCs also excel in generalist traits? Lucian is the most burst centric ADC sans Graves and Jhin has extreme poke. They should have tradeoffs for this power. When you put a tank in front of them they should struggle to break through them because unlike most ADCs that's not where their main strength lies. They currently don't really trade anything for their strengths.

Most ADCs can not build like this and in Jhins and Lucians case, they can. This isn't even unhealthy because these items don't provide them with stats they wouldn't be otherwise achieving from the standard Ad/As/Crit build.

Lucian and Jhin are the worst two but there are certainly others who build this way. Draven, Quinn, MF, Graves and Twitch can all make use of this build or a very similar one.

Also, this change back to the pen formula in season 2 is a terrible idea because league of resistances would return and literally anything could function as a tank.

How? Lastwhisper and its upgrades would still be the exact same. This change would only force ADCs to chose between itemising against tanks or itemising against squishies. They just lose the ability to do both at the same time, which was actually the idea behind the preseason changes to LW if you go back and look into it.

The other element is AD assassins would be absolute garbage with this change, the same way they were in s2.

You haven't thought that one through have you?

When you target a squishy with 75 armour with 30% pen and 30 flat -%first=22.5 -%second=24.5 total difference, 2

This only changes the effect significantly when you're working with high armour values.

HateDaddyAug 18, 20165 votes

{quoted}

In a situation where an enemy has 50 armour 25 flat pen and 50% armour pen are the same thing. You can always equate flat pen to armour pen.

Of course but then in that case, someone having only 50 armor would be a case where that champion isn't a tank and this didn't apply to them.

Most pick 3 of the 4. The build tends to be + + or . It's rare to build all 4 together. Typically Lucian would build 3 of those items and + and ignore defensive items because his kit fills that role for him. Jhin will often go + since he typically needs the cleanse and sustain more than Lucian. In any case they don't lack damage when they build this way.

Only two ADCs have successfully used this build: Lucian and Jhin and its because both function as pseudo casters and can stack BC quickly while their kits give them innately good dps regardless.

And you don't see the problem with this? Why should specialist ADCs also excel in generalist traits? Lucian is the most burst centric ADC sans Graves and Jhin has extreme poke. They should have tradeoffs for this power. When you put a tank in front of them they should struggle to break through them because unlike most ADCs that's not where their main strength lies. They currently don't really trade anything for their strengths.

Most ADCs can not build like this and in Jhins and Lucians case, they can. This isn't even unhealthy because these items don't provide them with stats they wouldn't be otherwise achieving from the standard Ad/As/Crit build.

Lucian and Jhin are the worst two but there are certainly others who build this way. Draven, Quinn, MF, Graves and Twitch can all make use of this build or a very similar one.

In these paragraphs, you explained what makes the flat pen builds strong but again, you are ignoring the fact that you need to have percentage pen to kill tanks, no matter which way you build. You cannot dispute this because there is no argument to be had: flat pen alone is not good against tanks.

And in any case, either way an ADC builds, whether it's As/Crit + %pen, or high ad/flat pen + %pen, they are going to be good at killing tanks because of that %pen. The issue isn't flat pen, it never has been. And by the time an ADC has stacked flat pen items, a tank will easily have stacked enough armor for that to not be a factor.

How? Lastwhisper and its upgrades would still be the exact same. This change would only force ADCs to chose between itemising against tanks or itemising against squishies. They just lose the ability to do both at the same time, which was actually the idea behind the preseason changes to LW if you go back and look into it.

Once again, either way an ADC builds will be good against a low armor target. A low armor target will not survive an ADCs DPS any faster than it would survive the burst of a flat pen pseudo caster ADC like Lucian and Jhin.

In all cases, flat pen isn't a problem so I don't understand how this matters because low armor targets wouldn't survive an alternative and more traditional ADC build either. So either way you slice it, a champion that builds damage hurts if you don't build resists and if you do stack resists, you need %pen to kill them.

That has been my entire point and you continue to ignore that %pen is required to kill tanks and you rationalize this by pointing out that flat armor pen is good vs low armor targets, something I'm not disputing but something that wouldn't qualify as a tank. So please, stick to what my point is and don't try to distract the main point because I'm not saying flat pen is bad, im saying flat pen alone is bad vs tanks.

LankPantsAug 18, 20165 votes

That has been my entire point and you continue to ignore that %pen is required to kill tanks and you rationalize this by pointing out that flat armor pen is good vs low armor targets, something I'm not disputing but something that wouldn't qualify as a tank. So please, stick to what my point is and don't try to distract the main point because I'm not saying flat pen is bad, im saying flat pen alone is bad vs tanks.

You're missing my point that it's the combination of %pen and flat pen that is too strong. I'm not arguing to nerf either individually, although I do feel like Youmuu's is too strong as an item. My suggested change would only effect champs who build both %pen and flat pen.

Of course but then in that case, someone having only 50 armor would be a case where that champion isn't a tank and this didn't apply to them.

This is an example taken to a logical extreme. It's not meant to make sense in the context it's used in, but you already knew that and are just picking at metaphorical straws. My example of Youmuu's having ~17% against a 250 armour target in my other example did however, this argument only exists to support that example.

And in any case, either way an ADC builds, whether it's As/Crit + %pen, or high ad/flat pen + %pen, they are going to be good at killing tanks because of that %pen. The issue isn't flat pen, it never has been. And by the time an ADC has stacked flat pen items, a tank will easily have stacked enough armor for that to not be a factor.

Once again you miss an important point. A target building flat pen is better at killing squishies. They need a tradeoff for this which they currently don't have. Making the pen stack more inefficiently against tanks would be an appropriate tradeoff.

If you go heavily into the burst build you shouldn't get to kill tanks easily, it just makes sense.

HateDaddyAug 18, 20161 votes

{quoted}

You're missing my point that it's the combination of %pen and flat pen that is too strong. I'm not arguing to nerf either individually, although I do feel like Youmuu's is too strong as an item. My suggested change would only effect champs who build both %pen and flat pen.

This is an example taken to a logical extreme. It's not meant to make sense in the context it's used in, but you already knew that and are just picking at metaphorical straws. My example of Youmuu's having ~17% against a 250 armour target in my other example did however, this argument only exists to support that example.

Once again you miss an important point. A target building flat pen is better at killing squishies. They need a tradeoff for this which they currently don't have. Making the pen stack more inefficiently against tanks would be an appropriate tradeoff.

If you go heavily into the burst build you shouldn't get to kill tanks easily, it just makes sense.

Only two champions can itemize this flat pen + %pem build and that's Jhin and Lucian. And their kits give them enough DPS innately to follow through. In a world where a target is squishy, they'd die to a full crit/as/ad build just as fast. Either way, low defense champions die to high damage champs and %pen is required to kill tanks. This isn't bad balance and there isn't an issue because the alternative build would do the same things in both scenarios.

LankPantsAug 18, 20163 votes

In a world where a target is squishy, they'd die to a full crit/as/ad build just as fast.

That's complete BS. Lucian kills squishy targets in a single double tap combo. Other ADCs need 3 AAs at least in a scenario where they crit every single auto attack, your chance of doing this in an independent system (which LoL's crit system isn't) is 16.64%, in LoL's system it's even lower because your chance to crit is adjusted based off of your previous attacks.

In your best case scenario with let's say 1.5 AS that's still 2 seconds of attacking, do you think Lucian takes that long to kill?

In a more realistic scenario you need 4-5 AAs since the most probabilistic scenario for 4 AAs is 2 crits and 2 normals. That's 2-3 seconds to kill, which is actually a significant time.

SintamaAug 18, 20163 votes

item 3036 I just got out of a game. I was poppy. ~4k hp and 517 armor. Both Graves and Vayne could 3-shot me.

HateDaddyAug 18, 201617 votes

literally impossible

Sorry made up bullshit isn't welcome in this thread

RozzetaAug 18, 20169 votes

Your comment is quite ironic.

HateDaddyAug 18, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Your comment is quite ironic.

How so

l Helios lAug 18, 20162 votes

Literally relates to reality while impossible denotes what is not reality

TequilaZombieAug 18, 20163 votes

Literally not impossible. Actually quite plausible. At least for the stats presented.

Look at his match history: item 3068 item 3025 item 3143 item 3742 item 3075

Those amount to a total of 325 bonus armor. Poppy has 88.5 base armor at lv 18. Getting her to 413,5. Her W passive grants her permanent 12% extra armor (based on total armor), making it 463,12. However, if she's under 40% hp, the bonus is doubles to 24% extra armor. This leads to a total of 512,72 without taking in consideration runes and masteries that could possibly lead to a value close to 540 depending on how it's calculated.

For health, with this build and masteries granting bonus health, she could reach 3915 hp. Put an elixir in the mix and she's over 4k hp.

I'm too busy to calculate if she could be literally 3 shot by a Vayne, but seeing how she went for the anti tank build, I could see it working.

HateDaddyAug 18, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Literally not impossible. Actually quite plausible. At least for the stats presented.

Look at his match history:

Those amount to a total of 325 bonus armor. Poppy has 88.5 base armor at lv 18. Getting her to 413,5. Her W passive grants her permanent 12% extra armor (based on total armor), making it 463,12. However, if she's under 40% hp, the bonus is doubles to 24% extra armor. This leads to a total of 512,72 without taking in consideration runes and masteries that could possibly lead to a value close to 540 depending on how it's calculated.

For health, with this build and masteries granting bonus health, she could reach 3915 hp. Put an elixir in the mix and she's over 4k hp.

I'm too busy to calculate if she could be literally 3 shot by a Vayne, but seeing how she went for the anti tank build, I could see it working.

So you're saying it's plausible lol

It's not, he was not 3 shot by vayne. He was not 3 shot by graves.

He probably got caught out and vayne killed him pretty quickly, which is what she does after all. But it was not "3 shot"

TequilaZombieAug 18, 20162 votes

I was saying his stats of 4K hp and 517 armor were plausible. Not saying that it was plausible that he was 3 shoted by Vayne or Graves.

I just did the math. Vayne's damage on an auto, after reduction by armor and (taking into account: Armor penetration, on hit damage from Fervor, Guinsoo (on the double proc), and BotRK, increased damage from item 3036 , runes and masteries focusing on creating the biggest numbers possible, and assuming a critical strike with the IE increment, all that on a tumble), would be doing about 560 damage per auto. It is a lot against a full tank, but not enough to 3 shot.

Assuming the proc of her W this would hit 960 damage, but not even 3 of those in a row would be enough to kill that Poppy.

ProfDrDeathAug 18, 201615 votes

4k HP. 517 Armor, 88.5 of which is base Armor.

LDR reduces that to 324.175, or 324.

Your effective HP against physical damage is 16960.

If you account for Giant Slayer, which basically just divides your EHP by 1.15, it is still 14748.

Unless Graves and Vayne could do 4916 damage to you per shot, they did not 3-shot you. Period.

Auz the RipperAug 18, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Unless Graves could do 4916 damage to you per shot, they did not 3-shot you. Period.

i could see graves doing that

ProfDrDeathAug 18, 20167 votes

Highest possible damage for Graves is 5 IE + 75 AD item: 425 AD + 10 masteries + 51.75 full scaling runes + 40 baron + 30 Elixir + 102 base = 658.75 AD times 1.36 for max Infernals + Elder = 895.9.

160% AD per pellet, 6 pellets total, every pellet after the first reduced to 33%:

1.6 times 8/3 times 895.9 = 3822.5 damage + 112 Fervor of Battle = 3934.5 damage

Multiplied by 8% for Bounty Hunter and DES: 4249.3 damage.

TL;DR: Close, but no cigar.

Golden Tager XAug 18, 20164 votes

{quoted} but no cigar.

I see what you did there.

notice me Sin piAug 18, 20161 votes

i just looked at ur op.gg just to see how do u even build 4k hp and 517 armor. armor from items = 325 armor hp from items = 1.5k health

i suppose 4k hp was possible with some runes and masteries in addition to poppy's base health (2070 hp at lv18), but armor value just doesnt make sense (325 armor + 88.5 armor at lv18 = 413.5 armor). I need an explanation on where the additional 103.5 armor came from.

Even if u can explain where the additional 103.5 armor came from, vayne had item 3124 item 3046 while graves had item 3026 , neither of which do not really boost the damage of each auto attack significantly(you said 3-shot, so if this was true, then i would assume every single item they had must have focused on aa damage rather than aa speed or defense)