Let's congratulate the new ADC with the lowest winrate and a way forward

LaughingStapler··65 votes·6,598 views

Congratulations on that ~47% Kog'Maw! The mid winrate is even more impressive at ~45%. Considering he's a niche champion with an overall pick-rate of less than 2%, this is incredibly bad. Even the dedicated Kog'Maw fans like myself aren't excelling with him anymore.

I know people HATE these threads but every champion deserves to have an equal chance of success in the right circumstances. Right now, I don't think Kog is the best choice in any situation - even with a team built around him. It's a fact that this game is never 100% perfectly balanced but we should strive to get there instead of pretending it doesn't exist and is all about player skill/situation. That just isn't true.

Pretty much every part of his kit has been weakened early but without sufficient late game compensation. The gimmicky 2x AS isn't that attractive when you consider that Kog's AS growth has been reduced and W now has the following nerfs:

  • 1/3 of the old base damage (from 6% to 2%)! HUGE NERF ^^^increasing the on-hit % with ranks by .25% per level could help
  • 40 mana cost instead of 0 ^^^this matters a lot because it means you have to give up much more CS in lane or avoid certain trades to save mana + you can have situations where you're OOM after a few ults. and can no longer fight back
  • .75% AP scaling instead of 1% ^^^increasing the AP scaling would help an on-hit AP build immensely and give at least one viable path
  • duration reduced from 8 seconds to 6 (this one hurts for the on-hit builds)
  • longer CD if Kog builds CDR such as Nashor's or uses CDR runes ^^^old Kog W cd = 17 sec but starts upon activation so with 40% CDR it's 17-(17 x .4+8) = 2.2 sec ^^^new Kog W cd = 7 sec but starts after expiration so with 40% CDR it's 7-(7 x .4) = 4.2 sec
  • your auto attacks do only 55% damage
  • impossible to kite once you get a few AS items so it makes Kog more predictable and less able to outplay

Is all of this even worth the 2x AS? In my experience, it's a net nerf to W until perhaps very far into the game. Even then, the benefits aren't worth how much weaker you are in the early-mid game.

The ult. was tweaked heavily too but it's in fact a nerf and makes some strategies almost unviable. First of all, the base damage is worse unless they are at 1/3 HP. A Luden's + Rylai's + Liandry's build is definitely a lot weaker now but I'm not sure the alternatives are that much better either.

The biggest problem is that R no longer functions as an effective long-range poking tool since most of its damage is for targets below 50%. If you've got someone down that low, it usually means an engage has happened (at which point you're no longer playing a poke strategy). Thus, the playstyle with Kog has an intractable long-range artillery is pretty much dead. To have parity with old Kog's R damage, you'd need to build more AP and also land EQ. Both of those are fairly easy to dodge skillshots and doing so becomes even easier the farther you're aiming. Thus, Kog has to seriously expose himself to engages in order to actually land it vs a thinking player. Even with all that danger on a low mobility champion, you'd only have the damage old Kog did at 1800 range.

If that wasn't enough to kill Kog as a poke AP mid, they increased the mana cost to 50 and changed the refresh time from 6 seconds to 10. This is actually a huge problem because it makes it hard to reset your mana costs during a fight and also means you're far more vulnerable to engages if you've just poked a few times. Once you've got 3 stacks, you're basically useless as far as the ult. goes because of how high the mana costs become.

Kog is as vulnerable to CC, assassins and engages as ever but his tools have only gotten weaker. It makes me really sad as an AP Kog main. It feels as if my favorite champion just got deleted. His old poke playstyle is pretty bad now and on-hit isn't really great either for mid-lane. I've tried pretty much every build including the Rageblade and Gunblade styles. He had a unique identity and playstyle for multiple roles and now he is weak in all of them and more constrained to on-hit builds.

105 Comments

Shonjl12 votes

Its not surprising at all. Kog is a niche pick since the only way he works is entirely in a defend the Kogmaw comp. If you thought comps for Yasuo or Vayne were nuts, at least they are capable on their on to some extent. Kog along is literally a free target since he literally has nothing he can do really to stop you from killing him...short of him killing you which if he isn't fed, isn't happening. Sure this can be said to all ADCs but they can do stuff to usually escape. Ashe can constantly slow you and run away or ult you. Sivir can ult away. Vayne can knock you back/stun you and possibly kill you from it. Trist and Corki have extremely long jumps, with Trist also having a huge knockback. Graves and Lucy both have low CD dashes. What can Kog do? Use his small slow he has? That isn't as safe as all the others.

Any other ADC can be of some use as long as they get a little help in teamfights, while Kog literally needs all 4 players basically focus on protecting him if he wants to do anything.

Not to mention Kog doesn't really bring much to the table. He can't kite since most his damage comes from his W I believe(The huge AS boost) Which means he can't even move. And his ult is his poke, his other two abilities are basically ignored for the most part, a weak slow and the other I think breaks armor? He does more from just autoing from his W to even waste the time casting them. Every other ADC has some form of utility/global that makes them more useful than him.

Not saying he is garbage, a Kog that knows what he is doing and has the help he needs can devestate. But overall he is just probably the weakest ADC.

ofart3 votes

{quoted}

Its not surprising at all. Kog is a niche pick since the only way he works is entirely in a defend the Kogmaw comp. If you thought comps for Yasuo or Vayne were nuts, at least they are capable on their on to some extent. Kog along is literally a free target since he literally has nothing he can do really to stop you from killing him...short of him killing you which if he isn't fed, isn't happening. Sure this can be said to all ADCs but they can do stuff to usually escape. Ashe can constantly slow you and run away or ult you. Sivir can ult away. Vayne can knock you back/stun you and possibly kill you from it. Trist and Corki have extremely long jumps, with Trist also having a huge knockback. Graves and Lucy both have low CD dashes. What can Kog do? Use his small slow he has? That isn't as safe as all the others.

Any other ADC can be of some use as long as they get a little help in teamfights, while Kog literally needs all 4 players basically focus on protecting him if he wants to do anything.

Not to mention Kog doesn't really bring much to the table. He can't kite since most his damage comes from his W I believe(The huge AS boost) Which means he can't even move. And his ult is his poke, his other two abilities are basically ignored for the most part, a weak slow and the other I think breaks armor? He does more from just autoing from his W to even waste the time casting them. Every other ADC has some form of utility/global that makes them more useful than him.

Not saying he is garbage, a Kog that knows what he is doing and has the help he needs can devestate. But overall he is just probably the weakest ADC.

I don't think he even works that great in a comp build for him. He has only 6 seconds to do damage and is then useless for 7 seconds (which is a lot in an actual fight). You also can't waste W because then your team can get engaged on or you'll just burn through your mana. The way Kog's damage output works is very unforgiving and he depends on perfect positioning. W is also very telegraphed when you activate W so they can just retreat. I'd rather have a fed Jinx or Twitch for AoE teamfighting. They can do basically the same damage as Kog'Maw in a teamfight but with far more safety and the addition of other perks like Jinx's execute, her CC, Twitch's stealth etc.

The Bíg Ticket9 votes

Jax top has a 47% winrate too...yet people seem to think he is broken.

Ahristocats4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Buff Jax please,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yAOq9HeA,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2015-12-17T14:42:16.952+0000)

Jax top has a 47% winrate too...yet people seem to think he is broken.

shut up, the community is always right !

The Bíg Ticket6 votes

Yes. Lux needed buffs.

NegusInParis3 votes

YOU GET A BUFF, YOU GET A BUFF, YOU GEETT AA BB.. Oh Kog'maw you get a nerf :D

Ariel the Cruel3 votes

Better nerf Sona.

FantasySniper3 votes

No, please don't spread that meme.

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

Just by acknowledging it as a "meme", you already concede that it is wide spread.

So...... Too late?

FantasySniper1 votes

It hasn't left these circle-jerking boards - yet. Just using it inflates their massive disillusioned egos even more.

Funny thing is that they don't acknowledge it as a meme even though it plainly is.

Axis the Dragon2 votes

The difference, though, is that Jax has a 6.75% play rate in top (9th highest of 55) and 5.22% in the jungle (13th highest of 46)

Kog ADC, on the other hand, is played only 1.31% of times (and still sits at 17/19)

His win rate spikes at the 35-40 minute mark to 49.95%, and actually drops to 47.21% the longer the game goes. His winrate also drops the more games are played on him... Meaning that overall, something is seriously wrong with ADC Kog

Kog Mid sits at an even rarer 0.22% Pick Rate (47/48 of Mid Champions). It's kind of sad. You'd think a Champion with a very dedicated playerbase would do better than a below average 46.56% winrate (although winrate does spike to 77%+in the 50-125 games played segment, dropping to a still super strong 67.76% winrate at 125+, which is a testament to AP Kog's viability, at least).

The Bíg Ticket2 votes

I know that Kog Maw is bad atm...was just making a sarcastic comment about how people's double standards in the winrate argument.

ShatoSummoner1 votes

Who says that? Jax is just annoying to play against because he's a bully, so people will always say that. They do the same thing with riven and yasuo even when they have low win rates. Jax is just a very annoying champion to play against so people complain. The only time I ever heard anyone complain about Kog'Maw was BEFORE his rework in ARAM.

Khâmul8 votes

47% , 50%. same shit. you could say he is really bad if he was at 30%... but for 3%.... dude. you can't have 50% on all champions.

LaughingStapler35 votes

{quoted}

47% , 50%. same shit. you could say he is really bad if he was at 30%... but for 3%.... dude. you can't have 50% on all champions.

In the context of the game's winrates, 3% is actually significant. Most champions get nerfed or become concerns for Riot when they get over 54% and have a decent playrate. Kog's case is actually worse since it's artificially inflated to 47% due to his low playrate. That means he's chosen less as a generalist pick and more because he fits the situation. A champion chosen for favorable matchups and comps. SHOULD actually do better than 50%. Likewise, champions with such low playrates are usually picked by more experienced players.

This is why in the past Vayne could be broken with just a 52% winrate. The fact that the playrate was nearly 40% meant that she was doing well even in the hands of many inexperienced players and in bad comps./matchups.

Sire Hippington2 votes

That means he's chosen less as a generalist pick and more because he fits the situation. A champion chosen for favorable matchups and comps. SHOULD actually do better than 50%. Likewise

for soloQ, that only is true if it is about lanematchups or as counter to specific teamcomps. Kog however requires a certain setup within his team, which needs to be executed right, it's not to just pick him into it, the entire team has to play around it. This makes it hard for him to preform great in soloQ.

In coordinated 5v5, his winrate should be better, as your argument holds true here.

Rebonack3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Pavoni,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yAOq9HeA,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2015-12-17T20:48:07.831+0000)

for soloQ, that only is true if it is about lanematchups or as counter to specific teamcomps. Kog however requires a certain setup within his team, which needs to be executed right, it's not to just pick him into it, the entire team has to play around it. This makes it hard for him to preform great in soloQ.

In coordinated 5v5, his winrate should be better, as your argument holds true here.

Riot has stated over and over again that they balance primarily around Plat/Diamond level Solo.

What happens in LCS or 5s is irrelevant barring extreme outliers.

And no one has yet answered the question 'how do you make building a team around Koggy more attractive in some situations than building a team around Miss Fortune without absolutely breaking Kog?'

D rok6 votes

He's still right though... meta swings change winrate more than 3%... You can't constantly have a perfect balance of 50% across the board, even if you DO consider 3% a big deal. You said it yourself, he's a niche pick, and a lot of people probably play him without knowing that. That contributes to his win rate.

Also, keep in mind, there are a LOT of balance functions occurring right now. there's no point in micro-managing winrates of 47% before you get a reasonable foundational balance. Masteries, vision issues, item changes, meta shifts - they all contribute to his winrate.

Frankly, I think given the situation of preseason at the moment, 47% is a solid place to be in after a moderate rework.

TotalJerk2 votes

You have to keep in mind there are 9 other champions in every game and who they are has influence on the outcome as well.

Rebonack3 votes

{quoted}

You have to keep in mind there are 9 other champions in every game and who they are has influence on the outcome as well.

Fun fact: every single other ADC has an advantageous lane matchup against Kog right now. He just loses less pathetically against some.

Earl Eulrich8 votes

just get supported from an actual good janna player and koggy is still a goddamn monster. His winrate isn´t upposed to be great outside of premade-games, he relies on his team to enable him.

GhastlyGhoulMan5 votes

#KogLivesMatter

NegusInParis5 votes

VoidLivesMatter

MrSexyHobo1 votes

kog maw has fingernails even before he is out of the void

NegusInParis5 votes

MERRY CHRISTMAS KOG'MAW HERE'S A BAD KIT AND LOW WIN RATE

Rebonack3 votes

{quoted}

MERRY CHRISTMAS KOG'MAW HERE'S A BAD KIT AND LOW WIN RATE

ReindeerKogMaw sad singing

Melee Form4 votes

Kog is really bad now. I feel like the reason for most of these changes was to drive kog out of competitive. Kog was great in competitive because he could kite and get sped up by lulu to do ton's of poke/damage. Now that he's picked up rageblade instead of trinity force he's slow. He also has to stand still to use his w so he's immobile. GG Kog'maw.

TotalJerk2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Melee Form,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yAOq9HeA,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-12-17T10:48:33.794+0000)

feel like the reason for most of these changes was to drive kog out of competitive.

I doubt it. I bet the current Kog could be just as good in competitive. Where the rework really fucks him is soloQ. Kog'Maw has an interesting situation where he isn't competitively viable by himself, but becomes extremely good with a comp and game plan that revolves around him.

Rebonack3 votes

{quoted}

I doubt it. I bet the current Kog could be just as good in competitive. Where the rework really fucks him is soloQ. Kog'Maw has an interesting situation where he isn't competitively viable by himself, but becomes extremely good when a comp is built around him.

Except Miss Fortune has that trait as well.

Only difference is, she does it from a safer distance, over less time, with less team coordination required, to the whole enemy team, with a strong fallback pattern when her Ult is on cooldown, and without a crippling early game.

My Waifu Vanilla2 votes

Not sure why the downvotes since it is 100% true. MF is definitely a much more reliable "protect the ADC and you win the game champion" since her damage when peeled for is much more potent than Kog's since it is almost ALL AoE and synergizes much better with more team comps than Kog. Combined with the fact her AS steroid is basically just as good as Kog's but doesn't make her autos hit like tissue paper she can afford to grab A LOT of high AD items and benefit from all of the great scalings that are in her kit and just melt through teams with the buffed ultimate or love tap/Q her way through targets if it happens to get interrupted.

Dalanin4 votes

Old kog was fun to play, it wasn't oppresive nor op.

I really don't know why they had to ruin this for us.

IAMS4T4N4 votes

I personally think "protect the jinx/vayne/trist" work much better than protect the kog considering they all have some sort of alternative if their janna/lulu is dead and/or has their shit on cd theyre also a lot safer and their early games arent as horrid as kogs a tiny buff to kog wouldnt hurt, because we all love that little puppy <3

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

I personally think "protect the jinx/vayne/trist" work much better than protect the kog considering they all have some sort of alternative if their janna/lulu is dead and/or has their shit on cd theyre also a lot safer and their early games arent as horrid as kogs a tiny buff to kog wouldnt hurt, because we all love that little puppy <3

How often do you find yourself at champion select and think, 'Man, what this team really needs is a champion with no early game presence and no fallback in case things go poorly.'

etymeloD3 votes

I rarely if ever post. Kog has been my favorite champ mainly mid and then adc when I need to play it. He feels like a completely different champ and I'm quite saddened by his rework... I mean just change his ultimate back... the rest I could care less...

Ch0c0lateJesus2 votes

Good luck getting any reply from Riot on this. Unless the champ falls into a certain catagory, or has a certain amount of popularity, they dont give a shit. This is another case of giving a champ an unwelcome rework, and then ignoring everyone that didnt like it(everyone in this case)

Good luck getting sympathy from anyone else for that matter. There will be the typical circle jerk of Riot brown nosers that rationalise every dumb thing they do. Unless it's something they like being changed, in which case they cry louder than anyone else.

Kog's rework was just bad. They stripped him of everything in favor of making him a one button champ. If your W is not up, you're not a carry, simple as that.

WarlockLaw1 votes

Kog'Maw as a marksman is a late game oriented champion that requires team coordination to pull off perfectly. 'Protect the Kog' is named after him for a reason. These changes solidified him in this fashion at the cost of his ap/poke play style which as far as I'm considered is good for the health of the game (imo poke meta is boring and oppressive). The reason why his damage (ad ratio to autos) is lowered for his buff is because he would be unbelievably broken without the damage reduction. Five attacks a second is enough to shred through anything without some sort of drawback.

Now let's look at the meta in a word: early. It's all about the early snowball. Towers are paper mache, and make your minions push harder for being destroyed. Additionally tanks are, for the most part, not picked over more damaging champions. How many champions in your last game built no offensive stats? How many of them weren't supports?

Most late game champions have suffered as of late. Until the meta shifts to a more favorable environment for koggles I think any and all changes to him should be held off, I think he is plenty strong with his on hit build it's just bad vs comps that end a game in 25 minutes

Rebonack4 votes

{quoted}

Kog'Maw as a marksman is a late game oriented champion that requires team coordination to pull off perfectly. 'Protect the Kog' is named after him for a reason.

Why would you want to build a team around Koggy when you can build a team around Miss Fortune instead?

Not only is her early game significantly better, but her Ult effectively gives her twenty Koggy auto-attacks over the span of 3 seconds to the whole enemy team. And she doesn't need to invest in a lick of attack speed to pull it off.

WarlockLaw1 votes

70 minutes into the game kog will be doing far more damage than mf. Kog is a hyper carry mf isn't. Mf fits better into a mid game focused teamfight womb than a peel for comp

Rebonack2 votes

{quoted}

70 minutes into the game kog will be doing far more damage than mf. Kog is a hyper carry mf isn't. Mf fits better into a mid game focused teamfight womb than a peel for comp

Guess what, boys and girls?

It's time for math!

YAY MATH!

We'll assume here that Koggy isn't pants-on-head retarded and knows how to actually optimize his damage and buys item 3124 item 3115 item 3091 item 3135 item 3006 item 3089. Currently the highest DPS build Kog can get right now due to the loss of AD scaling on his W. That comes out to 88 physical damage, 180 flat magic damage, and 5% max HP.

We'll assume here the target is a bit on the soft side of things with 2k HP and 100 of each resist, so that's another 100 damage from the %HP for a total of 280 OnHit magic damage.

Armor reduces the 88 down to 44. Wit's grinds 100 MR down to 75. Voidstaff nerfs 75 down to 49. Fourth nine magic resist reduces 280 magic damage to about 185. That gives us a total of 229 damage per hit. Over three seconds, then, we're looking at 3435 damage to a single target.

Neat!

Now it's MF turn. Her Ult deals 1200% of her total AD over three seconds to the whole enemy team assuming your team set up for you (which they did, since we're assuming a team has been built around her). For the sake of argument, we'll assume here she went AD crazy and snagged Yomama's Ghostblade rather than the usual Firecannon. With armor (and armor shred) taken into account, MF is hitting the whole enemy team for 3450 damage. Or in other words, for the duration of her Ult MF can do comparable DPS to end-game Koggy to the whole enemy team.

Neat!

Once MF's Ult is over she does much less damage. But she has softened up the enemy team considerably and she can follow up with Qs and her attack speed boost.

Once's Koggy's W is over he can snipe with his Ult or move into 500 attack range to proc his Innate.

So please, don't tell me Kog deals more damage. In ideal use, their damage is pretty darn similar. Except MF's is from a safer distance and over a huge area. And in their fallback pattern MF is massively more useful than Kog.

WarlockLaw1 votes

If you have an on hit build that doesn't include runnan's you are 'pants on head retarded'. Up all those on hits to three targets and add in botrk, make the targets tankier while you're at it, and add in the proper runes to make his attack speed 5.0 and suddenly he'll be killing tanky teams faster than mf could hope to.

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

If you have an on hit build that doesn't include runnan's you are 'pants on head retarded'. Up all those on hits to three targets and add in botrk, make the targets tankier while you're at it, and add in the proper runes to make his attack speed 5.0 and suddenly he'll be killing tanky teams faster than mf could hope to.

Hurricane is a trap-item on Kog. He doesn't have the AD needed to take advantage of it and better than 50% of his damage is magic. The only way you'll hit more than one person is if the enemy team is humping each others legs and standing still.

You know who else does really well against an enemy team stupid enough to cluster up like that?

MissFortune

ofart1 votes

{quoted}

Kog'Maw as a marksman is a late game oriented champion that requires team coordination to pull off perfectly. 'Protect the Kog' is named after him for a reason. These changes solidified him in this fashion at the cost of his ap/poke play style which as far as I'm considered is good for the health of the game (imo poke meta is boring and oppressive). The reason why his damage (ad ratio to autos) is lowered for his buff is because he would be unbelievably broken without the damage reduction. Five attacks a second is enough to shred through anything without some sort of drawback.

Now let's look at the meta in a word: early. It's all about the early snowball. Towers are paper mache, and make your minions push harder for being destroyed. Additionally tanks are, for the most part, not picked over more damaging champions. How many champions in your last game built no offensive stats? How many of them weren't supports?

Most late game champions have suffered as of late. Until the meta shifts to a more favorable environment for koggles I think any and all changes to him should be held off, I think he is plenty strong with his on hit build it's just bad vs comps that end a game in 25 minutes

Poke is just another play pattern with its own weaknesses (split-pushing, engage, etc.). Just because you don't enjoy it doesn't mean the game's already limited strategies should be further restricted Having the ult. do meaningless damage until <50% HP and also increasing costs kills one of Kog's preferred styles mid without offering an equally strong alternative (relative to old AP Kog which was also not dominant mid by any stretch). Ideally, there is no "poke" meta or "engage" meta but rather a myriad of equally viable strategies.

It's true that games snowball harder and end quicker this season but Kog is not the late game monster you suggest. Statistically, he actually performs worse in the deep late game. That's the issue here. No one's complaining just about his early game being weaker than ever. His long ramp-up time is typical of a hyper-carry power curve. The problem is that he doesn't bring enough to the table later to justify the sacrifices your team is forced to make.

The fact that games don't last long enough is also an issue but not my primary concern. Although, one should consider that having a champion which comes into force at 50 minute is pretty useless regardless of how strong he is at that point just because it's almost impossible to get there. A hypercarry still has to have a realistic chance to get to that dream scenario when playing properly or they would still be unviable.

Neither his AP (which is weakest even though Riot promised to preserve it) or AD versions are strong enough when Kog is supposed to shine. A hypercarry is supposed to make concessions early and mid game for a clearly superior influence later on. Jinx, Vayne, MF, Twitch, Tristana etc. can all carry just as hard while having either more safety, more CC or other additional tools. Kog is just damage and even that isn't so overwhelming to make up for what you lose. He is also gated by cooldowns and mana to be effective while the others aren't as much. He has 6 seconds to be useful and then becomes almost completely useless for another 7 seconds. That means you basically kill one person in the best case scenario and then your contribution to the fight is both much less safe and also far less in damage. A Tristana, Vayne, Jinx etc. can maintain extremely high damage throughout the entire fight and their crit. scaling at full build feels on par to Kog's conditional 6 second W damage. The new AP Kog suffers from mostly the same issue. His early was weakened but his late game is significantly weaker and less safe than old AP Kog's.

WarlockLaw1 votes

Look I don't think poke comps should be allowed to be viable until riot adds some sort of item/mechanic/mastery/whatever that takes advantage of their play pattern, maybe an alternative to locket that gives a lot of out of combat regen to your team so they don't have to back after each nid spear.

As for buffing him, the only reason why I believe they shouldn't is because they will over buff him.if games are over consistently before a champion can hit their stride properly they won't be viable unless they are blatantly overpowered. If we buff Kog to have a 48-52% winrate in this meta he'll be the only adc when we get back to late game (or even mid game) meta.

ofart1 votes

{quoted}

Look I don't think poke comps should be allowed to be viable until riot adds some sort of item/mechanic/mastery/whatever that takes advantage of their play pattern, maybe an alternative to locket that gives a lot of out of combat regen to your team so they don't have to back after each nid spear.

As for buffing him, the only reason why I believe they shouldn't is because they will over buff him.if games are over consistently before a champion can hit their stride properly they won't be viable unless they are blatantly overpowered. If we buff Kog to have a 48-52% winrate in this meta he'll be the only adc when we get back to late game (or even mid game) meta.

Runaan's is probably a good choice for an on-hit build but incredibly awkward at the same time. It provides crit. on what is mostly a magic damage and magic penetration build with almost no AD. Moreover, it doesn't really grant you much more damage UNLESS you hit multiple targets and that's often not easy. If you consider that crit. isn't too relevant on modern Kog builds which have low AD and no IE, the new Runaan's is actually worse on him because they lowered the AS a lot. Runaan's now is much more attractive on champions like Twitch who build crit., buy LW and do mostly physical damage. The synergy with Kog isn't that high.

There are plenty of answers to poke comps. and that's why they're rarely even played in competitive. They're insanely fragile and hard to execute properly. If you fall behind you're toast and they get murdered by engages (especially vs AoE teams). They also tend to rely on grouping and can get unhinged by split-pushing strategies. Riot has provided more than enough items and strategies to deal with them. Righteous Glory, Zzz Portal, Elixir of Ruin, Gunblade, Will of the Ancients, Soraka, Talisman of Ascension... and the list could go on for ages.

The logic you provide for not buffing Kog is just ridiculous to me. It's basically saying "I think they'll mess up so let's leave him in a weak state with a constrained build path and reduced role diversity." Moreover, balance isn't done once and then left that way forever. The game is constantly re-evaluated and adjusted based on items and dominant strategies. Obviously, if they bring him to a better state now (and keep in mind his winrate is inflated due to his low pick-rate), that doesn't mean he won't be looked at later if the game state is different. This happens every season and whenever new items are introduced. The argument is lazy thinking and not fair to Kog fans.

WarlockLaw1 votes

It's not that I think that they will mess it up, it that I think kog is already strong in his niche it's just that his niche isn't allowed for. If the buff him now he will be extremely overpowered when that niche becomes a relevant comp to play. Veigar is also weak now should we buff him too?

Also with runaan's I don't understand why they put crit synergies. It still gives the on hit to multi target at full damage and his attack speed applying on hits to potentially 3 targets is great.

ofart1 votes

{quoted}

It's not that I think that they will mess it up, it that I think kog is already strong in his niche it's just that his niche isn't allowed for. If the buff him now he will be extremely overpowered when that niche becomes a relevant comp to play. Veigar is also weak now should we buff him too?

Also with runaan's I don't understand why they put crit synergies. It still gives the on hit to multi target at full damage and his attack speed applying on hits to potentially 3 targets is great.

The problem is, I think he's barely stronger if at all even when you do have a good team comp and get to 40+ minutes. Compare the winrates of Twitch or Vayne and other strong late game ADs. They're almost 10% higher by that point. Even just from personal experience, Kog's too clunky late game and doesn't offer enough sustained DPS (due to his W lasting only 6 sec. and then going on CD for 7) while also not having amazing burst like Graves. it's an awkward middle ground that seems best suited to catching someone out rather than teamfighting but also isn't built to excel at that. He is best in 3v3 battles and gets worse from there.

It's not just that his winrate is bad despite having such a low pick rate. It's that he doesn't fulfill his late game promise. Even if he does more damage during that 6 second window, that's not enough to be a better late game ADC. Other ADCs may bring CC, utility, better AoE, stronger poke, more chase/escape potential etc. Draven theoretically does the most damage of any ADC if you catch axes but that doesn't mean he's considered to be the best late game ADC.

Mid Kog is much the same. I feel like I suffer a lot with less reward than I deserve. It's basically a free lane for the first 20 minutes but I don't suddenly turn into a poking beast like before. I am still very vulnerable when using W, my ult. sucks for poke, my skills are decent damage but not amazing etc. He is not fulfilling his late game fantasy for either role EVEN IF YOU GET THERE. That's the crux of it. His worse than ever early and bad winrate are secondary to this.

Haselnussstrauch1 votes

poke should not be allowed ?!? poke champions are based on skill shots that can be missed or dogded, so movement speed helps a lot vs poke and since poke champions usually have low mobility hard engade is the key to counter them... imo there is much counterplay to poke... what is then the counterplay to a rengar that oneshots you, buy zhonias on adc ?...

Haselnussstrauch1 votes

i dont understand the rework in the first place he was a allround good champion imo with unique identity and different playstyles (ap caster poke mid koggles or the standart ad kog ... ) so ples rito just give us the old kog back we all loved :c

Rebonack2 votes

{quoted}

i dont understand the rework in the first place he was a allround good champion imo with unique identity and different playstyles (ap caster poke mid koggles or the standart ad kog ... ) so ples rito just give us the old kog back we all loved :c

They won't give us the old Kog back. The double attack speed thing is here to stay. Riot wanted to push Kog away from being another poke-focused ADC and center more on his W, hence the Ult becoming and execute.

He's never going to work as a glass cannon hyper-carry, either. Kog just can't compete with Vayne, Jinx, Trist, and Twitch. Riot should just buckle down, improve his base damages again, and let him roll as either a poke Make (much higher, flat AP ratio on the Ult) or a ranged Juggernaut of sorts. They want an immobile tripod gun champion? They've got one.

Haselnussstrauch1 votes

{quoted}

They won't give us the old Kog back. The double attack speed thing is here to stay. Riot wanted to push Kog away from being another poke-focused ADC and center more on his W, hence the Ult becoming and execute.

He's never going to work as a glass cannon hyper-carry, either. Kog just can't compete with Vayne, Jinx, Trist, and Twitch. Riot should just buckle down, improve his base damages again, and let him roll as either a poke Make (much higher, flat AP ratio on the Ult) or a ranged Juggernaut of sorts. They want an immobile tripod gun champion? They've got one.

here are some ideas to make ap kog viable : http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/de/c/gameplay-balance/roE78zga-idea-to-help-ap-kog-maw

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