I don't think people realize exactly how big the Black Cleaver change is

FalconPawwwwnch·Apr 25, 2015·38 votes·4,461 views

It's not even the fact that Black Cleaver's stats changed, it's the fact that so many more bruisers can build phage now, and phage is one of the best low/mid tier items that melee champions can get, not only statwise, but to combat ranged champions.

Phage hasn't been a universal melee item since season 2, when champions like Olaf/Darius/Jarvan/Xin/Lee Sin/Warwick/Udyr would all get either some mix of heart of gold/philo and then bumrush phage.

This is a massive change for top lane, and a huge throwback to Season 2

93 Comments

xX420n0sc0pzXxApr 25, 201528 votes

When I saw the title of this thread I thought it said "I don't think people realize exactly how big the Black Cleavage is ".

FirstSergeantBimApr 25, 201512 votes

Always big is the black cleavage, realize this you must.

TenSlashTenApr 25, 20153 votes

Once you go black...

jama655Apr 26, 20151 votes

Only Play DariusApr 25, 201518 votes

RekSai Garen Darius Riven Rengar Yasuo would never get phage because the mana or AP from item 3078 force would get wasted.

New black cleaver is going to give more HP and phage passive for these guys. I think it's going to swing the balance partway back to fighters (right now it's in the favor of tanks, jungle tanks specifically).

BorblandApr 25, 201511 votes

item 3078 is still a very good item on them, yes the mana and AP is fairly useless, but the damage they get from it is just too good.

junglerboy16Apr 25, 20154 votes

but now they get BC, which will be not just 90% perfect, but 100% perfect.

YOU BEEN WARNEDApr 25, 20158 votes

I'd rather get triforce on xin really.

The5lackerApr 25, 20152 votes

You'll notice he isn't in that list at all. Because Trin Force is still a better option on him. However, Trin Force is a sub-par option on Rek'Sai, Riven, Rengar, and even Darius (Garen doesn't mind the loss of AP and Mana due to his higher base AD, and Yasuo just loves the crit chance.)

Rinky DinkyApr 25, 20152 votes

I feel like cleaver would be better if you fall far behind. He could instashread someone's armor by 45%.

BorblandApr 26, 20152 votes

BC is nice on them, but doesn't offer the burst of trinity, it's an item that is effective over time. (Like Botrk)

That's why I prefer Trinity over BotrK on Shyvana, BotrK is surely nice, but the enemy can escape much easier, because it doesn't give burst. It has a very strong active, but it doesn't last forever and afterwards, you won't catch him.

Trinity offers quicker destruction, and bonus MS on AA and passivly.

New BC is a bit of a mixup of the MS passive and the over time damaging, it's good, but I'll still stick to the good ol' tons of damage.

Knight SoIaire Apr 25, 20153 votes

also 20% cdr darius lowes it riven will jizz allower it rengo is the same not to mention guys like vi, sion

i think that this will become a go to item for those who like to bruise with good cdr

but not yasuo, maybe as a last item. but beside that he is forced to go static ie lw path with some lifesteal

The Red GoatApr 25, 20152 votes

20%? I think I remember it right that the cd from brutalizer is being replaced with that of a kindlegem but why would that give more CDR?

Knight SoIaire Apr 25, 20152 votes

surrender at 20 shows that it gives 20% cdr

FantasySniperApr 25, 20152 votes

It's 20%. No idea why.

ParapsychologyApr 28, 20151 votes

cause riot knows people wouldn't use it hardcore if it's just 10% cdr.. remember how many people used spirit visage when it was 20% cdr compared to now?

GorgiolioApr 25, 20153 votes

Trinity force is god like on Darius... and he uses mana...?

DucksGoMoofulApr 25, 20152 votes

He just doesn't have any AP scaling, which is what the original comment was talking about.

GorgiolioApr 26, 20151 votes

Oh, I only read mana.

AkitaSaitoApr 25, 20158 votes

Phage was better back then though since it slowed.

DMouseslayerApr 25, 20153 votes

I hope I'm not the only one who forgets sometimes and buys it and then wonders why it never ever proc's it's slow.

Illâoi Evê SiônApr 25, 20154 votes

Oh, please. Don't be so melodramatic. We all know it is going to end. Black Cleaver goes in. A bunch of good Fighter-players spam it in every game. Its winrate skyrockets. Riot is all 'Oh noes' and in the next patch most Fighters will be nerfed, except for one or two, which will be seen as 'OP' or broken for the rest of the season. Their banrate will skyrocket. People will spam 'Nerf Cleaver' or 'Nerf Riven' (because be honest, it is going to be Riven) for a week in the boards and in comments. Then the spam will subside to a less annoying, but still persistent rate of a rage-thread per day.
Afterwards, something new and OP (probably a new champion) will take the topic's place and the rate of flame on Black Cleaver and Riven (etc.) will decrease even further to approximately the current amount.
In the end, no harm will have been done. It will have been the normal, day-to-day business of League.
And whether or not something really was unbalanced, we will never know D:
^^

Der MetzgerApr 26, 20151 votes

the new prophet

ParapsychologyApr 25, 20153 votes

Hello lazy tank meta, aka, riot gave upon balancing assassin metas so they finally just said screw it, everyone's a bruiser now Yorick would be proud of riot's ability to forget something in a given meta, hey Khazix , how's the meta treatin ya' lately :D

Silents429Apr 25, 201518 votes

Have a snickers.

NinjaToad99Apr 25, 20152 votes

"Why?" "You get a bit bitchy when you're hungry." nom "Better?" "Better."

ParapsychologyApr 26, 20151 votes

It's cute that you think that's a viable comeback, but it just goes to show you couldn't actually come up with an actual.. VIABLE comeback.

Silents429Apr 26, 20152 votes

I think you are making a joke. About viable. But even still what I said wasn't a comeback. And I am very much cute.

ParapsychologyApr 26, 20151 votes

A whole comment about absolutely nothing but stroking your ego. Typically league player Draven

Silents429Apr 27, 20151 votes

I don't know how I sleep at night.

ParapsychologyApr 27, 20151 votes

I don't know either. With that kind of ego it must be pretty hard. Draven

Rinky DinkyApr 25, 20151 votes

Implying this current meta is not one of the most balanced states the game has ever been in, lcs and solo queue wise.

ParapsychologyApr 26, 20152 votes

I'm not talking about the meta. The meta is the meta. There is no balance to it, there is no imbalance to it. An assassin meta, is an assassin meta. A support-peel meta is a support-peel meta, there is no imbalance in it. A tank meta.. is a tank meta.. there is nothing to balance in a meta. See what i'm getting at?

What you balance is the CHAMPIONS. And yes, this is one of the worst states league has ever been in in terms of champion balance. Go look at the top played champions in LCS and other pro play scenes and tell me there is a larger champion pool NOW than 3 years ago. It may be relatively larger, but in proportion to the amount of new champions out; there is indeed a gigantic imbalance in champion playing/effective distribution.

Rinky DinkyApr 26, 20152 votes

Um, no, this is statistically one of the most diverse and balanced states the game has ever been in.

Literally.

ErockandrollApr 25, 20153 votes

As powerful as the rage passive is, it's what Bruisers really need, they need the mobility to fight and not get hopelessly kited. In fact, the last time I remember Bruisers being good is when Randiuns was still picked up for it's anti kiting properties. now that that got removed, bruisers have trouble sticking to anyone with mobility. (In this tank meta, the Tanks don't need the Anti Kiting because of their massive CC)

{quoted}

Phage was better back then though since it slowed.

It's probably healthier for the Bruisers anti Kiting tools to be speed based rather than slow based. Cause even if you Balance the speed boost to be about equal with the previous slow, the defender can at least try to retreat to a tower.

DanofDemaciaApr 25, 20151 votes

Why does no one think of the immobile mages every single meta or class just shits on them. Theyre making fghters stonger with this item by by mages

Rinky DinkyApr 25, 20152 votes

Yeah Victor, Xerath, Syndra, Orianna, Lulu, Annie, etc are all so weak. Those pro's who play them in lcs are drunk I tell you.

Also

item 3285 Lux = Freelo

DanofDemaciaApr 26, 20152 votes

victor orianna and lulu have some form of mobility bud and they all do insane amounts of damage besides lulu and ori who have insane utility.

BluePolarizerApr 26, 20151 votes

Brand and Malzahar are probably more reliable than any brusier in solo queue. They can hard carry even when behind just by virtue of their AOE, percent damage and CC.

The Bíg TicketApr 25, 20152 votes

Perfect item for Riven.

PartholonianApr 25, 20152 votes

No, brutalizer is a perfect item for Riven. Old BC was something you could build it into later. New BC is a lot less appealing. When does she want to hit tanks repeatedly? About as often as she has a use for a movespeed proc with her infamous 4 dashes. And how would you like to give up your early armor pen and cdr (comes much later in the buildpath now) and some of your AD to... get that movespeed proc early?

That's the point, of course -- she's not the kind of champion that should want a bruiserish tank-shredder item, if not for the old buildpath and conflicted stats.

Building her Brutalizer into a Ghostblade instead is going to be weaker, though. Less raw AD is a big deal for her, and the crit and AS/MS active are not that attractive because they don't work with her AD caster kit. She does AA some, but she doesn't rely on it as much as say Tryndamere or Fiora.

The fact is, people like Riven don't have a good thing to build their brutalizer into anymore, and yet they really don't want to switch to rushing a phage instead. Some people will love the new BC and its buildpath, but Riven isn't one of them.

PhoenixSlayer13Apr 26, 20152 votes

I'm just happy that there's finally another item that builds out of Phage besides Trinity Force again.

DreadlocksApr 25, 20151 votes

I agree. The item in my personal opinion looks too strong. Its good at HP CDR DMG and shreding.. forget the phage movement.. the item has no flaw... I hope they dont do a reksai and make it OP then give it nothing but nerfs after release...

ProfDrDeathApr 25, 20151 votes

The item actually has flaws, if you think about it.

For one, it does not offer as much power during its build path:

Kindlegem, while being a nice component item, is not offering much power on its own. Especially not on offensive-focused AD fighters.
Not everyone can make full use of Phage's speedboost (for example Garen, as it only procs on autos). If you can't make full use of that, it is not super powerful, and actually somewhat gold-inefficient from its stats alone. Brutalizer was a much more powerful component for comparable cost.
It is fairly expensive (3000 gold), and still has a high combine cost (825).

FirstSergeantBimApr 25, 20154 votes

While that may be true, it provides a legitimate 20% CDR option for tanks/bruisers offering combat & utility stats that isn't Frozen Heart. There just aren't very many other options for that 20% CDR we all love. I mean come on, Zeke's Herald isn't very convincing and I just don't see Nashor's, Athene's or Morello's making it into a tank/bruiser build.

While I do like the stats coming from Frozen Heart, it doesn't offer any health or combat stats. I always want to buy Thornmail (such a godly item) because it synergizes so well with my magic pen, cinder burn, gromp buff and puts those ADC's in check. So that means I have two item slots devoted primarily to armor and no health which delays that juicy health stacking from Cinderhulk. Furthermore, manaless champions want a 20% CDR item, but don't want to pay for the mana in Frozen Heart.

Additionally, there are very few items giving tanks a movement speed boost in the game. You may notice that % movement speed is found in quite a few AD & AP items, but not so much in tanky items. That means tanks/bruisers are left with Trinity Force, Zephyr or one of the other attack speed items which are expensive and prohibitive to soaking damage. While the new cleaver may not be a primary tank item, it will at least have enough health and CDR to make up for that and give tanks a little bit more movement and utility in battle.

When I first saw the changes I was really happy about them. It's a step in the right direction if you ask me and I can't wait until Riot revisits Zeke's Herald. Seriously, look at Zeke's and compare that to everything they're throwing into the new TBC. For the life of me I can't find a champion or role that will consistently want to pick that thing up. Maybe someone can enlighten me, but damn... it just needs... more.

AnomanderApr 25, 20151 votes

5% CDR from masterys plus BC and cdr boots puts them at 40% seems legit.