Edit: my apologies, it was 4%
Nobody takes Veteran's Scars anymore because 45 HP is completely shit compared to the 8% regen buff
Riot intended for Squishy champs to take it but even none of those take Veteran's Scars
Paroe34 votesNobody takes Veteran's Scars anymore because 45 HP is completely shit compared to the 8% regen buff
Riot intended for Squishy champs to take it but even none of those take Veteran's Scars
Cant we do the best of both worlds and make it the greater number between 3% max health and 45 max health? Or give it a ranged/melee distinction?
charcharmunro10 votesI don't think there's any champion where 3% max health is less than 45 after a certain point.
LadyRenly28 votesI have yet to ever see an adc take veterans scars
its always 18/12/0
TheUltimateSpear21 votesJust buff the flat health it gives lmao.
EMeta4 votesYeah, if it were 60 I'd take it on a few champs.
Ahristocats15 votesit was changed to 45 HP? welcome to noob trap masteries.
HighH14 votesthat's like 5 minion autos,it's totally useless
Dengeden3 votesMore commonly referred to as highest win rate masteries.
KONO RUBICK DA8 votesMore commonly referred to as highest win rate masteries.
Once you have 1150 HP you broke the 45 HP because it was 4%, it may be good for ADC, but it sucks for bruisers.
Tychusfindlay9193 votesOnce you have 1150 HP you broke the 45 HP because it was 4%, it may be good for ADC, but it sucks for bruisers.
And bruisers build that path over ADCs anyway. Upvoted my dear sir.
DarkRitual14 votesIt's so much better... ...at like lvl 1 and 2.
ChaoticPinecone3 votes4% is only better off after level 6-8 or so on most champions.
So let me ask you a question - how many times have you waited until level 6 to trade with the enemy?
KONO RUBICK DA17 votes4% is only better off after level 6-8 or so on most champions.
So let me ask you a question - how many times have you waited until level 6 to trade with the enemy?
no, the better question is: how many time you traded before lvl 6 and from lvl 6 to 18
ChaoticPinecone3 votesHow is that a better question?
My view is that what happens early game directly influences the rest of the game. 45 HP early that helps you A) gain a lead or B) survive from the enemy getting a lead is a lot more useful than having 75 extra HP at 18. (75 being the net bonus of having 4% at 3000 health as opposed to 45 flat.)
RocketRelm8 votesIt's not a full 45 HP early, because even if your HP pool is 800, that's 32 Bonus HP. At which point this mastery gives you +13 HP net. Choosing the 4% doesn't mean you get 'zero' benefit early on, you get about half the 45 HP directly from lvl 1.
ChaoticPinecone3 votes800? Most champions start around 550. So you get around 22 HP from the 4%. So the question is, what gives more benefit? 22-ish HP early or 75 lategame?
I still hold that the 75 hp lategame is less effective than 22 early.
RocketRelm5 votesYes, thus the second half of my post. "you get about half of the benefit directly from level one", aka 22.5. I don't know why you phrased it as if I didn't know this.
It's also only 22 directly during a lvl 1 fight. It loses a significant X% efficiency with every level gained, so by time you get to typical all-ins (lvls 3-4), it's closer to 15 HP.
Yes early strength can matter more, but you're banking an awful lot on what is functionally 1 second's worth of an HP pot.
iamthegoatofwar1 votesto trade with them? a good number of times I play people that ramp up.
ChaoticPinecone5 votesI'm trying to make two points.
Who do you play that ramps up so hard that the extra HP is going to matter? If you have 3000 health, its an extra 75 health. At 4000 health, its a difference of 115 health.
On carries who dont itemize for health, the 45 flat is even better. Most champions dont hit the 1125HP break-point until level 10 or 11. Who do you play that needs 2 ranks into their ult before being useful?
For most of the game, the HP difference is negligible. The only times I see either version of Veteran Scars being make-or-break is to survive things like the last tick of ignite or getting flash-autoed by a Leblanc under tower. And those situations tend to arise earlygame instead of late.
iamthegoatofwar4 votesuh nasus? oh and sion.
ChaoticPinecone3 votesSion you can make a case for - if you let him stack for a few hours.
Nasus's biggest weaknesses is early levels when you dont have stacks. Thats when the 45 flat is the strongest. Once you get to 20 minutes and 500 stacks, who cares about the extra 50 or so health youll get from the 4%?
Spartacus SVD4 votesHow are you doing your calculations? because 4% of 3,000 is not 75, but it's 120 (3000x4/100=120) and 160 (4000x4/100=160)
and the 1125HP breakpoint is reached at level 6-8 and it's reached even earlier if you get Bami's Cinder (Level 5) and with scaling health seals it would be at Level 4 with Bami's Cinder on most champions.
Honestly on 4% it would be really too strong, it should be 3% and maybe 3.5% if that's too weak.
Supreme Senpai692 votesMore like how many times have you traded with an enemy before level six and lost the trade due to 45 HP?
ChaoticPinecone3 votesI can count at least a few times where i died with the last tick of ignite or would have traded one for one under my turret if they had to auto me one more time.
I cant remember one instance where i survived a lategame teamfight as a tank with 120 HP or less.
pusea1 votes[{quoted}](name=playfive Koopska,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YEXyUML6,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-05-29T18:08:48.267+0000)
it was changed to 45 HP? welcome to noob trap masteries.
I guess Faker's a noob then?
Weasel Kensei5 votesI guess Faker's a noob then?
If Faker put on a blindfold... and won (please dont do that Faker) we would have people thinking "well der proz did it, must be the best way... where muh blindfold!?"
Faker isnt human, hes a cyborg from the future sent to destroy our perception of the game. When hes off showboating taking the trash heap mysteries its because hes just messing with us to see if we will copy him... cause thats a thing people do. Copy the pros.
So no, hes not a noob, hes a sadist who is trying to trick people into using a mastery he can win with and that others will suffer and die.
A Liberal7 votesWait wait wait
So I'm supposed to take HP yellows on midlanders, but 45hp from masteries is useless..
Hmmm
Verdade5 votesNo, you take hp seals only if you know you're laning against AP champ. Its disaster against AD mids
FantasySniper6 votesI actually still use it over Runic Armor for most champs. People think that 8% is a lot, but if you were to convert it into gold, you'd need something like 40% lifesteal or 500 Hp5 for it to be worth more than 45 health. Almost no champions achieve that in a normal build-path, meanwhile the 45 health is there literally the whole game, making it worth more unless you genuinely rely on healing more than health like Mundo, Soraka, Sona, Tryndamere, etc.
MorganFreemanBot4 votesI actually still use it over Runic Armor for most champs. People think that 8% is a lot, but if you were to convert it into gold, you'd need something like 40% lifesteal or 500 Hp5 for it to be worth more than 45 health. Almost no champions achieve that in a normal build-path, meanwhile the 45 health is there literally the whole game, making it worth more unless you genuinely rely on healing more than health like Mundo, Soraka, Sona, Tryndamere, etc.
This is kind of faulty logic though, because it's applying it to a small 'snap shot' of combat.
Think about a more common scenario: Early / middish lane phase down in bot lane. Each ADC has between 3-12ish% life steal, and it's not a constant fight. While you're right in that Runic will only give you an extra 1 or so hp on your autos at that stage.. That's over the entire lane. So after a fight, when you're AAing to heal back up, that 1 extra health per auto really starts to stack up. This is also true of late game, where runic very quickly overpowers scars in team fights / skirmishes / siege situations.
Lastly, a lot of people don't think about the fact that Runic effects your baseline health regen. So the regen you get just sitting in lane doing nothing is buffed, and it's really surprising how quickly the extra health from just abse regen (on champs with shitty regen) overpowers scars.
Veteran Scars is awful, through and through. Pretty much the only time you'd ever want it is if you know 100% that you and your enemy laner are going to walk into lane at level 1 and fight to the death.
FantasySniper2 votesIt's actually less than 1 HP per auto, though. It's more like one-sixth HP. Then Feast gets a bonus of 1.6 health per proc. Hp5 is increased by less than 1. It's usefulness during the laning phase is next to nothing, even if you're pushing the wave. As an ADC, it really only shines if you have a healing support or you're using Warlord's Bloodlust. I'm not saying Runic Armor doesn't have its uses, but Veteran's Scars is by no means exceeded by it.
Battlecast Sona2 votesrunic armor exceeds veteran's scars because it scales. Veteran's Scars is always going to give you 45 HP no matter what, but 8% increased shielding/healing/etc can scale. So as your support gets more levels you get more use out of it. As your Heal spell (or Barrier, whatever) is higher level, it gets more benefit. As you get more lifesteal, you get more benefit.
Meanwhile 45 HP is 45 HP is 45 HP. The only time I could see it being better than the alternative is if you have literally no shielding or healing on your team at all.
CerealBoxOfDoom2 votesVeteran Scars is awful, through and through. Pretty much the only time you'd ever want it is if you know 100% that you and your enemy laner are going to walk into lane at level 1 and fight to the death.
or if you know that youll never be given a chance to breathe and 8% more healing wont make much difference
Lady Hammerlock5 votesIts just way better if ad's did go resolve,8% more lifesteal is 1.more sustain from dorians 2.more sustain from bloodlust if you take it 3.8% more heals and shields from your support
MunchCrunchLunch4 voteslol. I remember when everyone was bitching that 3% was useless and a flat value would be better.
Ackelope5 votesMaybe a flat value would be better, but c'mon a flat value of 45? that's really pretty shitty.
Only Play Darius21 votes"Everyone's bitching that it's useless? Let's turn it into something completely different and leave it even worse than before!"
TTK Dreadnought4 votes[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YEXyUML6,comment-id=00040001,timestamp=2016-05-29T19:08:25.183+0000)
"Everyone's bitching that it's useless? Let's turn it into something completely different and leave it even worse than before!"
i actually like the new E
Erractic Eick1 votesTo be fair, the old veteran's scars was a staple for tanky champs, and anyone who crunched the numbers saw that it was an incredible help. Think of the Mundos, or Alistars, or Tarics, or Singeds of the world. They all stood to gain 120+ health, and while that may sound minuscule for a tank, that's the difference between surviving and dying when ambushed with low health. That is a whole beginner's item worth of health. Not to mention Sion, who basically NEEDED that mastery to synergize with his permanent bonus health stacks.
Dataless4 votesIt's useful on some Support champs like 
. Between the 45 hp from Veteran's Scars and flat HP yellows it's a fair amount of extra durability in the early lane phase, which is where I need those stats the most. 8% extra self healing is not useful to me as my health packs are generally for my ADC anyway, and once lanes break I only use them for the move speed boost or as a last-ditch heal to save someone from a tower shot or ignite.
Jorencice4 votesIt increase your base health regen as well.
Dataless2 votesBards base health regen is 5.4 - 14.8
8% of that would be 0.432 - 1.184
That 8% does not stack with regen multipliers like the one you get from a typical support item like 
not worth
Jorencice5 votesSee that doesn't take into account potions, spells, regen from buffs, regen from any tank items you buy.
Etc...etc...
Dataless5 votesPotions: I almost always purchase a refillable potion on one of my early backs, 8% of 125 is 10, so I would have to use the item 4.5 times (2 initial charges and then one back to recharge, and an extra half charge/another recall) before the mastery eclipses 45 flat HP. Another way to look at it would be to add in the effective HP from my 3 starting potions, totaling 36 extra HP, plus an additional 1.5 charges of a refillable potion. So yes, after about 8 - 10 minutes the 8% bonus healing Mastery starts doing work via potions, but I need that 45 bonus HP right away, not 8 - 10 minutes from right now.
Spells: Because I do not run AP on a typical Bard rune page, I only have 5 AP, which gives my rank 1 HP pack roughly 73 Healing. 8% of 73 is 5.84, assuming we round up to 6 I would have to use ~7.5 HP packs to equal out 45 flat HP, this denies this potential HP to my ADC, who needs that sustain much more than I do (what with additional starting gold for more potions, and an easy refillable potion purchase).
Regen from Buffs: I should never have red buff on Bard, unless I smack an enemy jungler in the face and "secure" the kill.
Regen from Tank Items: Do not get amplified by the additional 8%, it affects BASE health regen only, and tank item regen is additive, not multiplicative.
45 flat Health is more valuable to me during the early stages of the game, where I am actually strong enough to slug it out with an ADC for a few auto attacks and not get chunked for half of my life. 8% extra self healing is simply not strong enough in the early game, and not relevant enough in the mid/late game.
Again, I'm speaking only about , but I have put a great deal of thought into this choice.
NineTailedMystic2 votes8% more healing also affects your ADC Healing you.
Dataless1 votesCan you give me an example of an ADC healing the support outside of the Heal spell? Because if that's all that you are referring to it is almost not even worth bringing up in the conversation.
NineTailedMystic5 votesI figured it'd be worth mentioning the Heal spell, sheesh.
Weasel Kensei2 votesWhat makes you certain it only affects "base" health regen? Been a while since I tested, but I do believe it works with items.
It works with Mundo and Singed regen.
Im fairly certain it works with Warmogs... though its passive may technically be healing not regen.
I will admit that being able to take a hit on Bard is nice though, but I still find that I can get 3 shrines down and still be able to get some healing for myself if need bee.
At rank 2 W the max heal is 110 + 60% of AP With just 5 AP and Windspeakers that 124 healing. And on yourself its 10 extra healing. In conjunction with potions, its easy to eclipse the 45 HP in sustain, but it is also true you are slightly more vulnrable to early game burst. Id test that "base" health regen theory of yours, I believe it does affect item regen (as I remember) but Id be perfectly happy to be proven wrong and stop believing it in error.
ThwartinMaPlans2 votesGod no you want to make the tank meta even worse?
Venowolf3 votesTank meta needs buffs 😒
