So with Rylies at 20% slow and blue buff no long gives 15% AP,... can we buff back the ap items?

xxxMadLionxxx·Aug 16, 2017·240 votes·6,106 views

Remember when riot wanted to make mages more about utility and buffed Rylies? They subsequently nerfed a lot of the ap items slowly. They also justified it by making blue buff give 15% ap. That's now gone.

The result is AP items were nerfed across the board while is super cost ineffective until late game.

What we have now are low ap items with no reason to justify it.

Riot needs to buff back the ap items and make Death cap cost effective as a second or third item.

184 Comments

InstaPoppyAug 16, 201764 votes

Blue feels incredibly underwhelming imo, most mages can get all the mana they need with just morello and the cdr is only usefull early because you likely end up at 40% lategame anyways. Meanwhile red has overtime true damage, frozen mallet slow and warmogs like regen out of combat.

Ben SharpioAug 16, 201736 votes

good. At least junglers actually get one of their buffs now. All of the selfish mid laners and adcs taking blue buff, raptors, red buff ect like holy shit its a nightmare

øHaruøAug 16, 201723 votes

I remember the days where Midlanders just walked to my 2nd spawn blue buff without a word and just waited for me like....bitch

OHminusAug 16, 201729 votes

summoner 11

yay nibbersAug 16, 20175 votes

The appropriate response to anyone who thinks they're entitled to your jungle no matter what mob it is.

RavenMagusAug 16, 20179 votes

Well, to be fair, blue buff was incredibly powerful for midlaners those days, and if you hogged your blue buff while the enemy team's jungler donated theirs, then you just auto lost midlane.

LordGeovanniAug 17, 20171 votes

funny how 15% ap wins mid lane early but 35% ap early isnt worth buy

RavenMagusAug 18, 20173 votes

one of those was free, the other is extremely not free.

GayFluffyUnicornAug 17, 20174 votes

And then complaining about being hardstuck. Why would a midlaner need 15% AP, mana regen and cdr right? Your sejuani or lee need it SO MUCH MORE. The only selfish ones are junglers taking every single buff and then blaming their teammates getting pushed in.

deadlychuckAug 16, 201728 votes

This is normal for riot sadly.

They make a change, do all of the necessary changes to support that change, then when they realize that the change was a terrible decision (half the time so bad that actual implementation was completely unnecessary to come to that conclusion) they half way back peddle, reverting the change, but leaving the complementary changes. As pointed out in the OP, cut the AP from the blue buff, but leave the nerfs to AP items.

This is what happened with the malzahar rework. They tried to push some half baked rework, failed to fix any of his problems, caused more problems to go with it, so they half way back track on the changes, giving him back his flat damage on his R, his flash, Q, E, W, R combo, but not returning his AD play style, removing his new spell shield, or reverting the swarm design of the voidlings.

It's possible that these half reverts were actually the goal of the initial changes, "we want to nerf AP items, but we can't just nerf them, so we buff something else, nerf them in reaction, then remove the buff". But i think it's probably safer to say that it's just incompetence and laziness. I understand when you're working on a kind of extreme development cycle like riot uses, it's tedious to literally code back in the things you just removed. So i think they actually just make a mess trying to spice things up and just leave it not wanting to clean it up.

Voluug13Aug 17, 20176 votes

The funny thing is that the few issues that Malz actually had (if you asked anyone that wasnt an assassin main), were only worsened tenfold while destroying his skillfloor.

New W? Yeah sure lets give Malz on-demand voidlings for 1/10 the original mana cost and 1/3 the original cd and expect his laning isnt actually worse. Reduced bases and less burst? Sure lets delete Malz's niche, making him a shitty generalist low range that needs to be overtuned to be relevant. Shield passive? Sure lets delete one of the glaring weaknesses that allowed Malz to have his laning and overall power, while nerfing his R's counterplay. Lets put his W on his R? Sure lets delete the only tool Malz has a battle mage to threaten tankiness. While excusing the removed damage from the ult itself.

Every single aspect of the rework was done with such levels of stupidity and a sheer lack of understanding of the champion that it hurted my eyes to read them.

RainXBladeAug 18, 20172 votes

Sadly, I have to agree with this as a Malzahar main. I loved the old and new Malz, but I was disgusted at how much damage I can do with this guy. Even before they half-reverted the changes to his kit, his voidlings were cancer to deal with from the start. Also, as much as I liked the passive shield, it prevents Malz from buying a Banshee's (which is a core item to fight mages with) since any spell can pop both the passive and that item, and I even build Banshee's on this guy back then.

Edit: Surely, Malz is a good example of unhealthy design, but I just can't help and play him as he is my go-to champ when I have a bad day.

Jackom1Aug 16, 201717 votes

AP itemisation needs more depth. AD champions have just so much diversity in terms of item, whether you need lifesteal, AS, crit, %armor shred, flat armor penetration, CDR, resistances. AP items have more or less variations of AP, mana and CDR, despite the AP champions category is as diverse as the AD side.

Also AD items have better passives/actives overall.

Leaf on BushAug 16, 20172 votes

AD is used for auto attack damage and ability scaling. Ability power is only used for abilities (hence we call it ability power). If Riot creates a champion and they decide that it shall have scaling abilities but not have scaling auto attack damage then they will use AP scaling. Your champion is an AP champion BECAUSE it was designed not to have scaling auto attack damage.

Now you are asking for AP items that are equivalent to crit items??? This is complete nonsense. It's ridiculous what kind of bullshit people make up because they literally just want their champions buffed.

Also if you would actually think before writing you would realize that crit is a percentage boost to raw damage and item 3089 does exactly that for mages.

NineTailedMysticAug 17, 20171 votes

And Deathcap is the most expensive item in the game (3800), has an awful build path (NLR, Blasting Wand, Amp Tome), and a high combine cost (1265, 1700 if you can't slot in an Amp Tome which is really common).

Leaf on BushAug 17, 20171 votes

But you understand that crit is for auto attackers and mages don't need items for auto attack scaling...right?

NineTailedMysticAug 17, 20172 votes

I mean, Nashor's and Lich Bane disagree a little, but I don't think anyone asked for legit AA scaling AP.

Arsenic SulfurAug 17, 20172 votes

Maybe because AP doesn't have to cover anything really different from each other?

Battle mages/tanks can just take the bulkier options like GLP, RoA, Liandries, etc.

Burst/artillery mages take the same shit because all they care about is damage.

AP assassins take stuff that also gives movespeed.

Meanwhile AD has to cover ADCs, AD assassins, juggernauts, on-hit, and AD casters all of which want different things for different jobs. ADCs need the zeal items to tank/tower bust, AD assassins need lethality to kill squishies, Juggernauts need anti-kite/bulky items to do their job, on-hit needs AS, and casters need CDR so it makes sense that AD has a bigger pool.

Jackom1Aug 18, 20171 votes

Yes and no, AP champions have their categories as much as their AD counterparts.

Battlemages do tons of damage during a protracted teamfight, a could use items that amplify their ability to either slowly kill the frontline or to deal consistent amounts of aoe to the whole enemy team.

Burst mages can create zones of threat, a can 100-0 a squishy target with ease. They can't get past the frontline though, so they could either use items that make them somewhat dangerous to tanks/bruiser (doesn't mean the should be able to oneshot tanks, of course), or items that help them attack the backline with the proper positioning. Also they tend to have some form of CC, that makes them still useful even if they're waiting for their damaging abilities to recharge. But it's better for them to focus on the burst, rather than becoming CC machines.

AP assassins tend to have more AoE and/or CC than AD assassins, while still having the access to the backline that ad assassins have, and burst mages don't. Katarina has the AoE of burst mages and the mobility of assassins, but lacks the CC that pretty much every burst mage has, while Fizz has some CC and initiation, at cost of some AoE damage (he still destroys single targets). Akali's kit has aged really well so I won't talk about her :P.

And these are just the main categories, that where introduced by riot. If you want you can differentiate mages even further. Heck, Karthus single target Q and Anivia empowered E count as crits, and that's intended, so much that their damage is reduced by randuin. Instead of fixing that, I'd say they should delve deeper into the idea of mages with the ability to crit (of course with the proper items, not with infinity, shiv and such). Azir and cassio are considered as some sort of AP carries, why not expand on that? Cho is an AP juggernaut, problem is, there's no AP item that properly shreds MR, which means that even his E at high levels doesn't help that much, and he only relies on his R, which is a tad too strong right now. Give him an item that shreds MR and maybe he won't need that much true damage.

But if you're talking specifically about the items AP champs currently have, you're totally right.

xxxMadLionxxxAug 18, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Yes and no, AP champions have their categories as much as their AD counterparts.

Battlemages do tons of damage during a protracted teamfight, a could use items that amplify their ability to either slowly kill the frontline or to deal consistent amounts of aoe to the whole enemy team.

Burst mages can create zones of threat, a can 100-0 a squishy target with ease. They can't get past the frontline though, so they could either use items that make them somewhat dangerous to tanks/bruiser (doesn't mean the should be able to oneshot tanks, of course), or items that help them attack the backline with the proper positioning. Also they tend to have some form of CC, that makes them still useful even if they're waiting for their damaging abilities to recharge. But it's better for them to focus on the burst, rather than becoming CC machines.

AP assassins tend to have more AoE and/or CC than AD assassins, while still having the access to the backline that ad assassins have, and burst mages don't. Katarina has the AoE of burst mages and the mobility of assassins, but lacks the CC that pretty much every burst mage has, while Fizz has some CC and initiation, at cost of some AoE damage (he still destroys single targets). Akali's kit has aged really well so I won't talk about her :P.

And these are just the main categories, that where introduced by riot. If you want you can differentiate mages even further. Heck, Karthus single target Q and Anivia empowered E count as crits, and that's intended, so much that their damage is reduced by randuin. Instead of fixing that, I'd say they should delve deeper into the idea of mages with the ability to crit (of course with the proper items, not with infinity, shiv and such). Azir and cassio are considered as some sort of AP carries, why not expand on that? Cho is an AP juggernaut, problem is, there's no AP item that properly shreds MR, which means that even his E at high levels doesn't help that much, and he only relies on his R, which is a tad too strong right now. Give him an item that shreds MR and maybe he won't need that much true damage.

But if you're talking specifically about the items AP champs currently have, you're totally right.

Well yea you make a good point here in that there aren't as many ap champs as AD, but they are just as diverse while all using the same small group of items.

Death by GlamourAug 16, 20178 votes

Erm no...

Why not just buff the individual mages that need it rather than doing it across the board which would cause more problems

LiteUpSketchersAug 16, 20175 votes

Nah, the only mages that would need to be nerfed with the item buffs would be Malzahar and Kassadin.

Death by GlamourAug 16, 201714 votes

Yeah sure...

I think you are forgetting about the ones the see play less often.

Annie viegar blue bird to name 3

SpoofghoulAug 16, 201711 votes

with blue bird you mean Ryze after his next 7 reworks right??

dont trust girlsAug 16, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pink Leg Warmers,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Wea00ngx,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-08-16T12:40:09.582+0000)

Yeah sure...

I think you are forgetting about the ones the see play less often.

Annie viegar blue bird to name 3

Annie is super played

Sexy Jack RabbitAug 16, 20171 votes

Yeah https://image.prntscr.com/image/rAoG0R4LT8i59yEyjRrcWg.png Annie sure is https://image.prntscr.com/image/XsjXyTobT7m_jurWdq-8XA.png Played a tonne https://image.prntscr.com/image/aPxN9bNtTou0-Ku66UCCjA.png

dont trust girlsAug 16, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Yeah https://image.prntscr.com/image/rAoG0R4LT8i59yEyjRrcWg.png Annie sure is https://image.prntscr.com/image/XsjXyTobT7m_jurWdq-8XA.png Played a tonne https://image.prntscr.com/image/aPxN9bNtTou0-Ku66UCCjA.png

So to point out the scale of that okay. Ahri is always very popular right she's at 7% play rate. Orianna is at a 9% play rate. Annivia is at a 3.5% play rate. Annie is at nearly a 2% just about. No she's not the most popular champion right now but Orianna is probably one of the most popular MID lane champs then yeah annie is still played a ton.... Also the highest champion playrate right now is Tristana with a 20%. Which one could argue 20% is still REALLY LOW. Mhm.

Sexy Jack RabbitAug 17, 20175 votes

Annie is played at MAXIMUM 2%. If we're going by OP.gg which is the most reliable it's at 1.5%, which is pathetically low. She's played less then Kayle is right now, and that's saying something. As much as there is such a massive circlejerk around Annie being OP and Busted, she's legitimately not played much or is even that good of a champion right now.

You can't argue that 20% is a low playrate.

EkyonKunAug 18, 20172 votes

Friendly neighborhood math geek here. Based on op.gg, I've compiled average pick rates for every role as comparison for what is a high or low pick rate. The math being a 200% pick rate (There are always 2 champions in each role in each standard game) divided by the viable champion pool for that role. Some off-meta picks will cause minor errors in data, but nothing significant.

Top: 4.651% (43 champions) Jg : 5.128% (39 champions) Mid: 4.651% (43 champions) Adc: 12.5% (16 champions) Sup: 7.143% (28 champions)

So, yes, 1.5%-2% pick rate is low for mid lane, while a 20% play rate is higher than average for Adc. Just thought I'd chime in is all.

Very Hard EngageAug 16, 201732 votes

AP vs surviveabilty should be a choice.

mages want burst or more build options, all of mages right now are hard garbo after 3 items unless they're attacking a squishy.

what if i told you a mage had 900 AP, 1600 health(total), and 40 armor, and 10% cdr. no zhonyas /defensive active. would you want to go ham after that mage? and in return that mage could also combo a tank for half their health and need to actually wait 11s before engaging again?

Death by GlamourAug 16, 20173 votes

AP vs tanks should be an option but simply buffing AP on items isn't the solution to it.

2 things people have seen to forgotten

CDR is easy to get for all mages now even for the likes of kennen and vlad who would never reach the cap previously.

The other is the most mages bring massive aoe damage to the game. So why should all mages be buffed to be able to burst one person when half of the roster would be able to burst an entire team.

Very Hard EngageAug 16, 201739 votes

mages dont need buffs. they need to have build options.

its impossible to avoid 40% cdr and health stacking as any item that claims to be a damage item is really a mixture item.

mages want damage damage ramp up.

classic mage damage build, tear, DFG, sorc boots, rab cap, void staff, seraphs, zhonyas. as games routinely hit 35minutes instead of ff at 20/ or inhib at 22 with nexus siege at 25.

mages used to hit 850 - 900 AP.

new mage build routinely have 2 health items, 1 CDR focused item and it leaves for a build of roughly 550AP. no rab cap? good luck breaking 500.

basically what im getting at, if you want to build a carry level of damage in the form of magic instead of ad you just cant do it these days, you're dependent on a second rotation or playing a spam mage.

http://champion.gg/statistics/#/roleSort=Top&sortBy=general.totalDamageDealtToChampions&order=descend?sortBy=general.totalDamageDealtToChampions&order=descend

"damage dealt to champs"

poke mages on top, to be expected. ziggs, xerath, karthus, vel koz.

and burst mages (veigar, zilean, annie) are way way way at the bottom, dealing about half as much damage over the course of the game. making them straight up hit/miss based around who they're up against or what the enemy team builds, health/mr completely negates the champion with no build alternatives.

Death by GlamourAug 16, 20172 votes

Why are we arguing we agree that mages do not need a buff that would effect the entire class and that more build options are needed.

SpiritOfOdysseusAug 16, 20173 votes

I think it should be noted that the likes of Ziggs, Xerath, Karth, Vel are all AoE mages whilest Veigar, Zilean(to an extent), and annie are all focus mages. So yes, damage for damage the AoE mages will dish out more damage per game- but that does not always translate well when it comes to dealing damage to those that matter.

Automated RivenAug 16, 20173 votes

Annie has a fair amount of aoe abilities. And in team fights she is going to be trying to hit multiple members with them. She just suffers from short range.

AirKingNeoAug 16, 20176 votes

Only if we nerf the broken AP items to compensate:

item 3165 item 3151 item 3135

Not like mages are suffering right now. Needless buffs would make them overpowered.

EDIT: Board's mage bias. Forget that existed.

GrReaper96Aug 16, 20177 votes

item 3151 item 3135 are perfectly fine. Admittedly item 3165 currently overshadows a lot of other AP items

BlåbæretAug 16, 201722 votes

{quoted}

Admittedly currently overshadows a lot of other AP items'

Because everything else is garbage lol.

EkyonKunAug 16, 201712 votes

Hey man we have good items. Like.... item 3165 ..........and.....................and............ ........uh....we also have item 3157 which I hear is still the most OP item in game. A zed main told me once. And don't think I forgot.........

SnugglePuggle94Aug 16, 20172 votes

But then...Zhonya's has actually been nerfed badly so it's not a top item anymore, only useful for it's active. The AP and armor have been nerfed heavily on it, and the cooldown on the active was increased way too much. It's not a top item like it used to be anymore.

Meeks011Aug 17, 20179 votes

Remember when AP items used to give 80-120 AP?

NvestmentPlankerAug 17, 20171 votes

item 3003 item 3146 item 3030 item 3151 item 3089 item 3027 item 3115 item 3165 item 3135 wow. it's amazing that all these items give 80 or more ability power.

Infinite SaughtAug 17, 201710 votes

Let's see... Deathcap is never built much anymore because of the gold sink involved in making it. Nashor's is only really viable on Kayle. Rod of the Ages by itself doesn't have 80 AP immediately; you need to wait 5 minutes while having the item for that to happen. Archangel is also unviable because Tear rush is worse than Catalyst (why get just mana when you can get Health, both restorations, and more immediate mana from just 350 more gold?).

And not all mages build GLP, Gunblade, or Liandry's. Some might opt for Haunting Guise but don't upgrade it until really late game. GLP is meant for champions who are mid range damage over time mages (like Aurelion or possibly Anivia). Gunblade is meant mostly for AP Assassins cause of the active. Oh, and all the mana items are unviable on manaless AP mages.

ThilmerAug 17, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Infinite Naught,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Wea00ngx,comment-id=00060000000000000000000000020000,timestamp=2017-08-17T05:23:56.560+0000)

. Oh, and all the mana items are unviable on manaless AP mages.

I bougth Rumble a week ago and can't really think how to build him.

Champion SkinAug 17, 20174 votes

item 3165 is rather over the top yes with it giving such strong stats 100 AP + 20% CDR on top of also giving mana and mana sustain and some utility in GW

For DPS item 3165 is probably stronger than item 3089 (and that's not even mentioning the cost)

CDR 0% ---> 10/10 = 1 10% ----> 10/9 = 1.111 times as many spells 20% ----> 10/8 = 1.25 times as many spells 30% -----> 10/7 = 1.429 times as many spells 40% -----> 10/6 = 1.667 times as many spells

50% = 10/5 = 2 times as many spells (half the cooldown obviously means you get twice as many abilities off in the same amount of time)

0 ---> 20% CDR = 1.25 - 1 = 0.25 (25% increase in DPS) 10% ---> 30% CDR = 1.429 - 1.111 = 0.318 (31.8% increase in DPS) 20% ---> 40% CDR = 1.667 - 1.25 = 0.417 (41.7% increase in DPS)

item 3165 gives 25% - 41.7% increased ability DPS (if abilities are used as soon as possible and you don't buy it while having over 20% CDR)

Yes item 3089 increase AP by 35% BUT for most champions the base damage will be a big part of the damage abilities deal which the % AP increase doesn't affect so the DPS increase will be a lot less than 35% (though of course CDR doesn't help much with up front damage unless the abilities are on a short cooldown like Karthus Q or Cassiopeia E)

Voluug13Aug 17, 20173 votes

.... Void Staff could be perfectly fine if it werent for the fact they have been buffing MR to ridiculousl levels while removing AP and Rabadon is such a useless item rn.

Maybe if every single role didnt have strong MR options (while only ADs and Tanks have decent armor items) Void Staff couldnt be as strong as it is rn. Nerfing it (or Liandri's) its just attacking the symtomp of the shitty AP itemization/too much MR itemization issue.

AirKingNeoAug 17, 20172 votes

MR hasn't been buffed though.

Every role doesn't have strong MR itemization. ADCs have two. Assassins have one. Fighters have 1 and then 2 more if you include tank options. Tanks have 3.

AP itemization isn't shitty. It's just in a terrible spot balance wise. RoA, Tear, Ludens, Deathcap, and GLP suck while Morello, Liandyr's, and Void are overpowered.

kile147Aug 17, 20175 votes

I mean MR was buffed when they gave every champ scaling MR. ADC's used to be locked at 30 MR, but now get about extra 8.5 MR throughout the game. It's not huge but it effectively negates the MPen most mages take with their runes.

Voluug13Aug 17, 20172 votes

Liandri's wasnt even a good item (aside its niche heroes) until very, very recently, when they introduced even more MR options for tanks and gave scaling MR to everyone, which made the extra MR kinda of a necesity.

Void Staff became ''too strong'' because it can be actually bought at realistic times while Rabadon is awful on top of unwieldy. The difference for most AP champions between the two items, for their cost, is rather small.

Both items were always niche buys until the latest seasons when they nerfed AP items, made Rabadon unwieldy, and buffed/added Offense&MR hybrid items.