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Static shiv is way better for ADC that Luden Echo is for Mages.

xxxMadLionxxx··114 votes·4,012 views

Luden Echo does less damage than static shiv. The reason I say this is because static shiv can crit for about 400 magic damage with IE vs about 140 magic damage from Luden plus Rabadons.

Now you can argue, Luden echo has 100ap while static shiv has no AD. While that is true, static shiv does give 30% crit and 35% attack which when combined with 70AD from IE plus 250% crit, does a lot of damage just from stats. Static shiv also give some movespeed.

See maths at the bottom.

Whats my point? Well I know their are plenty of other things to consider such as CC movespeed armor MR and so forth. But the point I want to make is item 3089 item 3285 cost 7000 gold while item 3031 item 3087 cost 6000 while able to do more burst and sustain damage.

Luden echo cost 3200 while static shiv cost 2600.

[slayer-jinx-unamused]

Maths (You can skip this if you want)

item 3089 item 3285 = about 308 AP. Now the average mage kite has about 200-300% ap scaling in total.

Hence, 308 * 300% AP equals about 900 magic damage plus 130 magic damage from Luden passive make for a total of 1030 magic damage.

item 3089 item 3285 = 1030 magic damage.

Compared to item 3031 item 3087 and 4 auto attacks from an ADC.

IF static shiv crits it can do 400 magic damage. Now 2 auto attacks would crit for about 425 physical damage each for a total of 850. Plus 2 auto attacks that did not crit for a total of about 340 damage.

item 3031 item 3087 = 1590 mix damage

item 3089 item 3285 = 1030 magic damage. vs item 3031 item 3087 = 1590 mix damage

88 Comments

Thefrostyviking26 votes

Where were you when they buffed static in the first place?

I myself already back then wrote about 300-500 bonus damage in the mid/lategame is no joke and it will be OP if used properly but instead i myself got called a joke :(

Then when they changed RFC to energize attacks faster i went and wrote again yet people still laughed.

And here we are :(

Sun Wu Ryuumoku2 votes

ahahahahahahah [sg-miss-fortune]

Thefrostyviking3 votes

So mean ;_; item 3070

Kaeblen4 votes

A reasonable argument? A timely observation? [sg-ahri-3] Nah. ######That's heresy.

ModAcademy Kayn25 votes

Holy crap, Luden and Static are not equivalent items! Luden's is meant to add more damage onto an already bursty combo, and can be applied through different means than Static, like Xerath from range, or a proc from a DoT. Mages already do burst, and to give them the same as Static, would bring us back to DFG days.

And for pete sake, you are ignoring the fact that the 1030 damage is being done in a much shorter period, with a much longer range, with most of the time some form of utility backed behind it. You are also entirely ignoring base damage for mages, whose levels are important for their actual damage, while giving us the damage of static shiv that it has while level 18.

With two items, you're going to be much closer around level 9 if I had to guess, which means static does 91, so you actually have it doing 227.

In other words, this post is ignorant, and I'm grumpy about it cause I just woke up.

Bob the Toastr5 votes

Statikk can crit. That's probably why he has it doing 227.

xxxMadLionxxx13 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bob the Toastr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2svX9zv8,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2017-09-24T16:00:40.858+0000)

Statikk can crit. That's probably why he has it doing 227.

Yea but the crit from shiv gives a lot of burst at the start. So it gives burst and sustain damage

ZT Xperimentor3 votes

Oh is that so? Two augmentation items for carries that does splash damage on hit. You're also ignoring that mages have to aim, and have cooldowns regardless if their attacks connect; marksmen aren't limited by either.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

I'm not ignoring jack giggity. Statik's main purpose for it's AOE is Waveclear, and the fact that it does damage to champions is perhaps maybe a bit too much frosting on the cake. Luden's isn't meant to be used for Waveclear, it's meant to stack more damage on-top of the concentrated damage they already do.

Because they're already so high on burst, they don't need another item giving yet more high burst, but more damage is appreciated, especially since it can proc off DoTs, from even further range, from close range, and it's not restricted to a basic attack. Save for people like Twitch and Cait, the restriction of 550 range for that extra damage is a huge one.

GayFluffyUnicorn2 votes

No it is not for waveclear. Read patch notes more carefully when riot changed the damage to minions and champions buffing the damage to champions.

Zedex2 votes

They buffed its damage to be more a more attractive option again other champions..Its use was ONLY as a wave clear tool. They buffed it to make it more viable, but in doing so they may have gone too far. The items purpose was and is for wave clear. The fact that they buffed the damage was to make it a viable choice to purchase. There were very few scenarios in which Shiv was purchased before it became staple with the RFC.

xelaker12 votes

hand pick those problems mages, gotta look weak so you can get the next cycle of buffs right?

for fks sake people stop cherry picking items. deathcap isn't the only item you can get. try not building it and find out that there's cheaper items for more utility and understand you don't have to be the most glass cannon of them all.

Zone of Endless33 votes

{quoted}

hand pick those problems mages, gotta look weak so you can get the next cycle of buffs right?

for fks sake people stop cherry picking items. deathcap isn't the only item you can get. try not building it and find out that there's cheaper items for more utility and understand you don't have to be the most glass cannon of them all.

That's the problem. Deathcap is suppose to be the lategame item to get for your late game power spike, but it's so expensive and games are ending so much faster that other items are much better.

xelaker4 votes

so don't buy it... most mages can do better with other items anyways

Zone of Endless23 votes

{quoted}

so don't buy it... most mages can do better with other items anyways

Which is what people are doing, but it's showing a big problem with AP itemization in general when mages are forgoing the late game item they're supposed to get for another.

xelaker2 votes

ap itemization is great... tons of options and choices for all sorts of mages. there's always a few items in the game that just don't stack up. adc's have the bloodthirster at 3700 mages have deathcap at 3800. the game focuses on the short and quick, big ticket items just aren't gonna carry that oomph anymore

UnboundHades25 votes

lmao what are you drinking dude

xelaker3 votes

not the kool-aid ya'll are...

UnboundHades18 votes

the problem with ap is riot gutted ap as a whole where 900-1000 ap used to be common now your lucky if you can get 800 along with the lack of diversity in the items so you find yourself building the same items every game with 1 or 2 swapped depending on the enemy team

xelaker3 votes

and smothered ap items with cdr, and other utility things. and just because a build is "the best" doesn't make it the best...

RocketRelm14 votes

item 3508

Obviously ADCs don't get it cause they don't care about the CDR, but if they want it, it is there.

nargnargnarg2 votes

Some ADC's buy it like Xayah, Lucian, and Sivir.

SephAgro1 votes

da "kool-aid" sounds way better than what you must be drinking..

xelaker1 votes

logic and truth are often bitter boi

NineTailedMystic12 votes

We want to be AP Carries, not glorified Supports with overabundant utility.

Thilmer1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zone of Endless,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2svX9zv8,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-24T14:48:02.594+0000)

Which is what people are doing, but it's showing a big problem with AP itemization in general when mages are forgoing the late game item they're supposed to get for another.

The real problem is not "don't buy Rabaddon's", the problem is "what can I buy that is not total shit an overpriced".

People that prefer AD champs never complain about this kind of thing, since all their ítems are good and ironically cheaper than they should.

LordGeovanni1 votes

Late game comes buy it. it doesnt come dont buy it.
if you first build it you wont lose out on damage just utility effects but most likely be able to crowd your enemy out and make every other item you buy more effecient immediately instead of just wanting to see 200 extra ap at one time rather than building up 30 extra ap per item. item 3089 has the same problem as item 3027 and item 3003 not that they arent strong just that players are always comparing the max strength which has to build up to the initial strength which is great for the part of the game you get it in but because it isnt over loaded all at one time (item 3165 ) they feel like its not worth. Players also dont value the scaling of the item where you could have just lost a fight come right back to lane and win because you got scaling that tipped the fight into your favor.

Zone of Endless2 votes

{quoted}

Late game comes buy it. it doesnt come dont buy it.
if you first build it you wont lose out on damage just utility effects but most likely be able to crowd your enemy out and make every other item you buy more effecient immediately instead of just wanting to see 200 extra ap at one time rather than building up 30 extra ap per item. item 3089 has the same problem as item 3027 and item 3003 not that they arent strong just that players are always comparing the max strength which has to build up to the initial strength which is great for the part of the game you get it in but because it isnt over loaded all at one time (item 3165 ) they feel like its not worth. Players also dont value the scaling of the item where you could have just lost a fight come right back to lane and win because you got scaling that tipped the fight into your favor.

I forgot to address one more thing, or maybe i'm just not specific enough, but path build for some AP items are also very terrible and inefficient. Deathcap is one of those items because it has three components that are very terrible. They offer only pure AP, which is fine because Deathcap is pure AP scaling, but having 3 slots taken by needless large rod, blasting wand, tome, and then having to sit on it for 1265 gold isn't good when games are ending at 30 minutes mark or less. The way it is now AP items need to be taken a look at and need to be tuned so that they fit the pace the game is going.

Players don't value the scaling stat of AP items because game are ending faster than they used to. While you're waiting for your tear to fully stack your mid inhib just went down.

LordGeovanni1 votes

bull shit cause those scaling items are all effeicent early game for their stats they just scaling to be far far better late game. and you cant cry about you only getting damage on damage items then say mages dont do enough damage. but adcs getting damage items with little to no utility are getting better damage out put. mages current build path is for early game efficiency and thats fine but dont cry that your early game items dont scale into late game.

Votable Jester2 votes

The problem with building Rab is the sheer amount of gold you need to finish it at the point of the game where it's actually worth buying (generally when you only have 1-2 slots for components). You're stuck sitting on a NLR and maybe a Blasting Wand waiting for 1700g if you have both, 2550g if just the NLR. That is the most painful wait in the game.

LordGeovanni1 votes

Rabadons is just as efficent if you build it first as if you build it sixth the component may not be slot effeicent but then you could always build it when you have 3 free spaces. like i said you want to see a 200 ap spike rather than getting a 30ap spike from every other item you build that is a player mindset problem not an item problem.

Votable Jester1 votes

It is not equally efficient because it gives a % AP increase. That makes it only gold efficient as a 3rd+ item, and still inefficient compared to alternatives utnil at least 4. Even as a 4th item, others like Void Staff or Liandry's take greater priority. Thus when it's finally worth building Rabadon's, it costs a fortune to finish.

LordGeovanni1 votes

30% extra ap from each item as it is built

Votable Jester1 votes

Yeah, that's not very good when you don't yet have much AP built.

BTW I'm not the one downvoting you, not even once.

LordGeovanni1 votes

the point is that you guys only see getting a large chunk of ap at one time when you still get that ap when you buy each item after rabadons

Votable Jester1 votes

Yes, but the fact of the game is that until you actually get that AP, the item is inefficient.

If you have an item that is currently inefficient and your opponent has an item that is already efficient, it's as though you've already fallen behind them, even if you're even on gold. That can lead to you getting bullied and actually falling behind on gold.

I'm not saying Rabadon's is inefficient all game if you buy it early. It's just that until you get some other items, it is not as good as the alternatives. This gets you to the issue where if you buy it later (when it is actually worth its price), you can't hold all the components and the combine cost becomes absurdly high.

nargnargnarg1 votes

Xelaker is saying that the op should have used a different example than Deathcap because no one builds it.

Xelaker is saying he purposely chose item 3089 +item 3285 because it's a lot more expensive than item 3031 +item 3087 , but in a reality it doesn't really matter because no one builds deathcap. (sorry for run- on sentence).

It would have been better to compareitem 3087 +item 3031 to items AP champions actually build.

EDIT: Changed og to op

Zone of Endless1 votes

{quoted}

Xelaker is saying that the og should have used a different example than Deathcap because no one builds it.

Xelaker is saying he purposely chose item 3089 +item 3285 because it's a lot more expensive than item 3031 +item 3087 , but in a reality it doesn't really matter because no one builds deathcap. (sorry for run- on sentence).

It would have been better to compareitem 3087 +item 3031 to items AP champions actually build.

Deathcap+Luden is a fair comparison to IE+Shiv. Deathcap is the IE for mages and luden is an offensive item as is Shiv. All mages should be getting Deathcap late game because it give them a lot of power just like how IE give ADC a lot of power. The problem is the length of the game is shorten and the build path of Deathcap is so terrible that no mages ever want to buy it. The thread just point to the problems with AP itemization and how it need to be looked at. I don't know what solution I can offer, but I just hope others have good ideas to spark a discussion so that Riot can take notes.

Seolhyunari7 votes

I made a thread about this and compared their cost efficiency. The thread got 200+ upvotes but still no response. Anyway I believe the general consensus wasn't that Luden's was too weak it's just that Shiv is way just way too op. The proc does a ridiculous amount of damage, even more than duskblade when it crits.

XxxLumberJackxxX7 votes

Op misses a few of the problems with stattick. The item does too much Multiplies aa damage with crit and as. Provides too much waveclear Provides aoe damage in team fights Provides Burst damage

One of the biggest things the energized items need is... No more proccing on crit or in combat. Charge it up once and be done.

Why? It's too reliable. Juggernauts can't charge dead man in combat to offset their weakness, shurelya can even be blocked by the enemy frontline. This is working as intended, But when vayne can remove ALL her intended weaknesses by buying the zeal items with no downtime or counterplay... That's b.s. Range? Rapid fire Aoe? Runaans and AND shiv Burst- Shiv!

No other class gets to offset all weakness, CHEAPLY and able to recharge them in combat

SB Arneeman1 votes

It's so dumb to give adcs waveclear, burst and the stats they want with one item. Why in the world should adcs have better waveclear than mages from getting the standard item build? They are single target focused! it makes no sense.

abbbez5 votes

doing so that Static shiv would deal physical damage might make it pretty balanced. (as logn as it won't proc lifesteal)

Cowseed1 votes

Yeah but a mage can also have large aoe like karthus and the lock on ult or teemo with the global shrooms. Shiv can only be activated in auto range.

Ludends really shouldn't do as much damage in my opinion because of factors like this.

Sinlaire8 votes

Ashe Jinx both wanna say Hi to your large AOE damage with item 3085 and global ults with hard cc or execute damage as well.

not to mention it's been shown that If Karthus has Ludens and ults an entire team the ludens only procs on one enemy and not all 5. While Jinx/ashe can catch 2-5 enemies in one shiv proc while not caring less if it procs when they land ult. Jinx wants them dead on ult and ashe only wants them cc'ed long enough someone else makes them dead.

The fact that Luden's can be set off globally through certain mage spells and interactions can even be a hindrance. If Teemo gets ludens to proc on a mushroom, he now loses on being able to hold on to it and strike a target in front of him with it. Karthus can't choose whom his ult unleashes it onto. ADC's get to choose who shiv hits every. single. time. Meaning ADCs get to use it as an intentional damage amp 100% of the time and mages get to use it whenever some part of their kit doesn't take that control away from them.

so it does less damage AND is less reliable.

Cowseed2 votes

Please thing about what you're writing. These are ults on adcs which is far from they're primary source of damage. They are global but the aoe is still small, that and they can be blocked. The case with all adc ults of this nature.

not to mention it's been shown that If Karthus has Ludens and ults an entire team the ludens only procs on one enemy and not all 5. While Jinx/ashe can catch 2-5 enemies in one shiv proc while not caring less if it procs when they land ult. Jinx wants them dead on ult and ashe only wants them cc'ed long enough someone else makes them dead.

Ludens can proc on multiple people same as shiv. And as I said it's only limited to auto range.

The fact that Luden's can be set off globally through certain mage spells and interactions can even be a hindrance. If Teemo gets ludens to proc on a mushroom, he now loses on being able to hold on to it and strike a target in front of him with it. Karthus can't choose whom his ult unleashes it onto. ADC's get to choose who shiv hits every. single. time. Meaning ADCs get to use it as an intentional damage amp 100% of the time and mages get to use it whenever some part of their kit doesn't take that control away from them.

Why are you talking like it's a one time use type of thing. He can just walk around and charge it again. The person who steps on teemo's shroom takes massive damage from doing so probably even giving him a kill. There isn't any real hindrance here.

Mages can already do large aoe burst and the ability to actually choose who gets bursted more or giving them more burst is just gonna be overkill. Then you have to also consider assassins that can pop off relatively easily, the fact that mages will take thunderlords that also adds burst where as an adc rarely goes in that tree. Wanting more ludens burst is kind somewhat entitlement given that mages and other ap champs already have multiple burst options outside of their already bursty kits.

tl;dr

Luden's doesn't need more burst because of: -bursty kits -thunderlords -range advantage -other bursty items

Wildlife15 votes

The same can be said for adc's shouldnt have shiv.

Shiv needs less burst because of:

-they are intended to do ad damage -have range advantage -shouldnt be bursty

  • warlords -RFC
Aria Storm1 votes

Probably because, by and large, AP generally scales harder. One AP for a mage, is likely 2-3 AD for a AD. It's why I hate Veigar's AP stacking ability.

I don't think its the pure damage that made Shiv stronger, its how it hits every target in a small area, where Ludens only hits 3. And those three things it hits, I don't think even prioritizes champions.

xJLx MCHammer3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Karui Yoru,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2svX9zv8,comment-id=000f,timestamp=2017-09-25T02:30:55.216+0000)

Probably because, by and large, AP generally scales harder. One AP for a mage, is likely 2-3 AD for a AD. It's why I hate Veigar's AP stacking ability.

I don't think its the pure damage that made Shiv stronger, its how it hits every target in a small area, where Ludens only hits 3. And those three things it hits, I don't think even prioritizes champions.

SO wrongggg

EkyonKun4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Karui Yoru,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2svX9zv8,comment-id=000f,timestamp=2017-09-25T02:30:55.216+0000)

Probably because, by and large, AP generally scales harder.

????????????????????????? I have never been so confused in my whole life.

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