Unless the enemy comp has some sort of healing, the grevious wounds from 
is useless. A lot of times I find myself building 
and not completing it just for the mpen.
I feel like should have an alternate completed item it can build into similar to 
can build into 
or 
What do you think?
HP Crookshanks13 votesAgreed. Almost all AP champions keep building the same items over and over. They should have more item choices like their AD counterparts.
GayFluffyUnicorn5 votesAfter AP get finally nerfed to the ground maybe.
Daddy Ants4 votesAfter AP get finally nerfed to the ground maybe.
Mage players think their the bastard child in League and get neglected on a balance level.
Even though they are the strongest class right now by a decent margin.
BrightWîngs2 votesOn hit ADCs built the same thing every game 
into crit
Crit ADCs build the same thing every game 
item and 
bruisers build the same thing 
or 
item 
And tanks just build what ever counters their opponent.
if it works there's no reason to change it. mages dont NEED different items for really anything they normally have something in their kit for most situations ( shields, CC, dashes, ect. ). Its not like does NOTHING when there isn't heavy healing champs on the enemy team its all healing so someones 
life steal, spell vamp, triumph and as far as percent spell pen goes 
I've noticed is WILDLY underrated and its really the only thing you need 40% is more than enough to deal with a tank stacking MR some mages are just bad at killing tanks exp.
since they are more bursty.
but go ahead and down vote me for being reasonable. [slayer-jinx-catface]
Handy Sandy 8 votesit should build into void staff or a new % penetration item. If nobodys building mr you have the option to go for morello, but if they are then you aren't wasting the orb since you could build it into void. I rarely run into this situation though.
Sire Hippington2 votesthing is, ever since S3, getting flat pen on top of a voidstaff isactually very efficient, so why would i want to turn my orb into a voidstaff rather than just picking up a voidstaff on top of it?
Handy Sandy 1 votes[{quoted}](name=Sire Hippington,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yEB4QpV4,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-12-23T00:43:03.399+0000)
thing is, ever since S3, getting flat pen on top of a voidstaff isactually very efficient, so why would i want to turn my orb into a voidstaff rather than just picking up a voidstaff on top of it?
You're getting void staff quicker, and void staff does more damage than orb against someone building a bunch of mr.
It would look like
orb -> Void staff -> orb -> Morello
instead of
orb -> Blasting wand/amp -> Void staff -> morello
Z3Sleeper1 votes??? It's not tho. It's vastly more efficient. Void Staff essentially makes all flat penetration 40% more effective.
100 MR target vs 15 flat pen and 40% pen.
15/100 = 15% resists negated 15/(100 - 40%) = 25% resists negated (by flat pen)
15% -> 25% is a 40% increase in flat penetration's effectiveness here.
Tormentula1 votesit should build into void staff or a new % penetration item. If nobodys building mr you have the option to go for morello, but if they are then you aren't wasting the orb since you could build it into void. I rarely run into this situation though.
My only problem with this is you can't stack + pen ->
You'd have to finish void, then go morello, or finish morello and just sit on the oblivion orb with a useless unique passive until it upgrades into void. Or change morello's unique passive name.
ModCaliCoastReplay1 votesit should build into void staff or a new % penetration item. If nobodys building mr you have the option to go for morello, but if they are then you aren't wasting the orb since you could build it into void. I rarely run into this situation though.
This.
currently builds out of 
which goes from flat AP to a 40% penetration power spike.
out of makes so much more sense.
The health loss on upgrade could be an issue, but not enough of one to outweigh the synergy here.
0 Hogapu2 votesdon't make it build into void staff. Unique passive woulnd't stack and we would lose another MPen item.
Daddy Ants6 votesYet Mages aren't put behind in their core builds for building those items.
Draconian5654 votesYet Mages aren't put behind in their core items for building those items.
Literally just sit on Oblivion Orb until late game because it's that good. This happens 50% of the time because the magic pen is unhealthy when put with Sorc Shoes and Void Staff.
Bears Dont Care3 votesLiterally just sit on Oblivion Orb until late game because it's that good. This happens 50% of the time because the magic pen is unhealthy when put with Sorc Shoes and Void Staff.
Ahahaha sure its unhealthy. That's why it costs 2600 gold to counter the magic resistance from a null magic mantle.
450 vs 2600.
How dare magic users be capable of countering defensive builds? Defense should out scale offense.
Pray tell what would be healthy then? Not having 3 mr penetrating items defeat a single 450 gold mr item?
You guys complain about damage creep all the time but it isn't as severe as everyone thinks. Everyone just builds very offensively now.
Draconian5652 votes[{quoted}](name=Bears Dont Care,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yEB4QpV4,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2018-12-22T23:46:18.111+0000)
Ahahaha sure its unhealthy. That's why it costs 2600 gold to counter the magic resistance from a null magic mantle.
450 vs 2600.
How dare magic users be capable of countering defensive builds? Defense should out scale offense.
Pray tell what would be healthy then? Not having 3 mr penetrating items defeat a single 450 gold mr item?
You guys complain about damage creep all the time but it isn't as severe as everyone thinks. Everyone just builds very offensively now.
Hey genius. Most champions have twice the amount of base Armor as MR (150 to 75). That's why Lethality isn't giga broken. No matter how much Lethality you build, it's rarely going to get you near true damage. Meanwhile, if you have 65 MR or less, you get hit for true damage from mages.
Let's talk about items. Hexdrinker - they're planning to remove the MR off it and it's the only thing you can build into from Null Mantle since they removed MR off of Edge of Night ADCs - they can literally build nothing off it besides QSS, which sacrifices a stupid amount of damage. Tanks - Visage is situational and becomes a statblock if you don't have healing, Adaptive is inefficient against non-DOT and spam champs like Singed and Cass, Abyssal is pointless if you don't have a mage on your team or if you're not AP yourself.
Here's the main difference: It's not about the option to itemize against a class; you have to itemize against mages or they hit you with copious amounts of damage because the game is inherently tipped in their favor.
Defense should outscale offense early on because if offense was more efficient to build, games would be over in a few kills because both players would only build offense and obviously the one with kills with have an advantage.
Bears Dont Care2 votesHey genius. Most champions have twice the amount of base Armor as MR (150 to 75). That's why Lethality isn't giga broken. No matter how much Lethality you build, it's rarely going to get you near true damage. Meanwhile, if you have 65 MR or less, you get hit for true damage from mages.
Hello not so genius.
I dont care about armor, and it was never brought up. So this is a tangent I can ignore.
As for the trifecta of mr penetration. This requires two complete items plus sorc boots. Which is perfectly acceptable by that time of the game since a champ with 65 mr is a squishy.
Let's talk about items. Hexdrinker - they're planning to remove the MR off it and it's the only thing you can build into from Null Mantle since they removed MR off of Edge of Night
That is because he drinker plus the magic based shield rune plus hex drinkers shield made a very difficult issue for mages. You need to rush the trifecta to beat it out which isn't efficient for lanyards mages who desire cdrs and mana. Morellonomic9n, void staff and sorc boots provide none of it. For champions such as Spain, ryzen, and karthus this was too strong.
They needed to spend over 4k to be a 1300 gold item.
ADCs - they can literally build nothing off it besides QSS, which sacrifices a stupid amount of damage.
Well yeah, you shouldn't get damage and defensive stats so early and so powerfully that it took 3 items to counter 1.
Tanks - Visage is situational and becomes a statblock if you don't have healing, Adaptive is inefficient against non-DOT and spam champs like Singed and Cass, Abyssal is pointless if you don't have a mage on your team or if you're not AP yourself.
Visage was used by any tank with self healing which was the majoritt. For those that did not such as sejuani, they had abyssal.
There are an exceptional few which do not fall under these two categories and even if they didn't, abysmal provided much valued mr, cdrs and health.
If you dont have a magic damage based champ in your team then that is a garbage comp and you deserve to lose.
Here's the main difference: It's not about the option to itemize against a class; you have to itemize against mages or they hit you with copious amounts of damage because the game is inherently tipped in their favor.
Not really, champions such as zeds have hexdri Kerry which without the mr is still useful due to how it stacks with the magic based shield from the rune system. On top of this, if you build mantle for 450, the 25 mr alone allows one to count terms sorc boots or oblivion orb. If the mage goes void staff then good, you delayed him from cdr, mana, and other items.
That is the point of counter building. There is a reason there are so many items. You shouldn't be like hanshinshin and demand to be able to build the same optimal path regardless of the opponent you face.
Defense should outscale offense early on
It does.
because if offense was more efficient to build,
It is that's why we are in a damage meta.
games would be over in a few kills because both players would only build offense and obviously the one with kills with have an advantage.
Which is what we have been seeing.
450 gold for 25 mr. Requires oblivion orb and sorc boots to outscale. That is 2600 gold which is significant and allows you to bully the mage early on.
Draconian5651 votesThe fact that it's basically mandatory to buy MR is already a problem. That's why I brought in the Armor example. Regardless if you build it or not, you will never have an instance where you'll be hit with true damage by conventional builds (aka not 6 Duskblades) due to the fact that you have a minimum of 75 Armor at Lv18, even on mages.
This is also a problem because Armor/MR to damage reduced of that type isn't linear. -15 MR from magic pen at 30-40 base MR will increase damage far more than 75 to 57 from a Lethality item (8% more iirc).
Mages are not burdened at all by building defensively. This is evident by Armguard beign able to built into Zhonyas, an item that can basically be built on any mage. Need MR as a mage? It goes into Banshee's, which gives the most amount of flat MR in the game (another form of bias when only mages can itemize MR).
"Well yeah, you shouldn't get damage and defensive stats so early and so powerfully that it took 3 items to counter 1." - Guess Armguard needs to be removed then if Hexdrinker is losing its MR, which is what Riot is planning.
"That is because he drinker plus the magic based shield rune plus hex drinkers shield made a very difficult issue for mages." - Oh, I'm sorry, you're struggling because I built specifically against you? Who would have though.
"If you dont have a magic damage based champ in your team then that is a garbage comp and you deserve to lose." - that's default saying that you must have a mage at all times, which is the exact problem. Anything else can be countered, but not mages. In the past 14 games, it's always been 2 mages mid, a mage support, or a mage top. It could very well be a maokai top pumping out AP damage, but oh wells, you still deserve to lose because you didn't play a specific character.
Call me crazy, but isn't this the exact logic in Ardent Meta? Either you have one or you're instantly at a disadvantage.
"That is the point of counter building. There is a reason there are so many items." - That's why I'm so against more magic pen - There's literally nothing to build. What can you actually build to counteract magic pen beyond just sitting on a null mantle? While mages pump out aoe damage in mid game teamfights, everyone else has to be stuck with building defensively?
I'm not calling for a nerf of AP items like hashinshin, as I despise his notion that everything non-Jax should be nerfed. I want actual MR items that I can build that doesn't involve me just sitting on a null mantle all game because I have nothing to build into. This needs to happen before more magic pen items can actually exist. It's a problem when I have 2 full MR items that cost approximately 6K and I only have 150 MR.
Bears Dont Care1 votesThe fact that it's basically mandatory to buy MR is already a problem.
It isnt.
That's why I brought in the Armor example. Regardless if you build it or not, you will never have an instance where you'll be hit with true damage by conventional builds (aka not 6 Duskblades) due to the fact that you have a minimum of 75 Armor at Lv18, even on mages.
That is because AD enhances both auto attacks and abilities rather than solely abilities as is the case with the majority if mages.
This is also a problem because Armor/MR to damage reduced of that type isn't linear. -15 MR from magic pen at 30-40 base MR will increase damage far more than 75 to 57 from a Lethality item (8% more iirc).
If it decreases linearly you would need to rebalance the game as a whole because tanks would be shredded horrifically.
Mages are not burdened at all by building defensively. This is evident by Armguard beign able to built into Zhonyas, an item that can basically be built on any mage.
This is such a tiresome and poor argument and yet it continues to see mention 5 years later. A seeker rush is not something any mage wants to do period.
Need MR as a mage? It goes into Banshee's, which gives the most amount of flat MR in the game (another form of bias when only mages can itemize MR).
Need mr as an ad assassin? Go maw. Or you can go mercurial scimitar and cleanse any cc on you including knockups.
See? I can name options as well and frame it to sound like a great 1st item rush in all situations!
"Well yeah, you shouldn't get damage and defensive stats so early and so powerfully that it took 3 items to counter 1." - Guess Armguard needs to be removed then if Hexdrinker is losing its MR, which is what Riot is planning.
We already went over this in regards to armor vs mr purposes and why you get more of the former. A single 450 gold item requires a void staff minimum to defeat. No one rushes void staff because cdr, mana, and ap are so much more important after the removal of mana pots.
You can still pick up a 450 gold item to reduce magic damage severely.
"That is because he drinker plus the magic based shield rune plus hex drinkers shield made a very difficult issue for mages." - Oh, I'm sorry, you're struggling because I built specifically against you? Who would have though.
The issue was how they stacked in conjunction with the shield creating a large amount of eHP which competed with a dedicated tanks damage reduction ability which any ad damage building champ could achieve with ease.
" - that's default saying that you must have a mage at all times, which is the exact problem.
Well yeah. You need mixed damage types so that you can effectively damage everyone at all times. Just as you want an rADC because of their effectiveness against towers and scaling capability. God forbid you have variety for effectiveness. Clearly it's a problem when the main magic dealing damage class sees use because it's the main magic damage dealing class!
That's like being upset that having at least 1 tank is good for your comp due to their cc and initiation capability.
Curses! I shouldn't have to counter build or counter pick!
Anything else can be countered, but not mages. In the past 14 games, it's always been 2 mages mid, a mage support, or a mage top. It could very well be a maokai top pumping out AP damage, but oh wells, you still deserve to lose because you didn't play a specific character.
Very sure statistics and pr play do not support such a statement. Viktor top is the only case of a kage competing up top and guess what? He counters urgent and aatrox, ad champs, who heat everyone else. I guess its convenient everyone forgot about the times of renekton too.
Call me crazy, but isn't this the exact logic in Ardent Meta? Either you have one or you're instantly at a disadvantage.
Same could be said about tanisha and adcs.
Nerf them. Plox. Ardent 8s also not comparable.
That's why I'm so against more magic pen - There's literally nothing to build. What can you actually build to counteract magic pen beyond just sitting on a null mantle? While mages pump out aoe damage in mid game teamfights, everyone else has to be stuck with building defensively?
There doesn't need to be more magic pen since it is unnecessary, but, you are truly blowing the issue of mages and their penetration values out of proportion.
You dont need anything but mull magic mantle because the mage is forced into counter building against it which sets them behind. Mages are the most resource heavy class. Being forced into oblivion orb and sorc boots over a lost chapter item is painful. Counter build according to your champ.
I'm not calling for a nerf of AP items like hashinshin, as I despise his notion that everything non-Jax should be nerfed. I want actual MR items that I can build that doesn't involve me just sitting on a null mantle all game because I have nothing to build into. This needs to happen before more magic pen items can actually exist. It's a problem when I have 2 full MR items that cost approximately 6K and I only have 150 MR.
The difference is Mr blocks all magic damage which is nigh exclusively ability based. Armor seals with physical which 8s ability and auto based hence the higher values overall. As much as everyone complains it's a damage meta, part of the issue is none wants to build defensively.
Daddy Ants2 votesLiterally just sit on Oblivion Orb until late game because it's that good. This happens 50% of the time because the magic pen is unhealthy when put with Sorc Shoes and Void Staff.
ADC has to buy early QSS? Build delayed.
Assassin / Fighter has to go Hexdrinker? build delayed.
Mage builds Oblivion Orb? Np it builds into Morellonomicon.
Bears Dont Care8 votesADC has to buy early QSS? Build delayed.
Assassin / Fighter has to go Hexdrinker? build delayed.
Mage builds Oblivion Orb? Np it builds into Morellonomicon.
You realize 15 magic pen <25 mr resist from null magic.
A mage must go void staff to counter that single item. Not every mage goes for oblivion orb either.
Let's be realistic.
Draconian5652 votesMages also have the advantage in that every champion in the game has 40-75 MR at Lv18. You don't need much more. Meanwhile armor ranges from 75-150 at Lv18.
Aazzlano1 votesYet you buy a Maw and a Mage is useless and you can stack Armor in every slot and it still doesn't save you vs an AD champ. Lol
GayFluffyUnicorn1 votesItt's 18 and don't forget we lost 12 MR you got a bunch of ridiculous AP values on cheap items+AP from runes+sudden impact and other stuff.
Mage runes/itemization is so hilariously overpowered it actually isn't funny how riot turns a blind eye on it.
Mages bitched and bitched because adcs were op. riot massively buffs mages, nerfs adcs and never dials back on mages. Great.
Tormentula4 votesItt's 18 and don't forget we lost 12 MR you got a bunch of ridiculous AP values on cheap items+AP from runes+sudden impact and other stuff.
Mage runes/itemization is so hilariously overpowered it actually isn't funny how riot turns a blind eye on it.
Mages bitched and bitched because adcs were op. riot massively buffs mages, nerfs adcs and never dials back on mages. Great.
Even with mages being strong, their itemization is very very restrictive. There's 0 diversity in mage itemization other then choosing between 
, or these other niche items to help certain mages 
over 
(in which case, you're still 100% of the time sticking with one of these items for specific champs.)
Like mages's penetration is restricted to fucking boots. Imagine if bami's cinder effect for tank junglers was restricted to boots so they can't get ninja tabi without gimping themselves in clear speed., thats basically what mages have to deal with, they don't have the luxury of being flexible, because their only pen items are tier 2 boots, an orb that only adds stats and grevious wounds when upgraded, and void staff, which is still good don't get me wrong but for the others that's kinda restricting.
They don't have a lot of options, which is kinda why they feel like walking ranged stat cannons, they need more raw power because that have no adaptability (mages would be in a better spot if they could actually counter build something. TBH I can't remember the last time zhonyas was actually built for its armor and more so just for its active.)
If built into 2 or 3 options, at least when you're buying orb, you'd have the option to pick something other then grevious wounds incase they don't have any notable healers.
and don't forget we lost 12 MR
We lost a lot of penetration too and a lot of other subtle stuff to counteract less MR.
Bears Dont Care1 votesItt's 18
oblivion orb is 15. Sorc boots are 18.
and don't forget we lost 12 MR
They increased mr across the boarenduring the rune rework.
you got a bunch of ridiculous AP values on cheap items
Overall ap is lower than it used to he.
+AP from runes+sudden impact and other stuff.
To make up for the overall lower ap and Mr penetration. Patch notes dude.
Mage runes/itemization is so hilariously overpowered it actually isn't funny how riot turns a blind eye on it.
How are they overpowered?
Mages bitched and bitched because adcs were op. riot massively buffs mages, nerfs adcs and never dials back on mages. Great.
Have you ever considered perhaps mages are simply balanced compared to adcs? Just a thought.
Emo Twink1 votesYea because Oblivion orb is the safety option out of those three. They get seekers first and are gated by mana and stacking it to get its full effects. I dont know why ur tryna compare QSS and hexdrinker to obliv orb.
Sexy Jack Rabbit1 votesI mean that's probs because is part of a lot of mages core builds.
and are used in 90% of mages builds, the same way 
are for Assassins.
The only difference is mages are more stat based then Assassins.
Sexy Jack Rabbit6 votesAm I the only one who finds it strange that and 
look so alike but aren't built from each other
flibitydoo5 voteswhat comp isn't going to have healing though?
even mitigating lifesteal is a big plus
xxxMadLionxxx8 voteswhat comp isn't going to have healing though?
even mitigating lifesteal is a big plus
Sometimes they don't run an ADC or the ADC builds lifesteal late in the game
Rathar Dashing3 votesMost teams have at least one champion who GW would be good on. Even mitigating Grasp, Taste of Blood and Ravenous Hunter makes a difference,
Votable Jester2 votesIn that case is there a need for ADs to have the other option? I think the point is more options is just nice, even if they aren't used often.
PaffWasTaken4 votesWOW! Are you insunating that mage itemisation is lacking? Quick, hide before marksmen and assassin mains complain about full pen mage builds, even if those can hardly bypass a 1300 gold item 
!
Oh wait they are already here haha. Alexa, this is so sad, can we nerf mana for no reason once again? crab rave song plays
Marian Cross3 votesNO! mage items are way too strong as is. if you want double pen then you will need to build that.
Séance4 votesI would propose having the pen as a unique passive so triple pen doesn't become a thing.
GayFluffyUnicorn1 votesShh this is mage territoriy. Mages by default are never overpowered. Even if mages are the best champs in three roles ranging from S to B tier in all those positions.
Larriet2 votesI disagree; I think Oblivion Orb is too universally good to be given a more flexible buildpath. I mean, 90% of the time, if you don't need GW, you can just sit on the item and build Morello 6th. You probably won't even get there.
Sukishoo2 votesI think it should build into , would be logical.
RisenFromTheAsh2 votesI don't think anymore percent shredding in the game as items is a good idea right now. Although i would love an AP last whisper it would break things
Draconian5651 votesYou mean Void Staff (AP Last Whisper)?
RisenFromTheAsh1 votes400 Health 50 AP 15 Magic Pen(unique)
Unique passive Overload: When you deal more than 40% of a champions max health in 3 seconds while more than x units away from them, gain 25% of the damage dealt as a shield that decays over 3 seconds (30-ish second cooldown)
Builds out of: 
This item is a defensive option for mages or hybrid champs, with a range restriction to prevent assassins from having a field day with it. What do you think?
Draconian5652 votesLet's say it's against a squishy. 800 damage on a squishy -> 200 shield over 3 seconds.
While the idea is cool, it's just going to make mages even beefier and harder to kill. They're already running around with 2.5K health with builds like rylais, liandries, and oblivion orb. Mages don't need more Health/AP items.
As for the magic pen, as long as you can't stack it with Morello's or Sorc Shoes, it would be a cool item.
Daddy Ants1 votes
needs to lose some penetration.
Mages removing ~50% of a ADC or Support's MR in lane with an 1100 gold purchase seems legit.
Draconian5651 votesHey man, mages are like "oh you should totally build a null mantle because it would completely undo the magic pen loss."
Yes, because I should delay my build on a mid-late game role like ADC because you exist instead of just buffing base MR by +13 as it was for 6 seasons.
limebuster1 votesits actually really annoying, literally every mage builds ludens with that as 2nd option 90% of the time
Ragnaveil1 votesThe last thing I need is mages having more access to mpen. If you want to do that, then might want to cough up the mpen on Sorcs. Considering the ADC changes might have Hex lose it's MR, the mpen rush usually can murder anything that has a base MR less than 70. "But Maw's buildpath will add Negatron Cloak" Yeah, let me build this 0 AD 40 magic resist 720 g item and still have to build the 1300 G and 1100 G components on top of it.
Also, its not like last season they streamlined 3 AP items around Lost Chapter and its aggravating mana passive. Like, I get what you are asking, but there's gotta be a price to it.
Śhunpo1 votes There, the item is now significantly better. Seriously, Blasting Wand is fine, but that random Amp. Tome into waiting for 1365 gold is questionable.
Make Void Staff's build path +