Unbalanced champion? or balanced champion?

only zhule··2 votes·1,852 views

So i have long held that my champion of choice is bad because they take "too long" to be viable. So i figured i would ask this question without naming any specific champions.

So first to those who answer, what would you say your average game length is? i know mine is probably about 30 mins, unless a team surrenders. Once you have that number in mind answer me this is, "what percentage of that time does a champion need to be viable to be balanced"? By viable i am talking that the champion has a notable effect on the game that is not limited to landing their ultimate or some other minute+ long cooldown. This can be an engage / disengage tool, the ability to reasonably kill an enemy champion, the ability to keep an ally alive, etc... Champions can start viable and become not, like an early power champion who does little to nothing in late game team fights.

My champion of choice has an issue where i would argue they aren't viable for about 60%+ or more of the game. The running opinion seems to be that since their late game is abnormally good, it's not a problem if they spend that much of the game under whelming. So as a follow up, would anyone play a champion with a very strong early game BUT one that falls off really hard in the mid to late game (to the point where they are "useless" after the 15-20 min mark).

11 Comments

SUPERSATANA4 votes

Just say the name of the damn champ instead of hyper over complicating the issue, LOL.

only zhule2 votes

{quoted}

Just say the name of the damn champ instead of hyper over complicating the issue, LOL.

Fine. I think Sona takes to long to get up and running. And the average thing i hear back is "her late game though".

I don't believe that if a champion in a different role had that issue, or if we had a champion who was the inverse (broken for the first 10-15 mins, meh from 15-20, garbage from 25+) that we wouldn't see massive buffs or a straight up rework.

DuskDaUmbreon1 votes

Sona has a lot of strength in the first levels (Roughly 1-3/4) If you can apply that strength hard enough you can buy time for it to reach late-game and can get you to your late game faster.

She's a lot like Caitlyn in that respect - A solid lane-bully due to damage and range, shit mid-game, and then scales up really well in late.

How long games last with Sona depends on the comp and your skill.

only zhule1 votes

{quoted}

Sona has a lot of strength in the first levels (Roughly 1-3/4) If you can apply that strength hard enough you can buy time for it to reach late-game and can get you to your late game faster.

She's a lot like Caitlyn in that respect - A solid lane-bully due to damage and range, shit mid-game, and then scales up really well in late.

How long games last with Sona depends on the comp and your skill.

I have to disagree. With damage being what it is for basically everyone, the fact that Sona has one offensive spell, and honestly not even a strong one, just doesn't cut it to be a lane bully anymore. Everyone out damages you, Janna and Soraka (E) have a stronger poke, unless you get the AA reset from powercord.

You have no engage / disengage tool for your ally (550 range powercord that requires your last spell cast to be E, is not reliable), your sustain is an expensive joke during the lane phase, you can't even really play that passively and simply enhance your allies damage output since the buff only lasts for a single shot and can't be used against structures (so their goes siege power). There was a point where Sona was in a good place you had the damage to pressure lane but not auto lock it down, over all damage output was lower so your sustain (while not great) was often enough to matter in the long run of trading a couple chip shots.

Honestly i'm not even conviced Sona was made weak, i think she simply didn't change with the game and what was fair and balanced for a champion in season 5 is an outdated wreck of a champion going into season 9.

SUPERSATANA1 votes

[{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y1Kpw6tQ,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-12-03T06:11:25.344+0000)

Fine. I think Sona takes to long to get up and running. And the average thing i hear back is "her late game though".

I don't believe that if a champion in a different role had that issue, or if we had a champion who was the inverse (broken for the first 10-15 mins, meh from 15-20, garbage from 25+) that we wouldn't see massive buffs or a straight up rework.

Sona currently sits at 53,75% the 2nd highest of every champ, the first if you consider only champions with a significant pick rate. So your friends are dead wrong

only zhule1 votes

{quoted}

Sona currently sits at 53,75% the 2nd highest of every champ, the first if you consider only champions with a significant pick rate. So your friends are dead wrong

Her late game is amazing, not arguing that in the least. I'm saying her early game is bad and it takes way to long to get to that late game. Yeah she is a hyper carry champion, but it still usually takes like 15-20 mins to get to your power spike. If the average game is 30 mins long that means you are spending something like 50-66% of it being underwhelming. I can't think of any other champion that has the same kind of issue, sure there are other hyper carries and it does take some time to get them to their power spike, but none take more then half the game to get their.

SUPERSATANA2 votes

[{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y1Kpw6tQ,comment-id=0000000000010000,timestamp=2018-12-03T18:40:18.538+0000)

I'm saying her early game is bad and it takes way to long to get to that late game. Yeah she is a hyper carry champion, but it still usually takes like 15-20 mins to get to your power spike. If the average game is 30 mins long that means you are spending something like 50-66% of it being underwhelming.

I honestly don't get why you think something like that. Pro tip: a champ would NEVER have such a good win rate with an early as bad as you are describing, is just not happening. A win rate THAT good typically mean that the champ is NEVER that bad at any stage of the game, ESPECIALLY the early one that is CRUCIAL in solo q.

only zhule1 votes

{quoted}

I honestly don't get why you think something like that. Pro tip: a champ would NEVER have such a good win rate with an early as bad as you are describing, is just not happening. A win rate THAT good typically mean that the champ is NEVER that bad at any stage of the game, ESPECIALLY the early one that is CRUCIAL in solo q.

All the stats i can find have her 0-20 min win rate around 42%, if that was her average people would agree she was weak. After the 20 min mark her win rate tends to skyrocket up to about 52% and doesn't change more then 1% up or down. So the question then becomes WHY? I'd argue that it's because you tend to finally get a few things around that point. You get an additional 15% CDR on your base numbers for your basic abilities, putting you around 55-58.75% CDR on your basics. This is also usually around the point where you start to get items you need. This tends to be around the point where you cap your CDR from items, while also being around the point where you finally start building some AP to offset your low base numbers.

Personally i would love to see Riot remove Sona's ultimate passive and simply reduce the base cooldown on her basic spells by 25%, (while also lowering the starting mana cost that ends at the same point as current). This gives Sona more ability to interact with the lane without just giving her straight up more damage / sustain / what have you.

SUPERSATANA1 votes

[{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y1Kpw6tQ,comment-id=000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-03T19:56:36.723+0000)

All the stats i can find have her 0-20 min win rate around 42%

a) Can you provide some source? I didn't find anything b) Game that last less than 20 minutes are a very minority...how is clearly shown by Sona overall win rate c) A 42% win rate at 20 minutes DOESN'T mean she is bad for the first 20 m d) A champion strength is judged by his/her overall performances, not splitting a game into segments: your first statement was about your friends telling you that she is "bad cause takes too long to etc" and, atm, that statement is false PERIOD You wanna now go more in dept on Sona early for some reasons? Ok, but is not the same topic anymore

only zhule1 votes

{quoted}

a) Can you provide some source? I didn't find anything b) Game that last less than 20 minutes are a very minority...how is clearly shown by Sona overall win rate c) A 42% win rate at 20 minutes DOESN'T mean she is bad for the first 20 m d) A champion strength is judged by his/her overall performances, not splitting a game into segments: your first statement was about your friends telling you that she is "bad cause takes too long to etc" and, atm, that statement is false PERIOD You wanna now go more in dept on Sona early for some reasons? Ok, but is not the same topic anymore

https://champion.gg/champion/Sona/Support

under 20 min games are a minority, as are over 40 min games. But you still have to account for those games to some extent, or else you end up with cases where a champion is broken in one way or another when those games do happen.

At what point over or under 50% would you then say a champion can be defined as good or bad? A champion with a 53% win rate is "too strong" to many people, but a champion with a 45% win rate is "not weak".

Overall performance and a vertical slice are not the same thing. Just because a champion is over all "fine" doesn't mean that aspects of them aren't an issue.

What data would you need to judge how good or bad Sona's first 20 mins are? Not how good she is "over all" specifically that first 20 mins?

SUPERSATANA1 votes

[{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y1Kpw6tQ,comment-id=00000000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-03T20:26:24.843+0000)

https://champion.gg/champion/Sona/Support

Thx.

under 20 min games are a minority, as are over 40 min games. But you still have to account for those games to some extent

No, you don't. You just need to look the OVERALL win rate that takes into account EVERYTHING; how a champ perform early, how a champ perform late and so on. They tell you how good is a champ taking ALL this into consideration: ALL the "short games", ALL the "long ones" etc: is the PERFECT way to summarize the strength of a champ.

A champion with a 53% win rate is "too strong" to many people

It is, period; over 53% is way too much, unless he has a very low pick rate. Is not an opinion, is simple math.

but a champion with a 45% win rate is "not weak".

??? A 45% win rate champ is SHIT (again, unless something else is going on, like a SUPER low pick rate and being SUPER HYPER hard to play) , how is not bad WTF. Whoever told you that doesn't understand the first thing about this game.

Just because a champion is over all "fine" doesn't mean that aspects of them aren't an issue.

a) Sona is NOT fine, is MUCH more than fine b) Those aspect are clearly NOT an issue, until she can still perform THAT well; when a champ is doing TOO well you don't try to analyze the aspect were is still "not that good", you analize what make it too dominant and tune them down

An ISSUE is something that need to be changed in a champ to make him/her more balanced, a flaw in an overpowered champs is nothing of the sort, if anything is an healthy and welcomed limit that prevent him/her to TOTALLY skyrocket.

What data would you need to judge how good or bad Sona's first 20 mins are?

?

More from Gameplay

More by only zhule