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Why riot hates SILENCES?

Ahristocats··26 votes·2,863 views

Cho'Gath Feral Scream (W) : Cooldown lowered to 13/12/11/10/9 from 13 Silence duration lowered to 1.5/1.62/1.75/1.88/2 from 1.5/1.75/2/2.25/2.5 [NEW] "Acquires target post-cast rather than pre-cast"** Range increased to 650 from 585

"We're aiming for power neutral, or slight buff with the Cho changes. Primary goal is to modernize the W so that it gets targets at the end of the cast rather than at the beginning. It's one of the last spells left that functions that way resulting in lack of clarity,** feeling of unfairness and limited counterplay**. Given that's a nerf in and of itself we're changing the CD so it reduces with rank which should add quite a lot of power. The silence is also longer than we generally feel's appropriate so we're trimming that slightly too."

WHAT THE FUCK

i'll try to keep my calm but this is just too much,there is a part in this quote that shows how riot has no clue in their design/decision

first: **you don't change someone because he "feels" unfair, just because YOU feel that he's unfair doesn't mean it's the case. **

Ekko Kalista (just examples) are all unfair, yet they aren't having "neutral" changes like cho'gath. Heck even Yasuo is unfair, his crit build is balanced, but his windwall deleting abilities is also unfair since he can cast W instantly without delay to remove a spell, and you DON'T give a delay to his windwall to remove frustration, why?

second:** how is silence unfair?** you're trying to "modernize" his spell, i just say bullshit, this isn't modernizing if you want to modernise his silence you should increase its duration due to knock ups being everywhere preventing us to play. Silences just prevent you from using spells, you can still walk,** you can still buy QSS** , you can still buy tenacity, you can still autoattack, all of this not there for knock ups, how the fuck is that fair? , heck silences are always useless, this is the reason they lasts 4/5 seconds in dota2 when the game has 5/6 QSS items .

TLDR: you have no reason to do this, and if you do this to cho'gath there are no reasons to not change 50% of the champs in this game who have unfair spells.

88 Comments

Lao Fu the Tiger19 votes

You're misreading that response entirely. Even if he was saying the silence was the unfair part, there'd be no need to be rude and bash people for making decisions.

Meddler was not saying that the silence was unfair. Using the context of the paragraph, you can clearly see he's referring to Feral Scream's targeting system, which, as he stated, and anybody who plays or played against a Cho'gath knows, determines whether it hits you or not when the spell is cast rather than after it has resolved.

Have you ever flashed away from Cho'gath and seen his W animation a mile away, yet it still hit you? That's because currently, when the Cho player presses W, if you're in the cone, it doesn't matter what you do, you will be hit by Feral Scream. That is what Meddler referred to when he stated that the balance team wanted to "modernize the W so that it gets targets at the end of the cast rather than at the beginning," because that aspect "result[ed] in lack of clarity, feeling of unfairness and limited counterplay." And that's absolutely fair.

Then, the post follows up with a good explanation for the small nerf on the silence. "The silence is also longer than we generally feel's appropriate so we're trimming that slightly too."

Please, before you bash Rioters or any other players, take a few minutes to consider and read everything. It's not fair to other players and Riot employees when you make snap judgments, much less so when those snap judgments are entirely incorrect.

ProfDrDeath18 votes

unfairness and limited counterplay

That part is actually NOT refering to the silence. Rather, it references the cast mechanic of Feral Scream.

As it works on Live, Feral Scream acquires its targets when the click of your W button (or whereever you put it) registers. That means that anyone who was under the target indicator when you released the button gets hit, independently of what they did during that 0.75 second cast time. In extreme cases, you could hit a target that just teleported on the other side of the map, or someone who flashed out of the E.

The reduction in silence duration is mostly for two reasons:

  1. Feral Scream gets a significantly lowered cooldown at later ranks. As Cho loses 4 seconds of base W cooldown, but only loses 0.5 seconds of silence duration, he effectively gains CC uptime instead of losing it!

  2. It is not that Riot hates silences per se, but rather long-duration CC effects (especially when AoE) and hard CC effects on champions that offer very limited windows of interaction (aka, assassins like Kassadin, Talon, LeBlanc). Especially for the first part of that, silences are rather important offenders - in the early days of League, silence was seen as a weaker effect (because it was then, as champion were less ability-focused) and thus silence durations were generally longer. This can be seen in old Malza and Cho, both of which had 3 second AoE silences at some point.

Sona x Rubick2 votes

So what was done to avoid frustration from cho'gath instantly silencing you? reducing the duration of silence?

kek

Sakaru10 votes

... No, what they did was remove the fact that it's instantly silencing you. "Acquires target post-cast rather than pre-cast" .75 is a long enough time to get out of Dodge. 0.00 seconds is not.

This was not only said in the OP, but also in the comment to which you are replying.

Sona x Rubick1 votes

alright i admit my fault, i can't wait until riot delay every instant spell though.

Lao Fu the Tiger1 votes

...And they nearly have. Almost every spell to this moment has a cast time, whether it's 0.25 seconds like Yasuo's wall or a full second or two like Ezreal's ultimate. Cho'gath's W is literally one out of maaaaaybe two or three other spells that still use instant casting, and those other spells are on champions that haven't seen the light of day since 1999.

Champion Skin1 votes

Well yeah though cast times doesn't matter much for things which are most of the time unavoidable like Annie Q which can be a stun or auto attacks which can deal a lot of damage (Hello there Fervor of Battle)

Lao Fu the Tiger1 votes

Yes, but those are targeted abilities. The context was AOE spells that used to have immediate targeting, such as Morde's old E or Darius' old pull.

You can never dodge Annie's Q, but it's another problem entirely when Darius would try to grab you, you'd flash over a wall before the grab animation actually finished (or started for that matter) and you still got pulled back over the wall.

Sona x Rubick1 votes

tibbers Evelynn ulti Galio ult Blitzcrank ulti Renekton Q

meanwhile darius's Q gets a delay.

VoidStaresBack1 votes

While it was never mentioned, Tibbers actually appears to have received the same delay as Annie's incinerate at some point, probably in the mid year mage update, at least from my experience playing Annie. It's short, but it does exist.

Aptest2 votes

cho's silence is unfair. it is unfair towards champions that are used to having all the unfairness on their end. Ekko Riven Yasuo these champions rely on having trading patterns that leave opponents no option. they also rely on abusing cast times for other characters

instant-hit silence removes that frustration. so their mains are pissed.

DrCyanide5 votes

You know who else is pissed? Immobile Mages that blew their 5 minute cooldown Flash to get out of his silence and still got silenced.

Aptest4 votes

all them "immobile mages" outrange chogath's silence by a mile or have a higher base MS or both. there's no reason for them to even get in range. also they are unaffected by this change because they can't dodge abilities based on casting animation alone since their mobility is not enough bursty.

I repeat: the main power of "hits before the animation" spells is VS characters with "I do not get hit by this" abilities. Namely instant dashes, teleports, "skill cancels" (fizz E) jumps etc. Other characters have far less dodging power and are generally not able to cancel PBAOEs regardless of whether the spell is "hit before animation" or "hit after animation".

VS "fuck your skills" characters this is a major impact change. Because now ekko gets hit by silence and then gets fucked. whereas in future ekko phase dives the silence and fucks chogath.

Sona x Rubick1 votes

yeah, they can't get this, except annie i can't fucking understand who can be caught by cho'gath.

Aptest1 votes

spell spamming assassin'y melees.

that's who.

and they deserve to be eaten.

VoidStaresBack1 votes

Ryze, Swain, Vladimir, all the battle mages are pretty much forced to put themselves close to Cho'Gath. Burst mages less so but some of them (like Lux) have a lowered damage output from staying outside silence range.

Mira Arya Enthe8 votes

item 3070 Kassadin item 3070

Netherlife2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yBG2GmL1,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-09-09T06:04:58.835+0000)

item 3070 Kassadin item 3070

You made me laugh out loud, for realsies.

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Keepe6 votes

Kassadin

I tried to silence my- ...

Mira Arya Enthe8 votes

[{quoted}](name=playfive Koopska,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yBG2GmL1,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-09-09T06:00:22.504+0000)

Cho'Gath Feral Scream (W) : Cooldown lowered to 13/12/11/10/9 from 13 Silence duration lowered to 1.5/1.62/1.75/1.88/2 from 1.5/1.75/2/2.25/2.5 [NEW] "Acquires target post-cast rather than pre-cast"** Range increased to 650 from 585

"We're aiming for power neutral, or slight buff with the Cho changes. Primary goal is to modernize the W so that it gets targets at the end of the cast rather than at the beginning. It's one of the last spells left that functions that way resulting in lack of clarity,** feeling of unfairness and limited counterplay**. Given that's a nerf in and of itself we're changing the CD so it reduces with rank which should add quite a lot of power. The silence is also longer than we generally feel's appropriate so we're trimming that slightly too."

WHAT THE FUCK

i'll try to keep my calm but this is just too much,there is a part in this quote that shows how riot has no clue in their design/decision

first: **you don't change someone because he "feels" unfair, just because YOU feel that he's unfair doesn't mean it's the case. **

Ekko Kalista (just examples) are all unfair, yet they aren't having "neutral" changes like cho'gath. Heck even Yasuo is unfair, his crit build is balanced, but his windwall deleting abilities is also unfair since he can cast W instantly without delay to remove a spell, and you DON'T give a delay to his windwall to remove frustration, why?

second:** how is silence unfair?** you're trying to "modernize" his spell, i just say bullshit, this isn't modernizing if you want to modernise his silence you should increase its duration due to knock ups being everywhere preventing us to play. Silences just prevent you from using spells, you can still walk,** you can still buy QSS** , you can still buy tenacity, you can still autoattack, all of this not there for knock ups, how the fuck is that fair? , heck silences are always useless, this is the reason they lasts 4/5 seconds in dota2 when the game has 5/6 QSS items .

TLDR: you have no reason to do this, and if you do this to cho'gath there are no reasons to not change 50% of the champs in this game who have unfair spells.

What I love is apparently silences are unfair. But stuns, knockups, grounded, wind wall and fear are not toxic at all...

It's literally a softer CC in most cases than all of those.

You know why Riot really hates silences? It does have 'viewer clarity'. When watching LCS you see a stun or fear, it is very visual. But some casual person watching their LCS show? He doesn't know what that Null Sphere just did other than some damage.

It sucks, because silence is both my favorite form of CC to play with and against. But because it isn't blatant and flashy to the viewers, it has to go.

Kinda like they never just nerfed Kass Damage. Instead they took his silence, slow, old riftwalk mechanic, attack speed and mana stealing. Instead of just nerfing his damage when he was 'deleting people' in S 3-4.

DrCyanide1 votes

What "feels unfair" is you can dodge the silence cone and still get silence. Imagine if any other ability worked that way, and you can quickly why it's a problem.

Yes, the duration of the silence is being shortened 0.5 seconds, but he's going to be spitting out more silences per team fight.

Champion Skin1 votes

Getting more silences isn't always all that useful since most champions can unload all of their abilities immediately after the silence ends and after that silences doesn't actually have much of an effect...

The cooldown change is mostly a laning buff as Cho'gath W is his main harass tool (often saving Q as a defensive tool or when going all in)... though against mobile champions he will possibly lose damage as his W can now be a avoided

Also while not really matter much this change will also probably mean that there is probably no chance of seeing cho'gath in competitive play (unless against immobile champions who probably won't be able to avoid his W regardless of the delay?)

Boulderox1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yBG2GmL1,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-09-09T06:08:41.692+0000)

What I love is apparently silences are unfair. But stuns, knockups, grounded, wind wall and fear are not toxic at all...

It's literally a softer CC in most cases than all of those.

You know why Riot really hates silences? It does have 'viewer clarity'. When watching LCS you see a stun or fear, it is very visual. But some casual person watching their LCS show? He doesn't know what that Null Sphere just did other than some damage.

It sucks, because silence is both my favorite form of CC to play with and against. But because it isn't blatant and flashy to the viewers, it has to go.

Kinda like they never just nerfed Kass Damage. Instead they took his silence, slow, old riftwalk mechanic, attack speed and mana stealing. Instead of just nerfing his damage when he was 'deleting people' in S 3-4.

Riven combo, annie combo, renekton combo, all deemed fit while most are impossible to counter/trade and can even 100-0

kJs7 votes

I made a post here awhile ago about giving the windwall itself a delay to when it blocks projectiles but I got downvoted to hell by it. This is based on that Bjergsen video where he blocks two projectile almost completely coming from opposite directions with one windwal. I assumed that I was following Riot's philosophy of clarity but they're really inconsistent with their philosophy.

Sona x Rubick2 votes

i wouldn't be against a delay on yasuo's windwall, but if it's a neutral change like riot you would buff it somewhere else.

TyrekGoldenspear4 votes

I have no idea why people hate short silences.

Goes back in time and plays mid when Leblanc and Talon and Kassadin had silence.

Cries in corner after ordeal.

Champion Skin1 votes

Well the problem with those silences is that they were on burst champions who basically killed you before the silence wore off (and they also have mobility to jump on you)

FortisDominus4 votes

A 2.5 second silence is actually really long for an AOE skill...

If cho wanted to get buffed in the future they had to nerf that OP ability of his.

Dracocrash3 votes

um... Kalista has already been gutted and looks liek they are slowly gonna nerf ekko and yasuo to oblivion. So your analogy doesn't really work. (preparing for downvotes cause Im against the circle jerk)

Shadow Hazard3 votes

The unfairness is the fact that it is an AoE instant cast non ult CC

Blkninjar871 votes

That Bard So Aatrox Makes Diana Alot Soraka of Ziggs Sense RekSai :D Riven

Shadow Hazard1 votes

bard ult has a missile speed aatrox has an animation before the cc soraka has a delay and missile speed ziggs has a delay and missile speed reks cc is part of their engage pattern The only 2 that follow your attempt at a point is riven and diana

Blkninjar871 votes

Let me Help u out....

Bard Q does have a Missle speed but in melee range doesn't even matter it's practically instant. Aatrox Q animation is as long as Chogath Cast Time on Silence Soraka Equinox has no delay just a short Cast Time and Static effect Ziggs W doesn't have a cast time if used in close range.... can drop it and blow it less than a second like gragasses old ult Riven Stun isn't Instant it has a cast time who's animaion can be cancelled from Diana E has like no cast time at all. They're all AoE activated on the dime after a short cast time just like chogaths W

General Esdeath 2 votes

At the same time. Cho W works weird. If you're in range as I hit the button and (Gentleman Cho) moves his head back to yell "QUIET!" and you flash before it comes out, you're still hit.

Astôlfo1 votes

Because most silences are very short meaning burning QSS for it will most likely be a waste because between the time you get silenced and the time it takes you to realize it and then QSS it, you'd already be hit with the next few abilities/rounds of damage.

It's essentially a suppress that lets you move. It blocks off all other chances of escape or the similar. And unlike suppress, silences are on nonultimates.

I'm not disagreeing/agreeing, just trying to explain what Riot's probable stance is.

Best princess EU5 votes

in this damage creep meta, casting a spell 0.75 second earlier will make you win the fight my friend

Astôlfo1 votes

What I mean is, by the time you realize you got silenced and try to QSS it, the silence would probably already be over. And in either case, if you get silenced, you'd immediately get hit with follow up abilities/damage you can't do anything about really.

hhaavviikk7 votes

how is that different from other CC though?

Astôlfo1 votes

Because you can usually still Flash/cast SS/use most abilities with most other types of CC?

hhaavviikk5 votes

I can't flash while knocked up, supressed, snared, rooted, stunned, feared, taunted...what else am I missing exactly?

Lord Desert1 votes

you missed stasis, fling and knock back, but fling and knock back are kinda the same only in diffrent directions :D

CeexSett1 votes

So a fling is a... knock front?

IPromiseTomorrow1 votes

I think it's a volibear.

He flings you.

CeexSett1 votes

Or Singed .

Flinged.

Lord Desert1 votes

i think the correct term is displacement, but it has the same effects as a knock up, but is mostly alot shorter. examples are volis Q and singeds E

Champion Skin1 votes

Grounded?

The Deckowner1 votes

instead of doing that why don't they just fix the broken hitbox?it literally never hits when it seems like it should, and hits when it seems like the target is 5 miles away.

HailFire Dragon3 votes

this is exactly what the aquire target thing is designed to change

The Deckowner1 votes

what about also fix the visual

Julanus3 votes

Again, they're doing that.

By increasing the range, they'll have to fix the visuals to match as well.

That said, my theory is it's always been 650 range (or at least more than it appears to be), but it just never visually appeared that way.

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