Counterplay to a champion should not be "destroy them before X minutes"

Ahristocats·Jun 6, 2017·162 votes·7,683 views

this has to be the most retarded bullshit i ever heard has no counterplay period, you have xayah gimicked around feathers, cait around traps and headshot that puts a lot of power budget around bushes, draven around axes, jhin around 4th shot that leaves him weak for 2.6 seconds twitch is not limited in any way, and his ability to deal an assassin lvl of damage per second in AOE from stealth from 830 range is absolutly cancerous and overpowered as he gets to have 53.5% win rate right now

"but muh, his early game he's weak until he has 2 items"

and? want to know which game tried to balance hard carries like that? indeed dota 2

counterplay to faceless void stunning your entire team for 5 seconds and killing them all? don't get to late game lul, which wasn't a good way to balance the champion and he got reworked

this late game thing doesn't work, those champions will always either be garbage because games duration is low, or absolutly overpowered as they have no counterplay in late game

now i don't know if twitch needs a rework, but right now his no counterplay gameplay should not be allowed

262 Comments

Irelia BotJun 6, 201778 votes

And on the other end it should not be "survive for 40 minutes and they fall off" Isn't that right Renekton and Panth? Pantheon : I BROUGHT COOKIES!!!

FeelsCampedManJun 6, 201742 votes

Renekton is managable in most matchups if you play around CDs properly, and he doesn't fall off as hard as he used to, but Pantheon is a different level of bullshit entirely

DeusVultJun 6, 201716 votes

He's a relic of an older, simpler time

and so is his targeted q, which used to force him to go mana pots/tear. Years of mana changes and item changes now mean that he can go top and start item 2033 and rarely if ever, have to worry about mana. Add in how cheap lethality is to get, and you get a champ that hasnt been looked at in ages slowly creep his way to the fore because of incremental changes.

Eventually he will get a rework, but I'd rather see Q changed to a longer ranged skillshot, to break up that part of his laning phase and increase his skillcap

Troll for TrumpJun 7, 20171 votes

All juggernauts are "survive for 40 minutes and they fall off"

Big LincolnJun 7, 20176 votes

all i'm getting from this is that we should make juggernauts good late game

i agree

Big LincolnJun 6, 201718 votes

strong late game champs are fine and they are definitely necessary to keep the game from getting stagnant

but when riot has been reworking so many champs to have windows of power and very obvious counterplay, ESPECIALLY the ones who are strong early-mid game they should do the same for late game champions too

Twitch KogMaw Tristana all guilty of this as far as marksmen go, some of the melee carries are just as bad MasterYi

and twitch isn't even that weak early lol, i have never seen a "hyper carry" get so many kills even before level 6 like i do with twitch.

AhristocatsJun 6, 201711 votes

twitch is actually weak in early game, his base ad and lane presence is weaker than most early game adcs i can't see twitch winning lane in high elo unless he's against vayne maybe?

but that doesn't make him balanced

Big LincolnJun 6, 201711 votes

must just be the platinum NA monkeys i get then lul

archerno1Jun 6, 201711 votes

True. He is immune to any forms of CC, has insane move speed, dashes for days, he is tanky, you cant slow his attack speed, he has built in immunity to burst...

Oh wait.... Twitch aint got nothing of those...

Best princess EUJun 6, 201728 votes

lol this comment

better not nerf any champion then as 99% of them do not have what you described

3TWarriorJun 6, 201714 votes

he seems to be describing a combination of Master Yi and Ekko

LA LostyJun 6, 20176 votes

I think the abomination was spiced up with a spoonfull of Yasuo to top it off.

AtanchanJun 6, 20178 votes

[{quoted}](name=Janna X RubicK,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HKLEugdE,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-06-06T06:00:25.017+0000)

and? want to know which game tried to balance hard carries like that? indeed dota 2

counterplay to faceless void stunning your entire team for 5 seconds and killing them all? don't get to late game lul, which wasn't a good way to balance the champion and he got reworked

I - wha?

Faceless Void can still stun your entire team for 5 seconds and destroy them. It's just super unreliable - his rework was focused on giving him more tools that he could use early on so that you didn't have to run him as a carry to justify abusing Chronosphere. Because that was always really unreliable. But if a team is willing to take that risk, they can still have Void hard-farm to become a carry that completely disables the enemy team for 5 seconds as he and everyone with range on his team pounds into them.

Also, this may surprise you, but DOTA has 113 heroes, with quite a few of them being carries and all of them having varying power curves. And in fact, most of them have crummy early games in exchange for being absolute monsters later on, with the main counterplay late being getting off really good ganks or just having a harder scaling carry. Seriously, have you never heard of Medusa, or Spectre, or Naga Siren? Do you actually have any idea what you're talking about?

AhristocatsJun 6, 20172 votes

{quoted}

I - wha?

Faceless Void can still stun your entire team for 5 seconds and destroy them. It's just super unreliable - his rework was focused on giving him more tools that he could use early on so that you didn't have to run him as a carry to justify abusing Chronosphere. Because that was always really unreliable. But if a team is willing to take that risk, they can still have Void hard-farm to become a carry that completely disables the enemy team for 5 seconds as he and everyone with range on his team pounds into them.

the rework removed his 1300 range dash, which made him able to stun a lot of target from surprise now if he wants to engage on a lot of people, he will have to buy blink dagger which reduces his damage eventually, if he also engages with time walk he won't backtrack like before and can die easily from burst or other ranged hyper carries

keep in mind that all my dota knowledge is focused on esport and i didn't see a faceless void in pro building mask of madness+crit+agility since a long time

but rather now, it's blink dagger linken sphere and vladimir offering utility while going into the offlane instead of the safe lane and this to me, means that faceless void is no longer like before where he could stun a lot of targets, use BKB and kill everyone with tons of damage

{quoted}

Also, this may surprise you, but DOTA has 113 heroes, with quite a few of them being carries and all of them having varying power curves. And in fact, most of them have crummy early games in exchange for being absolute monsters later on, with the main counterplay late being getting off really good ganks or just having a harder scaling carry. Seriously, have you never heard of Medusa, or Spectre, or Naga Siren? Do you actually have any idea what you're talking about?

Naga Siren deals no damage if her illusions get killed Spectre defensive steroid fades with range, which means if you damage her from range she's going to be killed easily Medusa is countered by mana burn, if you also damage a lot she will lose her ability to use ult as she will end up OOM Sven is still stat-checking which is why he cannot be buffed without being broken

Icefrog made the mistake of buffing him in last patch and he ended up with 60% win rate while being pick/ban a lot, he was hotfixed a week ago and now isn't picked anymore in pro

Sven needs a rework

NickssaaJun 6, 20173 votes

Icefrog made the mistake of buffing him in last patch and he ended up with 60% win rate while being pick/ban a lot, he was hotfixed a week ago and now isn't picked anymore in pro

Sven needs a rework

Uhm, no. First I want to mention that Sven was just picked by VP an hour ago in their game against IG, and they just picked him again for game 3. Also, the buff was more of a mini-rework to his ult, sacrificing a bit of damage for more tankiness, as well as made ancient stacking a lot more viable. Sven is in a fine spot right now.

And to your point where most carries have a weakness that needs to be countered with such as mana burn, sven does have some, and it mostly revolves around playing around his cooldowns. Sven is weak when BKB and God's Strength is off cooldown, and if you bait him to activate it, you can play around it, and punish him afterwards.

AhristocatsJun 6, 20171 votes

isn't god's strength duration like 26 sec? how exactly do you bait it? since he also gives his entire team a sivir ult?

NickssaaJun 6, 20173 votes

First off, you can bait it, but I was mostly focusing on the BKB. If you get him to have his BKB at a 5 second duration, it is extremely possible to then lock him down with Hexes, Stuns, etc. Not to mention, certain team comps and heroes can offer large team escapes such as Underlord and Centaur, meaning that they can effectively get the team out of a fight when Sven ults, and after the 25 secs, it would be considerably safer to re-engage. However, it still is more effective to play around the BKB, and once the 5 second duration expires, you hit him with CC and other stuns and kill him. Once Sven is locked down, the rest of his team will most likely not have that much DPS, and they will more or less not be too much of a threat.

MelledoneusJun 6, 20177 votes

Fiora in a nutshell. She becomes a one man army and if she decides to 5v5, you had best pray your team is strong enough to deal with a 5v7.

OceanicEyesJun 6, 20176 votes

If I recall correctly, your previous suggestion for the stealth range nerf sounded like a good change. Forgetting the details on that suggestion though, would you mind reiterating it?

AhristocatsJun 6, 201731 votes

stealth radius increased to 575 because his AA range is 550 Eve ult range was decreased to 600 to be inferior to her stealth radius (700)

either you increase his stealth radius to 575, or you decreased his AA range

and of course, do not allow him to ult while being stealthed, so he will have to wait for the invisibility to end to ult and thus either he breaks his invisibility by an AA or he waits the end to ult in both cases this leaves you time to react to him

MaddéyJun 6, 20177 votes

But that is what his kit revolves around. If you take away the element of surprise he not only becomes utterly unfun to play as, but he will also become utterly useless as a champion. I believe its a change Riot did few seasons ago pretty counsciously, and Im glad they did.

AhristocatsJun 6, 201726 votes

useless?

how is a champion dealing over 1500 damage in 1 sec in AOE useless? no, he will be able to do his job(aoe damage from range) but with counterplay

i don't call this useless and even if he ended up useless he would be healthier and could get compensation buffs

ZerenzaJun 6, 20179 votes

Take away his element of surprise? Let me put it into perspective for you, Evelynn, Talon, Teemo, Kha'zix, Rengar. All of these champions have a stealth mechanic, you know what's different for them? They can't activate abilities while stealthed or it will reveal them. Thing is, their melee, they have to get in range, it makes sense for them to become invisible to do so especially since they sacrifice safety and mobility for it, Talon for example has no way to get out of a fight once he's in unless he hops over a wall, if he hopped over one wall to get in, he also can't use the same one to get out, you know what that is? Counter play.

A ranged champion with the kind of range that Twitch has, doesn't have to sacrifice anything for it, he can stay well out of a fight easily and unlike other stealth champions, you can't see him until after he attacks. With everyone else you can see them at least a split second before they do, rengar will actually reveal himself when he click on you with his ultimate, when he leaps out that gives you 1 second to react to him. With twitch, if you see him, he's already dealt damage.

RainbowIceeJun 6, 20172 votes

They should reduce the piercing damage. Doing less damage as it reaches back lines this allows counter play in form of peels. Also Caitly only needs traps in lane after lane face she can mostly just run and kill people with AA and rope to safety if needed. Her AA are long and punishing she by no means is limited or countered by her traps. Her traps punish you for stepping on them and it's like a bonus to her.

AhristocatsJun 6, 20175 votes

wait what?

caitlyn has no steroids, her only steroid is her passive that takes a long time to charge unless in a bush and now it takes really a lot of time to be charged since runnan doesn't affect it anymore

so cait is basically walking around without a steroid unless in a bush, this makes her automatically losing a teamfight as she will deal less damage than an other hypercarry that has a reliable steroid UNLESS someone walks in a trap to give her headshot+bonus 180+40% AD or something like that

Jax the StampedeJun 6, 20175 votes

her virtually unmatched range on her AA's is her steroid man. In fact, I see her banned more than any other champ in the game. She's banned so often that people don't see her enough to understand to bitch about her when it comes to crazy powerful champs. So yea, tell me again how she has nothing going for her. Fyi, her passive has three ways to activate. By AA stacking, her traps, and her net which is where it's crazy op. In fact, a smart cait can fire three headshots in a row if she's crafty about it. I don't mind her personally, but for you to act like she's not as big of an issue as some of the other ADCs. Well, quite frankly, that's ridiculous.

TheSingularityJun 6, 201711 votes

caitlyn has no steroids, her only steroid

Stop right there

XxDRAGONsAK47xXJun 6, 20175 votes

Its true sadly, same goes for Kog'Maw.

If you take too long to end the game and the enemy team has a decent frontline you're screwed.

DisembarkJun 6, 20172 votes

Difference is that twitch inherently creates map pressure in the game. If he's not in vision he might be in your lane. You're not gonna get flanked by a kog maw in mid lane at 7 minutes into the game.

Kog'Maw does a buttload of damage, but he doesn't have the agency to accelerate the pace of the game. A fed kog'maw can just be avoided, whereas a fed twitch will force fights and picks and make it unsafe to farm.

OdriewJun 6, 20172 votes

I've ganked mid lane as mf before, though. Don't hate on the power of running up and laying down aoe slows behind the other mid laner.

crippler38Jun 7, 20175 votes

MF walks WAY faster than koggles.

AninLegions777Jun 6, 20175 votes

Dude all stealth champs saw a bump in winrate after vision nerfs. It's the vision that sucks. We need more ward options.

PermabannedGarenJun 6, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Janna X RubicK,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HKLEugdE,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-06-06T06:00:25.017+0000)

this has to be the most retarded bullshit i ever heard has no counterplay period, you have xayah gimicked around feathers, cait around traps and headshot that puts a lot of power budget around bushes, draven around axes, jhin around 4th shot that leaves him weak for 2.6 seconds twitch is not limited in any way, and his ability to deal an assassin lvl of damage per second in AOE from stealth from 830 range is absolutly cancerous and overpowered as he gets to have 54% win rate right now

"but muh, his early game he's weak until he has 2 items"

and? want to know which game tried to balance hard carries like that? indeed dota 2

counterplay to faceless void stunning your entire team for 5 seconds and killing them all? don't get to late game lul, which wasn't a good way to balance the champion and he got reworked

this late game thing doesn't work, those champions will always either be garbage because games duration is low, or absolutly overpowered as they have no counterplay in late game

now i don't know if twitch needs a rework, but right now his no counterplay gameplay should not be allowed

Yeah cancer rat is cancer. His late game is exceedingly powerful, probably better than Vayne's, but unlike Vayne he has far more tools to let him get into or back into the game. I think a nerf to his camo range like you suggested is a solid idea, since it's probably his ability to snowball off of cheese kills from stealth around the map in mid game that makes him so powerful IMO.

On another note, seeing as you're the only high elo player that posts here, figured you might be interested in contributing to this thread:

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/jnYbU1ts-i-would-like-to-ask-high-elo-players-how-and-why-yasuo-isnt-a-problem-in-their-elo

AhristocatsJun 6, 20175 votes

{quoted}

since it's probably his ability to snowball off of cheese kills from stealth around the map in mid game that makes him so powerful IMO.

didn't even think about that, +1

{quoted}

On another note, seeing as you're the only high elo player that posts here, figured you might be interested in contributing to this thread:

thanks

MarshbouyJun 6, 20174 votes

that takes out a sizeable chunk of the roster, if you are fair and also state

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HKLEugdE,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-06-06T07:10:31.395+0000)

And on the other end it should not be "survive for 40 minutes and they fall off" Isn't that right Renekton and Panth?

then even more of the roster is gone or reworked.

TwitchInMyPantsJun 6, 20174 votes

I can't wait until Twitch loses like 5 E damage and suddenly there's a new OP lmao

Like his balance is entirely based on itemization, he's a very basic adc. When AS is too strong Twitch is too strong and the versa. He relies on getting off several procs and is single target. He's prob broke in solo queue just because he has an Eve effect and Riot has been nerfing the fuck out of wards every season, but in competitive he's situational at best. Kog tends to be better Twitch when you're in organized 5s since he has midgame powerspike and the range boost more consistently.

But you know when I read that title I don't think of Twitch, I think about how overnerfed Trist and Kalista are and how Yasuo is constantly rebalanced. They don't know how to do late game right, you say there's no counterplay for Twitch and if you're weaker than him late its a bit of a stat check but he's an immobile sieger. Often this design is the worst when it's applied to someone who's actually mobile since you won't even have "CC them" as an option since most ccs are skillshots and mobility makes skillshots weaker.

Honestly I'd love if Twitch's powercurve looked like Lucian or Draven's, I can't pick this guy into hard matchups or games with strong assassins and I've mained him a couple years now. His power budget is mostly in attack speed and his R which are scaling abilities. Maybe if the passive was moved to E and he was given something as compensation I think a small rework could be justified for that purpose, but Riot is ok with making absurd early and shit late and the vice versa as champion designs.

I don't like hard counters or removing agency, but just because Twitch is above average one patch he gets called broken when there's has been and will be more problematic designs. He's entirely based on items right now which is ok to a point, but it means he has to be strong late and can't rely on base damage.

the weeabooJun 6, 20174 votes

Twitch? Twitch has NO counterplay?

http://www.gifimagesdownload.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/laughing-hysterically-gif-1245.gif

LMAO. You're telling me that an ADC with zero dashes, zero in-combat movement speed boosts, zero escape PERIOD, has no counterplay? His only self peel is a 25-45% slow.

An ADC that doesn't build any defensive stats or items, that doesn't even bother buying item 3812 item 3026 item 3071 , has no counter play?

https://m.popkey.co/346298/v0Eg5_s-200x150.gif?c=popkey-web&p=mars&i=3musketeers&l=search&f=.gif

Hello? item 2055 ? ASSASSINS?

Twitch is the SQUISHIEST adc in this entire game except for maybe KogMaw and gets popped like a fucking balloon the second he comes out of stealth. You have to be kidding me right?

Also you are comparing Twitch to FACELESS VOID. LOL. Last time I checked, Twitch didn't have a 5 second team-wide stun, a dash, an Ekko ultimate on his Q, or stun on his autos. BAHHAHHA.

http://cdn.smosh.com/sites/default/files/ftpuploads/bloguploads/laughing-gifs-jonah-jameson.gif

Talking about no counter play when Fizz Tryndamere MasterYi still around in their state?

You crack me up dude.

Or maybe you could just let someone on your team actually play Yasuo so one W just blocks his entire ult

AhristocatsJun 6, 20173 votes

{quoted}

LMAO. You're telling me that an ADC with zero dashes, zero in-combat movement speed boosts, zero escape PERIOD, has no counterplay? His only self peel is a 25-45% slow.

and how does this make you able to dodge his damages===========? of fucking course twitch has no dash when he has a stealth and 830 range

the weeabooJun 6, 20172 votes

The point is that he has no way to escape once he comes out of stealth so just have the assassin blow him the fuck up in 0.4 seconds and then he can't do damage to anyone.

Kassadin Zed Ahri Fizz are all fine, meta choices with more than enough mobility to close the gap and kill him instantly.

AhristocatsJun 7, 20174 votes

ok so now counterpicking is counterplay

got it

the weeabooJun 7, 20173 votes

Literally anyone with mobility/long range and a bit of burst can do the job.

Ahri Akali Anivia Annie Azir Blitzcrank Caitlyn Camille Diana Draven Ekko Elise Evelynn Ezreal Fiora Fizz Gangplank Graves Hecarim Irelia JarvanIV Jax Jayce Jhin Jinx Kalista Karma Kassadin Katarina Kennen Khazix KogMaw Khazix Leblanc LeeSin Lissandra Lucian MasterYi MissFortune Nasus Nidalee Nocturne Orianna Pantheon Quinn Quinn Renekton Rengar Riven Ryze Shaco Sivir Sona Syndra Talon Tryndamere TwistedFate Veigar Velkoz Viktor Xerath XinZhao Yasuo Zed Ziggs

you'd be hard pressed to not find at least one of these champs in your comp.

notice me Sin piJun 7, 20173 votes

why are Nasus Annie Orianna in the list? i can understand Veigar 's E making enemy twitch's job difficult despite having short range and no mobility, but the 3 champions i just dont get

StoryDuckJun 6, 20173 votes

So how would you justify a late game scaling champion in an early/midgame meta? Are you saying that Twitch should be weak in late game? What would be the purpose of him then? How would you change him? Why would those changes fix the problem and why will those change not dumpster twitch? Twitch is a very short range ADC that has one of the hardest times getting out of laning phase. He has no escape save his stealth (which is easily countered by being close to him). Twtich can only make one strong play and that revolves around the timing of his ultimate. You want counterplay? Keep track of his ultimate and when a teamfight starts be prepared to disengage at first then try to reengage after his ult is down. I know that is harder to do then it sounds but it is doable. It becomes much harder when a team is designed around a protect the twitch composition as Lulu, Orianna, and Karma all give MS boosts with their shields. This is why team coordination is so important as you can do crazy combinations like that to win games.

Tobias BracknerJun 6, 20171 votes

TWITCH HAS NO COUNTER PLAY?

HE HAS NO ESCAPE MOVES

RUN UP TO THE RAT AND SQUISH HIM

AhristocatsJun 6, 201710 votes

except that he's miles away from the fight, and by the time he appears your entire team lost 50% of their hp

Tobias BracknerJun 6, 20173 votes

MILES AWAY? YOU MEAN THE 6 SHOTS THAT HE GETS ON HIS ULT? THAT HE NEEDS THE ENTIRE ENEMY TEAM TO BE IN A CONVENIENT CONGA LINE TO GET OFF?

IF HE PULLS THAT OFF THEN YOU GUYS PLAYED YOURSELVES.

AhristocatsJun 6, 20179 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tobias Brackner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HKLEugdE,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2017-06-06T07:25:55.102+0000)

YOU MEAN THE 6 SHOTS THAT HE GETS ON HIS ULT?

6? dafuq? if twitch has 1.8 attack speed he will shoot 9 AA each one with 80% crit chance and 400 ad with his ult

[{quoted}](name=Tobias Brackner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HKLEugdE,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2017-06-06T07:25:55.102+0000)

THAT HE NEEDS THE ENTIRE ENEMY TEAM TO BE IN A CONVENIENT CONGA LINE TO GET OFF?

did you ever hear of runan?

[{quoted}](name=Tobias Brackner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HKLEugdE,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2017-06-06T07:25:55.102+0000)

IF HE PULLS THAT OFF THEN YOU GUYS PLAYED YOURSELVES.

that explains the 19% pick rate and 53.5% win rate

Subject 5Jun 6, 20171 votes

Lucian Caitlyn Usually end the game before Twitch even has a chance at doing anything. If you have (If you don't it's your teams fault, not the champions.) a champion on your team that can CC like Maokai Galio Gragas then those are all easy kills. You shouldn't be so bunched up together that the rat ends up killing you all in a pentakill and if you're off by your own then . . . well I mean. Let's be honest here, if Twitch is at end game and you're off by yourself- that's just- well. You just didn't use your noggin. Twitch will end up killing himself if he engages in a 5v1. But what if his team engages? Disengage and find out where he is, put wards down and retreat- force them to come to you. It's end game- towers are either made of paper or no more towers even exist.

There is so much to do against Twitch. Why not just Vayne R+Q and 2 shot him? She would heal the first AA all of the damage of Twitches first AA and instantly kill him on the first AA. The bigger issue is that Lucian is in every single damn game, I'm starting to feel like a racist because of it.

AhristocatsJun 6, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Subject 5,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HKLEugdE,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2017-06-06T11:39:55.833+0000)

Why not just R+Q and 2 shot him?

that's not counterplay, but counterpick

to answer to you it's because vayne needs 4 items to be relevant, twitch needs 2 items to be relevant, after 2 items his damage will impact a teamfight vayne has no AOE damage and her single target damage needs way more to be impactful

and then, if a twitch is dumb enough to be caught by a vayne instead of waiting that the teamfight starts to come from stealth to kill everyone then it's low elo not high elo and then, if he does what i said vayne cannot reach him with her range and frontline cc'ing her

Critmaster GarenJun 6, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Janna X RubicK,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HKLEugdE,comment-id=000c0000,timestamp=2017-06-06T12:31:35.159+0000)

that's not counterplay, but counterpick

its even worse. its basically saying counterplay him with a champion who has even less counterplay.