first step to fixing tanks: address their % damage

Moody P··6 votes·2,914 views

early morning post so it's kind of stream-of-consciousness. Note that for context, a lot of champs started getting % damage around season 3-4 to stop raw health stack builds from being a thing.

If you balance the game around the idea that if you play well, you can kill anyone, the game's best picks will immediately shift to the safest group that can kill anyone. We've observed this consistently; start of this season, season 5, (sort of) the Ardent meta (granted, you just picked tanks because of bot lane). What adding % damage to tanks has done is shifted them from a group who can threaten squishies with damage, and threaten tanks+bruisers with lockdown, into a group that can threaten anyone with their damage, and now deals the damage that directly counters fighters. Given that most fighter's core damage items are almost straight HP, the flat damage dealt to them from certain tanks actually increases as they build these. When tanks are the dominant choice, or if they just happen to get fed, the fighter cannot continue to build their core items because they're flat HP; they must put it off for resistances, which delays their power spike and shortens the time frame they have to be relevant before enemy DPS comes online and outscales them.

A tank's duty is strategical over mechanical; they exist to soak damage and provide crowd control. When a tank is now providing hefty chunks of damage in fights - more specifically, %Max damage, which is fairly target agnostic since it deals the 'same' damage relatively, to everyone - you now have a third thing occupying a tank's power budget. While, maybe not directly, my thoughts are that this has had a long-term effect in powering down their ability to soak damage; because if even tanks are putting out % damage, then everyone is worse at soaking as a baseline, but because tanks are now doing relatively higher damage to fighters than they would have been in the old days, fighters have had to be buffed to put out more damage in kind. Notably, since tanks are what have given them the biggest existential crises, we've seen a rise in mechanics on fighters that bypasses a tank's main strengths completely - true damage, since tanks rarely buy raw health but almost always invest heavily into resists, and armor reduction. Black Cleaver used to be flat armor shred (granted, we had Battering Blows and lots of fighters used to buy Last Whisper in the old days), juggernauts like Garen and Nasus have had % armor reduction added to their kits, etc. Conqueror doesn't need to be said, we all know about it. This new availability of these items allows fighters to skip out on buying much more besides maybe a Cleaver, so instead they can buy lots of raw damage items like Trinity and Titanic. What happens then is while they're innately well-equipped to fight tanks now, they essentially turn into durable assassins against anyone else.

The effect of this has been a somewhat 'normal' shift back into the classic paradigm where a fighter would beat a tank in a duel, but it's now much more volatile than it used to be. This can be partially attributed to the current snowball heavy meta, but where a tank's original 'win condition' was to stonewall the lane and try their best to farm, which was undeservedly decried for lack of interaction, they're now incentivized to be actively trading and fighting to get ahead, which puts them at odds with the fact that there's a good chunk of fighters designed specifically to destroy tanks in these exact circumstances. Ironically, now that tanks have all but disappeared, and this plethora of penetration and armor-ignoring features is so prevalent, we've come full circle, and stacking straight health ends up being better than getting so many resistances.

My opinion: the addition of % damage is the root cause of the circular balancing and has led to an aggressive power creep amongst fighters. Hammering out each of these issues would, IMO make for a stronger long term solution than the constant band-aids to punching tanks like new IE and Conqueror. I don't expect this to be a popular thread just because tanks aren't amazing right now, but when the game shifts to bring them back I wholly expect it to be a repeat of what we've observed a few times; tanks do enough damage and have enough CC they can threaten anyone on their own and guarantee death with their team behind them, so tanks will just become the best thing to pick either in top, jungle, or both. People bitch, Riot buffs fighters and nerfs tanks just like the start of this season, and then a few months later it switches again. Let's break the cycle here.

11 Comments

NoPaxt4 votes

Most tank damage comes from AoE sources or the DoT they have due to their ability to survive. They don't one shot anyone, they don't kill after a full rotation of their abilities, and they only dominate when people don't itemize for them or have their own front line.

Escheton3 votes

Yes, but first thing they need to do is un-nerf their passive regeneration and do away with this short burst of regeneration after a trade fetish. (see Dorans and Second Wind) Tanks were healthy when their trades in lane were 20% of their opponents health, 30% of theirs. But they regen more so by playing passive a bit you come out ahead in the long run not counting jungle interference. Forcing bruisers to play more aggro to force trades. Part of the reason why regen bruisers like Mundo and Garen are strong right now, best of both worlds.

Now, one trade is 50% of the tanks health, 30% of the bruiser and next trade ignite is used so you have to basically give up lane.

Which comes to the next thing. Increase in base tankyness, or all around dmg nerf.

Tanks are good in teamfights. Theoretically. However, now, if one lane is ahead, the tank can no longer tank that person due to dmg amplification. If the tank is put behind in lane, they can't tank anyone.

Tanks are not supposed to be feast or famine.

Moody P1 votes

I agree. Durability in general has eaten a lot of nerfs for the sake of adding % reduction and % damage. Health regen in particular has suffered massively over the years. It would be good to restore it to even a portion of its former strength.

Beatrice falls1 votes

Or each change needs to stop about being "more damage" or "less damage", even in tank runes, 2 of them are basically here to deal damage. I enjoy so much having 60% of my health bar gone by a full tank Alistar because of W>Q>E>Aftershock>Enhanced AA -_-

MrFawknSunshine1 votes

i wanna know what tank is reliably doing tons of % hp damage?

Moody P1 votes

Ornn, Poppy, Cho'Gath. Sejuani has a 10 second cool down on hers but 20% in a combo is nothing small.

Most top or jungle tanks (mid in Galio's case) have a good chunk of % damage.

MrFawknSunshine1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xyTeifH0,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2018-08-27T16:11:48.735+0000)

Ornn, Poppy, Cho'Gath. Sejuani has a 10 second cool down on hers but 20% in a combo is nothing small.

Most top or jungle tanks (mid in Galio's case) have a good chunk of % damage.

ok and out of all these champs u named how many are in the top 10 in their roles ?

BobaFlautist1 votes

Poppy's kinda a hybrid diver/tank and has less effective range and cc than most tanks, Cho is similarly kinda a hybrid juggernaut/tank and has less reliable and more telegraphed abilities to compensate for his high damage.

Sejuani... Sejuani's a mess, and everyone that used to like playing her hates her rework. But her original iteration had powerful scaling damage at the cost of a weaker defense steroid and a weaker earlygame.

Galio's an ap bruiser that was recently retuned to try to discourage him from building full tank, he's not a good example of the intended damage output of a dedicated tank.

Edit: forgot Ornn. Ornn has good(ish) damage early but it falls off very quickly. He used to be a huge lane bully with no scaling but people refused to back away from early trades with a tank and kicked and screamed about not being able to facerolll a tank in lane and he got gutted. Now he's still earlygame oriented, he's just not even good enough at that to ever win lane.

Moody P1 votes

Poppy has her kit centered almost entirely around intercepting and locking down mobile divers. There's really no reason she should be just as well off hitting brick walls and its a contributing factor to how overwhelming she becomes when she's good.

BobaFlautist1 votes

I mean she's pretty good at locking down mobile divers, but I would argue there are better picks for that, and a huge selling point for her rework was that she was supposed to still have the tools to dive and threaten the backline when ahead/needed/not peeled well. That's why her ad scaling is so high, she's like a weird cross between Alistar and Vi.

DemainaNyx1 votes

I agree. There is too much to kill tanks, but not enough buffs for tanks to survive basically. And in the mean time they tend to still be highly tanky even when not building tank for some reason.

Additionally, I hate how tanks have such high base stats, but almost no scaling from the items they are expected to buy or insanely high scalings on AP/AD. I don't see how hard it would've been to take some damage off their base and give them an Armor/MR/Health ratio or something. I mean, J4 is apparently classified a tank, but if he builds Lethality, he can literally 1 shot a squishy team with his ult since it has a huge base an insane scaling. That just seems insane. Same with Malphite and AP.

That way, if a tank is behind, they aren't still hitting you for 200 damage on a 4 second ability. Yeah, the tank won't one shot you while building tank, but they have all the CC or slows in their kit to stay on you, so despite an ADC supposedly being able to kill a tank, the tank will just win from base stats alone and regen. Obviously the ADC should need to play extremely well to win a 1v1 when they are getting CC'd, but I've had games where the ADC plays it the best they can, but that Maokai auto heals for 500 hp and it doesn't matter how much damage the ADC does because they can't counteract that heal or his point and click CC and no one on the ADC's team wants to help them.

To me I think tanks should be able CCing. They lock someone down for others to do damage to. Or their percentage health damage should be harder to hit. Poppy gets something like 6% on her Q smash, and another 6% on the explosion afterwards. I feel like if the explosion instead did like 9% and the initial didn't have any, that would help balance it because you can play around the explosion part unless she or someone else CC's you, but her CC is conditional basically so unless she snap ults you or gets you into a wall, it's unlikely she'll get that percent health damage off consistently enough like her initial Q can.

That said though, I don't play top, so I don't know how that would affect match ups and such. Perhaps missing that percent health on the initial Q would ruin her. Maybe lowering Jarvan's base damage would make his jungle clear suck. I don't know. That's something I hope someone who plays the role would explain before making some huge change like that.

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