So over the last few years, Riot has been trying to give counterplay to all new champs and reworks

FalconPawwwwnch·Oct 7, 2017·200 votes·6,411 views

Slowly turning targetted abilities into skillshots on many mages, or introducing windows of vulnerability or downtime on other skills (i.e. making veigar's stun not instant anymore), and have even outright removed mechanics from champions for the sake of counterplay (i.e. kass and talon silences)

Now we're in a situation where ADCs are the only class who's main damage has no counterplay, and are being defended by champions who also have no counterplay either; you just instantly shield/heal allies and they get to keep rightclicking you with guaranteed/ranged damage

It's no surprise we've come to this

179 Comments

DoozkuOct 7, 201769 votes

This is true. ADC's are a super outdated class by design since they're the only class that has no major counterplay to their damage potential. It's part of why Assassins are so binary and difficult to balance. How do you outplay a point and click champion? How do they outplay you? You either kill them or you don't.

zero356Oct 7, 201745 votes

Just dodge their, mouse Duh ~~Kappa~~ [slayer-jinx-catface]

FaustavianOct 7, 201710 votes

Tbh, with a nearby bush this is pretty solid advice. Fuck the people weaving in and out of bushes.

zero356Oct 7, 20176 votes

item 3649 Oldest counter-counter play in the book

CowseedOct 7, 20171 votes

Mayhaps you can explain. Why do some people randomly drop wards when I'm about to kill them and give a short chase?

Mysticman89Oct 7, 20176 votes

In context they were talking about people dodging into bushes, causing loss of vision, so people right clicking just walk into the bush instead of issuing an autoattack command. The counter play to that is to have a ward handy to drop into the bush when chasing, so you don't have to face check it and can continue to auto them.

Outside of bush situations, people will sometimes in desperation drop wards down on top of themselves in the hopes you'll misclick the ward instead of attacking them. (Theres probably people just panicking and hitting all their actives too.)

JaxMoonStealerOct 7, 20171 votes

How could Riot add counterplay to autoattacks without making the game cunklier for everyone?

InfernapeOct 7, 20179 votes

The only way they could is if AAs became skillshots. But that only really works in SMITE because of its third person perspective.

Jhin, Graves and Kalista are the only exceptions because Jhin and Graves' autos have a cooldown (through reloading) and Kalista's AAs will miss if the targets are removed from her vision.

xJLx MCHammerOct 7, 20173 votes

{quoted}

The only way they could is if AAs became skillshots. But that only really works in SMITE because of its third person perspective.

Jhin, Graves and Kalista are the only exceptions because Jhin and Graves' autos have a cooldown (through reloading) and Kalista's AAs will miss if the targets are removed from her vision.

Or you can make AA more interactive. The same way Jhin and graves have limited ammos. You can give AA champions more windows with abilities. Like Corki...

BoilTheOilOct 7, 20174 votes

corki isn't very fun either if he gets slightly ahead he will burst your ass down

Tails9016Oct 7, 20171 votes

The only way they could is if AAs became skillshots. But that only really works in SMITE because of its third person perspective.

No one remembers Paragon, do they?

DrCyanideOct 7, 20173 votes

Same idea, a MOBA can aim autos if it's based on a shooter, and can't if it's based on an RTS.

Teridax68Oct 7, 20178 votes

I don't think counterplay needs to be added to autoattacks, specifically, right now the issue is that like 80% of a marksman's entire power is placed on their autoattacks, with little to no skill-based variation. On top of that, marksmen also tend to have steroids that are very reliable, on-demand self-peel / CC / mobility, and only a few abilities that require aiming or planning. Shifting a lot of their power to be a lot more conditional (e.g. putting a marksman at only a fraction of their current power if they just right-click, but giving them massive boosts in power when they satisfy difficult and interactive conditions) could help give counterplay to the class without necessarily making their autoattacks clunkier.

Electro522Oct 7, 20172 votes

So.....say they shift some of Twitch's power from his autos to his E, making it to where his E and poison are more reliable than his autos?

Is that what you're thinking?

Teridax68Oct 7, 20172 votes

Not more reliable, but more powerful certainly, so that simply right-clicking won't be as strong, but actually sticking onto a target for long enough and interacting with them gets you more power. Something as simple as uncapping Twitch's poison stacks could help him significantly in this respect, for example, as it would reward him more for a sustained autoattack pattern, and could help move some power away from his current front-loaded burst (such as by removing the bonus AD on his ult, or making the bonus attack speed on his Q more conditional).

JaxMoonStealerOct 8, 20172 votes

I agree with this. I think Jhin is one of the best designed marskmen since there's a clear window of vulnerability and you can somewhat play around his autoattacks (i.e., you know that when he's got his 4th shot prepared he's going to hit like a truck).

KhristophorosOct 7, 201749 votes

Well it also does't help that they reduced the cost of crit items, and made Ardent Censer really broken. ADCs were balanced around a certain power curve and that's been totally thrown out the window.

AirKingNeoOct 7, 201732 votes

The powercurve was already broken.

They should have reduced the power of the items when they reduced the cost.

SpideraxeOct 7, 201748 votes

On a related note I actually think it's interesting they actually managed to give Graves counterplay to his auto attacks

AbibyamaOct 7, 20175 votes

THAT'S IT! GIVE ADCS AMMO SYSTEM!

YOU DESERVE A NOBEL PRICE!

Bad joke aside i agree with you

DrCyanideOct 7, 20175 votes

Not just the ammo system. I remember an LCS game where Graves went to gank someone who would die in one auto, but he couldn't hit them because they kept the tower between them. The minions died and he had to back out. That kind of outplay is unique to Graves because his autos hit the first thing they come in contact with. Any other Marksman wouldn't have thought twice about the tower, would have gotten the kill and got out.

CowseedOct 7, 20174 votes

Actually this makes sense because majority of them do use guns as weapons. Maybe we could go a bit more indept with this.

We could turn this ammo system into a resource in its own and replace crit with that stat. It wouldn't necessarily break the game because it's just two non adc champs that build crit. The ones that have it built into there kits can just call it an empowered auto.

But this is just my imagination running wild though.

Yuri By MailOct 7, 20171 votes

Gangplank Yasuo Tryndamere MasterYi Kayle Kennen Talon XinZhao Off the top of my head build at least a crit item, with the first few building more than the latter.

CowseedOct 8, 20173 votes

Gp, Yas and trynd are the only legitimate melee champs that build crit. And gp is kinda stretching it because the longer the game goes on is the less he tends to stay in melee range.

MasterYi Kennen occasionally build crit but that's not what they are balanced around. People might build it if they can but they tend to go with more traditional builds. It's like a case of AD evelyn. It's not strong and it's not weak but it's an option.

Kayle doesn't build crit. She builds runaans. That's a different thing all together. Because similarly Teemo builds runaans but doesn't really care about crit. It's just a little icing on the cake that doens't matter too much.

Talon and XinZhao never build crit. It'd basically be trolling on talon because he doens't auto too much. I can understanding him building ie because his Q has a guaranteed crit but i don't see any merit buiding any other crit item on him. Same for Xin. Plus they have built in crit modifyers like yas and fiora that decrease the damage increase of critical stikes.

Hayaishi2Oct 7, 201732 votes

ADCs problem is not whether or not you can dodge their damage.

The problem lies when a kog maw can sit there melee range against a Talon without even kiting him because Janna pressed E on him. And that crit/AS items are so cost efficient that building something else is simply throwing. Look at how irrelevant Jhin is right now.

How do you even make auto attacks skillshots? It'd be super awkward to use specially when you are meant to orb walk and kite in order to survive teamfights.

Not all ADCs are problematic. Varus has generally been balanced, except when his Q was hitting for half your HP, even then it had counterplay, but hypercarries and Vayne, twitch and trist are known to be problematic champions; when the meta favors them they are incredibly oppressive.

RainbowIceeOct 7, 20174 votes

I've been saying for months that we need counter shield mechanics/items/runes , but i get quickly downvoted. It is the safest mechanic to have atm a shield, because everything else can get countered.

MelledoneusOct 7, 201724 votes

Quick idea hash for auto attack counterplay.

Ashe Autos can't crit or deal much damage until she amps up her Q, and only can use it on targets slowed by her (basically what she has right now, more or less).

Caitlyn Caitlyn's autos are slow, telegraphed, and have a noticeable wind-up time. However, they deal hefty damage, maybe even have it where she can only have homing bullets to a certain range. After that her autos are fast skillshots. Traps will let her auto without the wind-up time, or home in as long as they are revealed.

Corki He's already ability based, maybe put his machine gun on his autos, but treat them like Lulu's passive where it is scaling damage with ratios and on-hits and crits apply only at the initial auto. The longer Corki stays in range with his autos the more damage he can pepper on his opponents, but he has to decide to either stay at range and use missiles or to get up close for max damage.

Draven This guy is almost perfect already. Except make it so that Draven's auto attacks depend on his axes, that becomes his Q passive where he gains charges of axes, and the active of his Q impales his target with an axe (skillshot), and auto attacking them again gives a boost of some kind. If Draven drops his axes, he is stuck at one axe and cannot auto until it returns to him or he drops it.

Ezreal This guy is already fine, just remove his ability to abuse every on-hit in the game. Make his Q apply only to one on-hit at a time or something.

Graves Ironically the most balanced. Maybe work on giving his W some depth.

Jinx Mini-gun range reduced, rockets made much slower and powerful. Increase mana cost on rockets, make them deal more damage with crit but remove their ability to create AoE crits. That's just disgusting.

Jhin Remove the movement speed on crits. Make his traps something that can be active immediately but if left for some time, can ramp up to be devastating. This is to give him kiting potential without being The Fast.

Kalista Remove passive hop. That's just plain dumb. Instead, give her Q a lower cooldown where she can hop away more often, but the damage is reduced. If she hops forward the spear damage is increased. This fits her fantasy as a pursuer and makes sense in terms of force and direction. Have a large portion of her auto attack damage be translated into damage for Rend. Also make her passive/ult interaction consentual and give it more options.

Kindred Make Lamb and Wolf feel like separate entities, like having Lamb thrive in duels and kiting while Wolf thrives in chases and seeking out prey. Perhaps if an opponent runs and you have a mark on them, wolf chases and you can follow him? Or perhaps you can switch between lamb and wolf, each having a separate HP bar that if depleted, puts their respawn on a high cooldown that resets if you die or shortens when you collect a mark.

KogMaw Make him Kog in Invasion. Long charge-up period with a visual warning, then straight-up turret mode. It rewards strategy and placing teamfights well. Also perhaps make Kog stand still and the range be shown as your focus becomes selecting targets, maybe even allow casting ult during this period of time.

Lucian Each gun has a cooldown. Double-tap is excluded from this. You can now cast each ability twice in rapid succession (except dash), and you choose whether to blow all your damage at once or save it. Ultimate could have a thing where Lucian does his one-directional cast but you choose how long the ult goes for. It will go on forever, draining mana and locking you out of all spells except dash. If you really want to go all-in with this, make Lucian hit R for every shot he wants to shoot during his ult.

MissFortune Utilize dual guns theme in a different way than Lucian. Q now shoots two bullets, and if the first one crits the second one bounces to the nearest target, prioritizing champions. Make It Rain (E) now increases the damage of MF's bullets (abilities and autos) depending on how long you were in it, but radius is increased immensely. MF ult now deals significantly less damage to account for E changes.

Mordekaiser This isn't an ADC, silly.

Quinn Make Valor actually swoop at people and attack them with Q. Still a skillshot, but instead of the burst, he continuously tears at his opponent, near-sighting them. The damage occurs over a period of time, and Quinn gets a movement spees buff toward the target he is attacking. Valor has a set HP bar (kind of like a ward or whatever) that lets his opponent take him down prematurely. Quinn only gets bonus damage if she attacks while Valor is still on the target. Also, reduce the CC on Vault. It's fucking stupid.

Sivir Actually one of the more balanced ADCs. Perhaps add an opportunity for her to Ricochet her boomerang via Q.

Tristana Also doesn't require many changes. Increase range of passive, make her Q temporarily remove passive range boost during its duration but make it a massive steroid. Trist can choose to either slowly whittle from a distance or go in hard and risk her safety for good damage. This way her W remians reliable but has less effective range.

Twitch Q stealth does not allow Twitch to ult until he has broken camouflage for at least 2 seconds. Problem solved.

Varus Also very balanced. Maybe, if anything, make E more impactful. Perhaps an intensifying slow into a snare. Or make it apply grounded.

Vayne Q crit should never return. %HP true damage, sure why not. But make sure she never two-shots anybody with bullshit Ult-Qs again. Also make her stealth shorter.

Xayah Reduce burst damage on feather pull-back. If anything, make the damage DoT, like a bleed. Her problem is too much burst for a sustained damage champ. Also make the feathers louder and more in-your-face, right now it sounds like I'm getting pelted by cotton balls when my insides are getting torn out.

Soraka Sharpen banana animations, make those suckers look deadly.

TyrekGoldenspearOct 7, 20178 votes

Upvoted for Soraka adc.

FeathermaneOct 7, 201715 votes

Personally, I would just remove any kind of shield stacking from the game. Nothing worse than seeing a carry's health bar look like Kled's - 513 hp + 1455 hp -______-

ModAcademy KaynOct 7, 201711 votes

I'm just saying, but there's more to counterplay than dodging. Hell, that's a part of strategy, having to deal with something reliable, and play around it through some means. Can't dodge a bullet, so find a way to not be in the path, or stop the bullet from being fired in the first place. I'm not saying that ADCs aren't too strong, that's not my point.

My point is that things can have counterplay outside dodging with your pro-reflexes. Hell, that was a main complaint about a year ago, that strategy was being removed and replaced by reaction-fests. Counterplay to ADCs is proper positioning and protection of your own carries as a fight thunders on. Divers try to get behind enemy lines, tanks try to stop that, ADC's fire away, while mages make picks.

Disclaimer: Like said, not saying that ADCs aren't too strong, but having reliable ways of doing damage isn't without counterplay. In MMO fights, there is damage you can't avoid, but through Healers efforts, you can get through them with minimal effect.

AlmightyOct 7, 201711 votes

"Now we're in a situation where ADCs are the only class who's main damage has no counterplay"

item 3110 item 3075 would like to have a word with you.

"and are being defended by champions who also have no counterplay either; you just instantly shield/heal allies"

An early item 3123 will render any healer obsolete. Grievous Wounds are your best friend against healers. As for shields... Plot twist! They actually have a cooldown. Maybe try to attack the enemy while the shields are down?

I cannot comprehend how someone who used to be Diamond could compose such a Bronze thread. This just proves my point that digital divisions are purely a display of how addicted to the game the person is.

But, since we're talking about champions having counterplay here, tell us, what is so counterable about your beloved Tryndamere? Just wait his ult out? Unplug his mouse before he dings 6? Pray to RNGesus that he doesn't roll a lucky crit?

[slayer-jinx-unamused]

http://www.auplod.com/u/dpoula9d885.png

YuGiHoOct 7, 20171 votes

I see allot of people build bramble and thornmail but almost no one builds frozen heart anymore. idk how tanks dont run oom all the time without any mana items in their build

CatastropOct 7, 20174 votes

They do oom actually, and then they proceed to bitch about mana gating.

I remember Rubick making a thread about how "backwards" it was that mages with 1 mana item never had to worry about mana. Like the audacity, building a mana to solve your mana problems, who'd have thought right?

i cant move wtfOct 7, 201710 votes

This is going to get downvoted by ADCs but Riot should just remove attack move click. When this is mapped to right click it really does remove most of the skill of the role. If you have a projectile that can't be dodged it should at least require that the person clicks on you. That's not even necessary as it is. They just have to click in your general vicinity.

ThilmerOct 7, 20177 votes

Also, nobody has mention it yet.

ADCs are suposed to have "sustained damage", but if the ADC buys item 3031 suddenly he/she has "sustained burst damage". That shouldn't be a thing at all.

JJI744Oct 7, 20175 votes

Not completely true. AAs draw minion aggro(really only relevant in lane-phase), and there are a lot of itemization options that actually work really well vs. AA damage.

And I want to get this out of the way now before I move on, I think anti-AA itemization is actually really good. 20% off crits, 10% off AAs in general, AS slow, GW application and reflect damage. You CAN drasticly reduce damage you take from AAs if you want.

Two problems

First problem is ADCs are reaching their lategame at two items. IE+Shiv is currently giving ADCs everything they used to require 4 items for. AD,AS,Crit,Waveclear,sustain (Warlords, and Ardent if present), and even the ability to deal reasonable damage through armor thanks to Shiv damage.

Second, itemizing against AA damage is only effective when you just dedicate your build towards it from the get-go. If you get a damage item first, or need to get MR, or need to get tenacity, or even just get a jungle item first, then your defense falls behind the damage curve.

Personally, I think Warlords was the tipping point. Sustain is really powerful, and granting access to substantial sustain from the get-go that scales with other items immediately erases one of the usual weaknesses that used to be present until later in the match.

PB4UAMEOct 7, 20173 votes

Compare defensive reductions to %hp damage and % armor pen, then consider as well the damage returns per offensive stat for ADCs. You can't drastically reduce damage from AAs if they build a tank buster build path.

DariusDemiurgeOct 7, 20175 votes

This is why we need to retain some point and click ccs. They are a necessary evil in league of mobility and infinite damage.

xJLx MCHammerOct 7, 20175 votes

this is why i have made many threads asking for some sort of counterplay to AA

YuGiHoOct 7, 20175 votes

What we need to to is remove the counter play from everyone, that way we can find true balance Irelia

CatastrophicOct 7, 20173 votes

Zed Balance is weakness

FutureCreatorOct 7, 20174 votes

Just make autos be able to miss once they're fired, not turn and follow you wherever you go like heat-seeking missiles.

kasfasOct 7, 20174 votes

It's quite sad how they decided they needed to nerf sunfire a damage for being uninteractive, and remove sej w for being uninteractive, and yet leave the most uninteractive source of danage in the game untouched even AFTER their respective class rework.

At least be consistent Riot. If you want adcs to be the only class in the game with uninteractive and rediculous damage from range with incredible safety who's only counter gets removed by another class in the game who's sole purpose is to remove their only weakness, then you might as well come out and say it. "We want ADCS to be OP whenever possible so that we don't have to deal with actual meta change".

And if that isn't true then you have zero explanation for the failure that was the marksman update do you?

Get it together. Stop destroying the game and lying to your customers. If this game didn't have the momentum it does I'm almost certain it wouldn't make it far today.

roppleDoppleOct 8, 20171 votes

as someone who is lvl 7 sej they made the w better. It is a slow that applies two stacks for her E and adds physical damage to her kit. Sej is honestly OP rn and anyone complaining about her being weak needs to play her with a team that follows up on her insane amount of cc.

kasfasOct 8, 20172 votes

She's not weak, she's just not fun. I tried to play her after her rework and just absolutely hated it. Her entire kit revolves around her e which I find to be in interactive and unfun, instead of her w which it SHOULD have been based on.

I liked den because she did sustained damage and had a big ult. Now she has her stupid e which seems incredibly unrewarding and is also broken.

I don't think I'll ever be able to play her again honestly because she just isn't fun anymore.

GigglesOOct 8, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Slowly turning targetted abilities into skillshots on many mages, or introducing windows of vulnerability or downtime on other skills (i.e. making veigar's stun not instant anymore), and have even outright removed mechanics from champions for the sake of counterplay (i.e. kass and talon silences)

Now we're in a situation where ADCs are the only class who's main damage has no counterplay, and are being defended by champions who also have no counterplay either; you just instantly shield/heal allies and they get to keep rightclicking you with guaranteed/ranged damage

It's no surprise we've come to this

Its because right clicking from a super long range has no counter play when you remove tankiness from tanks. Just look at the armor pen we have. I also remember 500 armor tanks with 300 MR and 5k hp season 1-3, not no more.