The flat true damage on Vayne's W should be removed

FalconPawwwwnch·Jul 25, 2015·275 votes·9,606 views

If her W is supposed to be good against tanks then it makes no sense that proccing her W removes a higher %HP off of a squishy target than a tank because of the flat true damage.

For those who don't know her W deals 20/30/40/50/60 + 4/5/6/7/8% of targets Max HP in true damage

Having flat true damage makes it good vs squishies too Vs a target with 1k health it deals 60 + 80 = 140 = 14% Vs a target with 2k health it deals 60 + 160 = 220 = 11% Vs a target with 3k health it deals 60 + 240 = 300 = 10% Vs a target with 4k health it deals 60 + 320 = 380 = less than 10%

Because Riot logic

Why vayne's W deals a higher % vs squishies than tanks is beyond me

Doesn't help that Sivir has nerfs on PBE, after that Vayne is going to be Jesus Tier

157 Comments

KONO RUBICK DAJul 25, 201548 votes

1000 hp: 8%1000=80+60=140

total dmg: 14%

3000 hp: 8%3000=240+60=300

total dmg: 10%

140/1000>300/3000

but np, let's downvote it

HochelagaJul 25, 20153 votes

god I love that post

Lord DusteonJul 25, 20158 votes

{quoted}

1000 hp: 8%1000=80+60=140

total dmg: 14%

3000 hp: 8%3000=240+60=300

total dmg: 10%

140/1000>300/3000

but np, let's downvote it

Because the squishy is taking 300-750 from her autoattacks while the tank is taking 100-250. Sure, the squishy takes more damage from the proc due to a lower health pool, but they still care more about her autoattacks and tumble melting them then the proc. The flat damage, then, is to make the proc not entirely useless against squishies (oh, you did almost 1/4th of an autoattack to me on that proc) while still not being overbearing to tanks.

KONO RUBICK DAJul 25, 201529 votes

they care more about AA, doesn't change the fact that the spell deals more damage to squishies meanwhile it was designed to melt tanks

YumaS2AstralJul 25, 201517 votes

{quoted}

they care more about AA, doesn't change the fact that the spell deals more damage to squishies meanwhile it was designed to melt tanks

It was designed to be good against tanks, not to be bad against squishies

That's the problem with % damage: it is good against everyone, it is just that it is good against tanks unlike flat damage, which is only good against squishies.

Knight SoIaire Jul 25, 20156 votes

% damage as either physical or magical ... yes that one does have the problem you described

mainly because tanky champion has more resists thus the damage goes away equalizing the effects of hitting a tank or a squish

but that doesnt apply to % true damage ... it shortens the time you take to kill a tank by a big amount ... but its much weaker vs squish

that flat amount is in fact the case why silver bolts behave in a way opposite to the one that was intended for it

op is right ... that should be removed

RogueWillJul 26, 20152 votes

Vayne most likely has a item 3035 and is dealing true damages to squishies anyway wether she aa or procs her W

Knight SoIaire Jul 26, 20158 votes

we speak about the nature of the skill here thou

every adc deals loads of damage to squishies when they get items

JustMyBassCannonJul 25, 201532 votes

For once, the thread isn't just vague complaint. There's an actual point, and it makes sense.

+1 because this is actually something I've agreed with for a long time.

SaiannaJul 25, 201528 votes

That is good observation!

But you know... Riot dislikes reading feedback about stuff other than skins

GGray2000Jul 26, 201514 votes

Why do you make fun of riot for not responding to anything? Riot is by far the best game company out there and even if they have there problems they listen to the player base, but its hard to listen to a bunch of people that are bash them for anything and everything they do.

Chaotic ReksJul 26, 20155 votes

THEN EXPLAIN NEW Fiora VU

GabuKidJul 26, 20156 votes

http://www.surrenderat20.net/2015/07/724-pbe-update.html

IcyPepperJul 25, 201527 votes

It's certainly not a bad idea of a nerf. Vayne's a little powerful right now, and this might be the toning down she needs.

IpolsJul 25, 201530 votes

Stop reasoning, let's make 90 identical threads about deleting her instead. Last time it worked better

Support EvelynnJul 25, 201521 votes

Delete vayne.

Synx7Jul 26, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maya Fey,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XXkyHLr9,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-07-25T20:17:21.237+0000)

Delete vayne.

Delete Riven as well while you're at it.

Irelia BotJul 25, 201515 votes

knowing Riot if they changed it it would be 20/30/40/50/60 +8/9/10/11/12% **BONUS ** health

In reality though I feel like they need to make some changes to her ult since a free pickaxe is nothing to laugh at when level 6. It should be changed to 20% of her total AD so that she is more reliant on having some real AD for her ult to be most effective and so that if she gets behind she feels more behind given that she should be best late game and sub par early to mid game.

Increase all her other cooldowns by 2 seconds but when she has her ult active each auto attack reduces the cooldowns of her Q and E by half a second.

aka latest riot buzz term #windowsofpower

LICENSED HOOKERJul 25, 201512 votes

I just vs'd a item 3931 Vayne She 5 hit a fed 3k hp trundle Made jax look as squish as lux Raped ziggs The only person that came close to killing her was trist(used whole kit to burst) wasn't even enough because the true damage procs every 2nd hit + lifesteal Holy..

CrossetteJul 26, 20152 votes

Sated is already unbalanced, add it to the strongest ADC and you win. (Sated Kalista next, maybe?)

HateDaddyJul 25, 201511 votes

Math and diamond icon

If you aren't upvoting you're silver or below

FalconPawwwwnchJul 25, 20157 votes

VersatileImpalaJul 25, 201511 votes

Sounds like someone just got stomped by a Vayne.

Irelia BotJul 25, 20158 votes

[{quoted}](name=Butthurt Orphans,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XXkyHLr9,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2015-07-25T22:42:13.173+0000)

Sounds like someone just got stomped by a Vayne.

it is kinda hard not to after leblanc and other assassins got nerfed out of being easily able to blow her up.

AnidanJul 26, 20156 votes

Thus the necessary evil of the assassins everyone seems to want deleted alongside champions like Vayne.

I'm thinking some people just plain don't like the concept of damage. No wonder everyone seemingly loved the tank meta.

lB2kGRlc8yJul 26, 20153 votes

I don't think damage is the issue, its the obscene utility that the champion gets without sacrificing anything where other less cancerous champions exist by sacrificing one trait for another. Say everyone had 100 talent point to spend on their utilities and damage, but one specific champion get 150 point for no real reason, thats the issue people have with champions like Vayne and a lot of the assassins people hated.

MohawkBirdJul 25, 201518 votes

Considering her sheer power and the amount of safety she gets, I wouldn't be surprised if everyone is getting stomped by Vayne.

Not KatarinaJul 25, 20158 votes

I've never understood that myself, either. I always referred to her as a tank shredding adc but she shreds everything that's not a tank just as fast (IF not faster). RIP. Really good idea.

FalconPawwwwnchJul 25, 20156 votes

She's pretty imbalanced right now so I don't see how removing this is going to gut her

AnidanJul 26, 20156 votes

As someone who enjoys Vayne a great deal: I wholeheartedly support this idea. It lets her continue to shred tanks, but reduces a bit of her power against squishies. It's a great idea, I think. She keeps her identity and other squishy people who do more upfront damage can attempt to stomp her even harder, because as of right now if they can't kill her very quickly she won't die to them at all. Graves would probably greatly benefit from the change, since he has his high upfront burst and Atk. Speed steroid to try to kill her before she can turn it around on him.

yukonlJul 26, 20156 votes

Lol I read this as "remove true damage" entirely and was almost going to downvote it. +1 for good reasoning without gutting.

DurzakaJul 25, 20155 votes

Dont forget the flat damage also makes it a bigger threat in lane.

Without it her triple hit trading in lane would be significantly weaker. Which would go a long way to balancing her.

S2C2Xd9KOyJul 25, 20153 votes

Which would make her unplayable because she gets bullied so easy anyways...

DurzakaJul 25, 20157 votes

Except every single lane bully ADC that used to give her a hard time has been nerfed repeatedly while Vayne has been buffed.

Her early game is far from overbearing. But it is also far stronger than it should be given her extreme late game power.

AnidanJul 26, 20154 votes

Vayne hasn't directly been buffed in any game-changing manner since her counters were nerfed. They were literally just nerfed to below her level. It's the Riot Circle of Life.

Champion 1 is strong -> champion gets nerfs -> champion 2 is strong now -> champion 2 gets nerfs -> repeat until back to champion one.

TerchioJul 26, 20155 votes

It's supposed to help against tanks, not make them squishy. This shows that 10 procs kills a tank, 7 procs a squishy... that's kinda stacked against tanks, methinks, especially tanks with 4x the health of the squishy.

That said, what she doesn't need is a proc that strong when she also has some utility that's rare in the ADC atmosphere: Twitch invis that acts immediately, Lucian hop with lower cooldown, Tristana shove with shorter cooldown, Varus damage procs that say, "Forget spell skillshots, I'll finish this now, and forget damage mitigation, too", Sivir speed boosts, and an AD buff plus stun proc, both unheard of in the ADC atmosphere (err, I mean Twisted Fate).

What doesn't she have a taste of? I guess Cait's range...

DDasaniJul 25, 20154 votes

Vayne's early game is already weak enough, stop crying about her % damage it's what makes her playable. If Riot is going/should nerf ANYONE it should be Yasuo and his excusable crit junk

CasterGilgameshJul 25, 20156 votes

thats a lie she has tumble and condemn to keep people that could possibly hurt her out of range plus she can win the trades by procing her silver bolts that apply true damage and the people that do strong against her have been nerfed since riot hates lane bullies

O Fallen ScholarJul 25, 20153 votes

{quoted}

If her W is supposed to be good against tanks then it makes no sense that proccing her W removes a higher %HP off of a squishy target than a tank because of the flat true damage.

For those who don't know her W deals 20/30/40/50/60 + 4/5/6/7/8% of targets Max HP in true damage

Having flat true damage makes it good vs squishies too Vs a target with 1k health it deals 60 + 80 = 140 = 14% Vs a target with 2k health it deals 60 + 160 = 220 = 11% Vs a target with 3k health it deals 60 + 240 = 300 = 10% Vs a target with 4k health it deals 60 + 320 = 380 = less than 10%

Because Riot logic

Why vayne's W deals a higher % vs squishies than tanks is beyond me

Doesn't help that Sivir has nerfs on PBE, after that Vayne is going to be Jesus Tier

It's not true damage. It's BotRK. It gives her too much power.

The case with Sivir was that her ultimate is one of the best initiations in the game. So they had to gut it. The main issue with Vayne is that she gets too much raw power from one item. It was already an issue back in S3. Now it's again since BotRK active range got "buffed" because item itself was bugged.

They haven't touched Vayne's true damage since S2 or S1 (too lazy to go to wiki atm).

My suggestion would be to nerf Vayne's attack speed scaling back to what it was before and do something about BotRK.

kile147Jul 25, 20153 votes

While this is all true, I think that all nerfs towards her should hit her early game kill potential. As is as soon as Vayne gets 1 item she becomes a very dangerous 1v1 threat even early on, which makes it hard to shut her down.

If you want a nerf to silver bolts that's more likely to go through and still hurt her, just ask for the damage to be changed to (0/10/20/30/40) base true damage. While it doesn't change the fact that her late game true damage still does more to squishy targets, it's a lot gentler nerf (thus more likely to go through) that hurts her more specifically where she needs to be hurt (early game).

The true damage isn't really the problem though, I think a better place to look would be to hurt her stun on condemn, and make it so that it starts off at a .5 sec stun and scales up based on the number of points put into it. Right now a good condemn can win Vayne the lane because the 1.5 sec stun gives her a great chance at a kill, or at the very least forces them to back. By reducing the stun duration at level 1 Vayne either chooses to level Q or W first and gives up a lot of early game kill potential, or she levels it up but loses out on mobility and damage. Either way this change would make Vayne more team reliant for kills early on and thus make her less likely to snowball.

I Main SwainJul 26, 20153 votes

vayne has been in that tier for years. honestly, im so freaking sick of seeing nothing but her and jinx. I don't remember the last game I had in which at least one of those two wasn't picked or banned.

ManwalrusJul 26, 20153 votes

Except true damage is good against everyone...because it's fucking true damage

NarasimhaJul 26, 20152 votes

Doesn't help that Sivir has nerfs on PBE, after that Vayne is going to be Jesus Tier

Just to jump in, what does this have to do with ANYTHING? The nerfs are against the MS boost of 'On the Hunt'. That has NOTHING to do with her interaction against Vayne.

You may as well say "It helps that Teemo has buffs on the PBE, after that Vayne is gonna be Trash Tier."

gl0hs0zgfJul 26, 20151 votes

I think the thought process is that "Oh, Sivir's strength that a lot of people are picking her for (the MS boost) is being reduced, so let's not pick her in favor of someone else who might not be able to bully Vayne as well (though really, EVERYONE can bully Vayne)" A nerf to a counter can be counted as an indirect buff to the counteree (counteee? you get my point)

MatezoideJul 27, 20152 votes

Twitch can bully Vayne?

Unlimited ChillJul 27, 20152 votes

So dealing more damage to the squishies is a bad thing? It just makes sense. If you do an attack to a champ that does 200 damage (excluding mr and armor) 1k hp the attack does 20% 2k hp the attack does 10% Everything will do a higher percent to a squishy Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Champion SkinJul 27, 20152 votes

Nope not evelynn ult as it is one of the few abilities which has no base damage so it will theoretically deal as much damage to a tank as a squishy (though of course that depends on them having the same amount of MR) (Mundo Q and Warwick Q works the same way.. unless the flat/minimum damage is higher so it kind of has some base damage)

DDasaniJul 25, 20151 votes

Hardly anyone plays her anyway, people like simple ADCs like Sivir and Ashe, Nerfing vayne would be pointless anyway

CasterGilgameshJul 25, 20157 votes

thats a lie she has more ranked play then sivir and ashe and even kalista at the moment

Sire HippingtonJul 26, 20151 votes

honestly, i prefer nerfing the ult ad-steroid. She just pops squishys in no time with a critbuilt cause she has a stronger ad-steroid than any melee carry... i really don't get how anyone complains about 220 truedamage within 3 hits if vayne can deal 10times as much physical damage to squishy targets in 3 hits, post mitigation...

leave her truedamage as it is, atleast it means she has to commit to one target, and it is more limited in it's scaleing. Vayne makes up for her limited effecktive range by shreding tanks, thats her niche, or should be. However, good base stats for an adc + insane ad-steroid allow her to destroy squishy as if she's draven, which imo shouldn't be her identity.