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The Real Problem with "Dynamic Ques" Isn't Matchmaking Imbalance

LaughingStapler··136 votes·7,845 views

While I doubt the matchmaking for Solo players will allow climbing opportunity equal to a 4-man premade, the main issue for me is that this new system would be a poor indicator of skill. At the very least, it would be quite ambiguous regarding its significance. A fairly weak player can just communicate well with his 4 other friends on Skype and climb while being quite subpar. On the other hand, if this same player is placed in a different group where this isn't possible, he may be several tiers worse. Likewise, a group of players might just develop some sort of cheese strategy (a creative level 1 invade etc.) that they just repeat over and over to climb. Essentially, it's much easier to get carried or simply to develop some formulaic strategy that you can get the whole team to follow. Thus, one could easily climb without being able to adapt well to changing game circumstances or even being decent in one's favorite roles.

Solo Que requires being able to work together with many different kinds of people and in several roles. Moreover, it requires constant adaptation since you don't get to develop some grand strategy before the game or communicate in great depth. Every game is different and you generally need to be pretty proficient in your role to climb consistently. This usually means above average mechanics for the champions played and good understanding of matchups.

These styles and the abilities a high ranking requires in each are quite different. One's ranking in the new system no longer assumes certain skills based on various ranking tiers. It cheapens the meaning of a higher ranking because it can mean too many things. Let's say that one has a geography and history class but they are graded together. What would a grade of B mean? It could be a student with an A in history and C in geography or vice versa. Perhaps it is a student with a B understanding of each subject. You just don't know. That's why subjects aren't graded together. The measurement would no longer make sense as an indicator of understanding.

100 Comments

48983507DEL146 votes

I agree, these multi-man premade teams need to go. They already have a Ranked 5v5 matchmaking, why do they need bring it in to Solo Q?

WookieJesuz3 votes

Would you be opposed to having solo-que separated from duo-tri-quad and all that separated from 5 man?

Sammystorm4 votes

No that would be fine and would have made logical sense.

Aku no Momiji4 votes

I agree with this idea, except for the quad bit; they could only pull a fifth person to fill out a quad from solo, so it's unpossible to separate.

So we'd have soloQ, 2/3 person Dynamic Q, and Ranked 5s.

Then, Dynamic Q for normals (admittedly, Dynamic Queue, clubs, and parties sounds awesome when not applied to the Ranked ladder. The new systems sound awesome and I am super psyched for S6 apart from Dynamic ranked.)

DrCyanide16 votes

5v5 Teams are currently fairly strict. You have to add people to the team, and can only be on so many teams (two? Not certain right off). You can't substitute in players if they're already on enough different teams, or if the team captain is offline. This vastly limits the number of people who can actually play 5v5 Teams right now.

Then you've got people who can't find all five required members but want to play with their friends competitively. The current solution is to play Normals against people trying out whatever new thing, which doesn't cut it.

As for the OP's post on skill not being represented, how's that different from live? Many people have a main that they climb with, but are significantly worse when not on that champion. Should they have a separate rank for that champion? Many people have a certain role that they're best at, but are significantly worse at other roles. Should we have separate ranks per role? The point is that we're already assigning too much emphasis on rank when in reality there was a very specific set of situations that got us to that rank. Is it really all that different if the specifics were a cheese strategy vs spamming a certain champion?

TL;DR: Rank already is an aggregate, only partially accurate indication of skill. This change only allows for more ways to show skill, but it doesn't improve or diminish the accuracy of the Ranked indicator.

Vistha Kai2 votes

5v5 is indeed strict, but why not fix the problem instead of fucking over a system that is, despite all the criticism, the closes to perfection we can get?

The thing we got is a hulking chimera without an actual thought behind it.

It doesn't change the accuracy of the ranked? Did you even read the OP's post?

A solo player is judged by the same measures as a group of five.

Imagine a situation like that in sports, say soccer, on one side is a group of 11 random dudes taken from the street and on the other 11 guys who've been playing with each other for years (Equivalent of being able to communicate using voice-chat program). Then after the match the Random team gets beaten because they lost to the Buddies-For-Life team.

Really can't see a problem with that?

venomous frost32 votes

want to climb? Malphite jungle Orianna mid Yasuo top Thresh Kalista bot, and never lose a single teamfight as 5 man premade

Mazohist7 votes

cause gathering 5 people skilled enough at those champions at the same time is so easy

FastAsHeck5 votes

The only really hard champion in that list is Yasuo and his difficulty is halved when you have a comp like this

EDIT: oh yes I forgot that here on the NA boards we insist Yasuo is an easy champion. My bad. I suppose the downvotes are justified.

BetaDude4019 votes

Orianna Orianna Orianna Orianna Orianna Orianna Orianna

LeeDark4 votes

Nah, all Ori has to do in the comp is ball the Malph and press R.

Ratbert16 votes

Still harder than yasuo, who just mashes his r until malph ults so that he blinks in.

LeeDark2 votes

Yeah, but in that comp, Yasuo is top lane, which has a lot more bad matchups for him, so his lane is harder to win, and a Yasuo who doesn't do well in lane doesn't really do much in fights, either. Ori doesn't have to win lane at all to be useful in the comp.

Ratbert5 votes

Yes, but then malph would have an equally hard time as a tank jungler with horrid ganks until 6, and ori doesn't have many popular champs she's good against anymore either. Ori can't exactly lose lane or you'll have a 5/0 unstoppable nuker/assassin on the enemy team.

I don't think it's possible to do poorly if you extend a knockup by ~1 second for free and be able to block projectiles. That's already quite a bit of utility there.

layrit22 votes

Considering that League of Legends is a TEAM GAME, the team coordination, creation of efficient strategies and communication are THE skills that should be encouraged and evaluated. The mechanical skills are secondary.

Even tho adaptation IS a very important skill its redundancy in the current system means that overall you are just playing roulette. You can't adapt to everything that is happening during the course of 1 game.

ChargeItDownMid7 votes

[deleted]

DrCyanide4 votes

A person's rank is also cheapened when they spam the same champion over and over, or when they can only play one role. I'm at the verge of Gold, and got there by spamming Xerath Mid. Would you think me a Gold level Jungler when I cross that threshold, just because I got a Gold border? Or would my rank be deceptive of my actual skill?

If you actually want Ranked to represent your individual skill, the entire system needs to be completely scraped. You need rank by role, by champion, and by queuing with others. Nothing short of that will come close to being an indicator of skill.

Ratbert6 votes

It represents the sum of your skills of all the champs you played that season, because lp change is independent of champion selection. If you are fortunate enough to consistently get your preferred role, then it represents your skill level of that champ.

It's still a better alternative to just lumping premade and solo queue scores.

Battlecast Sona3 votes

how? there's no such thing as solo queue anyway, so I'm really confused what this backlash is about. In order for the system to work they'd need to abolish duo queueing, and since the community doesn't want that, dynamic queues is their response (because it allows you to actually put two duos together instead of getting a random, new duo every game). I don't really see the problem with it, especially since it will retain tier restrictions (meaning people you queue with will have to be close to your ranking). Add this together with the fact that queueing with other people artificially inflates your MMR (Meaning you play against players with a higher average skill than your group), and you have a system that is still balanced around you having a group because, as a punishment for having a group of people, you play against higher ranked players.

Ratbert1 votes

The solution to solo-duo queue is probably not solo-anything goes queue.

Yes, if you queue with a higher rank player, you'll face higher ranks, but on the other hand, your partner will face lower ranks, which balances that con with a pro of equal value.

Battlecast Sona1 votes

No they won't.

It averages your entire group's MMR and then inflates it, meaning you AND your partner will be playing against higher skill opponents.

Before you wanna complain and post on things, learn how the system you're complaining about works.

Ratbert2 votes

95% sure that even when inflated, the higher player can still be higher tier than everyone else, since it's a common sight in my games.

Being in a group makes it worse. If you have 4 players that are say, silver 5, and they duo with a gold 1, will they face plats?

Where does it say the inflated mmr is always higher than the partner's? I cannot find where it says that.

Weissritter13 votes

Thats a super one dimensional way of looking at it. Why are people not allowed to be ranked better just because they have good strats but may not be as mechanically good (but not necessarily bad)?

League is still a team game so thats kind of important; besides team coordination and plays are kind of a good thing anyway. Bad players will still probably have a hard time climbing if theyre dead weight, anyway. If both sides are coordinated, the side that is more skilled still wins. You all seem so worked up about people being in groups or carried in a group that you forget high level players can do the same to greater effect.

Besides, im tired of yolo queue and prefer/consider team play more relevant and enjoyable anyhow (theres a reason i have barely played this year). That and if both ranked queue and competitive become team focused the metagames go closer together and as a result chamos may get easier to balance if the metas arent so vastly different anymore lol (but thats just a hope i doubt its true).

LeeDark10 votes

Solo queue is still a team game, even if you aren't with a group, so that is a dumb argument. The issue here is the unfair advantage groups have compared to solo players. Your solo MMR will be WORSE than the solo MMR ratings of people who only play in a group of 5, yet the system will still be comparing your SOLO MMR against what is essentially their GROUP MMR. Right now, those two things exist in different queues, so there is no comparison.

By invalidating the relative accuracy of MMR, Riot invalidates the ENTIRE queue. I can easily say I deserve to be higher because I only play solo, and I can say ANYBODY playing with a group is getting carried. And I wouldn't be wrong in the new system. Especially since they remove the matchmaking penalty for being in a group.

If you want team play, that's fine. Really. The thing is, there already exists a place for that in League. After these changes, there will be nothing for solo players.

Weissritter5 votes

To that extent i kind of agree, like I am not saying the current queue suggestion is perfect, but i dont think solo queue is a great indicator of much either beyond carry potential and maybe mechanics.

I honestly think they should just clamp down on who can queue with who; two divisions differential like it is now feels to big a gap lol. Same tier only may be better or anything to lessen that variance.

CatSith2 votes

Solo queue ranking isn't a real representation of your ranking, why? because you are randomly matched with 9 other players playing in one game and so you have to work with 4 other players. So how does the current solo queue really represents your SOLO rank if it isn't evaluated by the individual but by the group effort to win the game?

Solo queue is broken and has caused enough trouble in its time. RIP because we don't need it anymore.

sreggad10 votes

One problem you kind of just left out is the game is a team based game. So With your example of "history and geography" being graded in the same class so you don't know if you an A in one and a C in the other or overall B in both. It ignores the fact that in soloQ. Your graded solely on a single thing. Even though the game is comprised of multiple different parts.

SoloQ is your ability to carry the game. If you can't carry. you're expecting someone else to carry or be blessed with a group of people who share a liked mind. seeing as communicating with text while using a keyboard has it's obvious problems.

Now in a team of your friends. One guy can be just the shittiest player imaginable, but he is amazing at decision making and thinking of good team comps. Now that guy would be a valuable person on a 5man team. Yes your gonna have to pick up the slack for him in game but picking bans, picking a team comp, feeling how a game is going and calling plays. That's just as important as being able to carry.

to use your school example. SoloQ is like being graded on only history. So if your great at it your an A student. while if your a bad at it your a C student. You could be amazing at geography, math, arts. but because your bad at history your only a C student.

While being able to play in a 5-man you might be a C history student but your an A geography and math student. Your overall grade is higher. Which this is actually how the real world works at least in america. A college is only gonna look at your GPA. They don't care if you have an A in history if your GPA is only a C.

DirkTarTar8 votes

I've done far better flying solo than I have playing with any of my friends. I win more games, rage less, and generally have a better experience. In fact... I've found things to get progressively harder the more people I have with me. Not because I believe that my friends are garbage, because I know that they are at least decent players (some with alcohol some without), and not because we have poor communication, but simply because the matchmaking gets more difficult.

My group of 3 would either be ranked against stronger players, duos/trios/foursomes/or even 5 man premades, to compensate. I'm of course talking about normals because that is the only current way to queue up with more than one friend but less than 4 others.

The alternative, for me, is to queue up with players that I feel are good, assuming that I want to be smashing through ranked or getting carried by superior players. But that means that the majority of my playing is not going to be with my friends, but it will be for me to, hopefully, make new friends.

BUUT

If everyone has the same mentality as me, they wouldn't want to carry my useless carcase, whose presence is a liability to the team, and I would get booted as soon as they find someone better than me.

Is that bad?

Is trading players around and playing the alliance game to try and get ahead a bad thing?

I don't believe so. Because it was potentially the same thing when duo'ing up. You don't duo in ranked with someone that you know is terrible. You duo with people that 1) you like or 2) you trust.

As for playing with voice chat... I use Curse, and quite a few of the strangers I have played with ALSO use Curse, and I have made a few good friends from using it. Curse is super simple to use with the people that you are playing with.

BUUUUUUUT

Should games be decided by 1) who you know and/or 2) using a 3rd party voice chat to be able to communicate (skype, curse, etc).

That's not a problem for me, because point #1 didn't change much (as was said earlier about duo queue) and point #2 stands solid. I don't want LoL to have voice chat capabilities. I can't stand 90% of the people I play with anyways WITHOUT even listening to their voices and I certainly don't want to have to waste my time trying to mute people more than I already do.

LeeDark4 votes

They're removing the matchmaking penalty for being in a group, so no, there is absolutely NO downside to being in a group once the changes go live.

slippykitten8 votes

Did you just say that a tactical team game isn't fairly played when played tactically while cooperating with your team? You guys just..... I don't even know what to say anymore.

venomous frost4 votes

it is when one team gets to cooperate as 5, while the other team has somebody playing 5, both from the perspective of the solo player not knowing what his teammates will do, and the 4 man group not being able to communicate effectively with the solo player.

The Queen Viper5 votes

It's fine when everybody is on the same playing-field and level, meaning Ranked 5's.

It doesn't however work when you mix up groups of various sizes with random yoloQ people.

MLDzXnRRR7 votes

I just got mass reported by 4 man premades in DOTA 2 and went in low priority queue after they fed the carry of the enemy team. I don't think that 4 man premades in LOL will be different.

layrit6 votes

In Dota2 4man premades can't queue in ranked. Also the system in Dota2 doesn't throw you into low priority by the result of 1 game unless about 9 players ganged up on you (you had to mess up real hard for that) AND they should have reasonably high report value (the importance of their reports).

Noraver3 votes

{quoted}

I just got mass reported by 4 man premades in DOTA 2 and went in low priority queue after they fed the carry of the enemy team. I don't think that 4 man premades in LOL will be different.

Why do people think that it's going to be this way? "HURRR DURRR FOUR MAN PREMADES ARE GOING TO TROLL ME 100% OF MY GAMES xDDDDDDDDDD"

Riot already said this won't happen. Systems are in place to recognize this kind of reporting and abuse, and it won't have any effect on you. In addition, you won't ALWAYS be queue'd with premade teams. Not only that, but you won't be matched up against a premade unless you're with a premade.

Jesus. Some people are seriously stupid and don't read a single thing Riot says. They'd rather just IMMEDIATELY cry and complain about everything, rather than take thirty seconds and read something to answer their question.

Ratbert1 votes

Riot already said this won't happen.

Rioters say many things. Some happen, some do not.

Systems are in place to recognize this kind of reporting and abuse, and it won't have any effect on you.

So are premade's reports essentially worthless? Otherwise they'll have an effect on you.

In addition, you won't ALWAYS be queue'd with premade teams.

One loss can be the difference between silver and gold.

Not only that, but you won't be matched up against a premade unless you're with a premade.

While true, the problem lies when you're with a premade of silly players who will intentionally throw or force an ff at 20 if there are four of them. Even worse, they may try to blackmail you with a loss.

dEAdbUs2 votes

They changed promo games mechanics so one game won't change much.

LadyRenly4 votes

As a solo queue player, I rarely get the same role twice unless it's support, so I have to master every lane and role possible, where as 4 mans can just one trick pony it up. A lack of personal skill is easily made up for by having cohesive voice communication.

dEAdbUs2 votes

In gold I can play toplane almost every game. Get there and you can become one trick pony.

Dominick Destine4 votes

The real problem is; We already have a team queue... there is no need to destroy solo queue to make a second team queue.

Shosuko3 votes

So I have to ask - is part of Ranked supposed to be how well you can play with 3-4 complete strangers every game, risking AFK's and Trolls every match?

Or is part of LoL communicating with your team and developing strategies beyond which OP you can pick / ban?

imo - it's going to be an evolution in Ranked. It will change, and people who can play the macro game looking at team comp, early v mid v late game strategies and how a team comp can close out a game will succeed. And maybe it's time they did.

The Queen Viper3 votes

Only thing what will change, is that Ranked will be rather meaningless and it's more about who you are playing with instead of how.

Currently, playing ranked game by yourself and yourself only is a good metric of your personal skill level because in the end you and only you make the difference. If you systematically play with 4 other friends, your final rank is gonna be the average skill level of the team.

Imagine a support who just wards when and where his team tells him to ward. In the end, he would ward the map well, but that's not because he's good at warding, it's because his team does all the thinking for him. So even if he obtains a high rank, he would still be at a low level because he couldn't ward so well by himself.

dEAdbUs2 votes

Right now it's already about who are you playing with. That's why even boosters and players with scripts prefer to play duo.

MeesterMoo2 votes

*Queue

Sorry it really bothered me >.>

Horrow2 votes

{quoted}

While I doubt the matchmaking for Solo players will allow climbing opportunity equal to a 4-man premade, the main issue for me is that this new system would be a poor indicator of skill. At the very least, it would be quite ambiguous regarding its significance. A fairly weak player can just communicate well with his 4 other friends on Skype and climb while being quite subpar.

Wow, did you forget that League is a TEAM game? Your TEAMWORK with others is what makes for a good player. Not your Yolo 'skills' against pubs. What you said is not a bad thing, its a good thing. That's how the game is MEANT to be played. Using coordination to make up each other's shortcomings and work together for the win. Not to que up and be carried by ChallengeSmurf420.

Canidae2 votes

I just don't like the idea of solo queuing for a ranked game and getting put with a 4-man stack who don't even speak English...cause like...that happens to meh on normal queue.

dEAdbUs2 votes

No grand strategy? Tell about it to one trick ponies, to all this Riven mains. Adaptation? The only way to adapt vs Juggernauts - build team combination that counters them, and that's impossible with random guys. Or gives us more bans, but Riot against it.

ofart2 votes

People already accuse others of being boosted or carried. When you get to pick 4 others on your team, this starts to become reality. It's hard to have respect for the new ranking system.

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