PSA: Mages are "the scaling class" of mid laners. They are not designed to auto-win vs assassins.

HateDaddy·Aug 3, 2017·31 votes·2,398 views

They are not designed to auto-win vs anything. Their designs are based around the idea of farming/outscaling their lane opponent and anytime they are against an AD mid not named Gangplank, they outscale their lane opponents hard. They offer more utility to assassins and potential ADCs that go mid and typically far safer burst from range. When you are the best scaling mid lane class, which mages are, you have to have some intended weaknesses.

Frankly, I see a lot of posts whining about hexdrinker and the various MR items available out there and how it's unfair to mages. Sorry you can't one shot everything while also having some of the best utility? I've said this a bunch: seekers needs a buff to simply have its values up front. That's all mages need, once acquiring that and a little bit of HP, mages are totally safe from being bursted. So at this point, you play to outlast and outscale. The burden is now on the enemy AD to roam and execute roams successfully. There's various ways to play around this, so it's not something that lacks counterplay.

Mages can't dominate lanes vs ADs and be the better scaling class and let's face it: that's what most of these players want. I know anti-AD is the in fade around these parts but can we just stop? It's totally non-sensical. The game is actually incredibly well balanced at the moment.

78 Comments

BobaFlautistAug 3, 201713 votes

The problem is that to many people, mages are the "Safe" class of mid laner. You pick them not to win, but to not lose. Against other mages, they can always farm unless they get super behind and until a snowball gets serious, it's almost always possible to win a fight or trade evenly when your ult/summoners are up.

Assassins throw that out the window. Because Riot doesn't want them to be a scaling class capable of targeting a well protected adc in a teamfight, they have to achieve lane dominence, they have to get kills, and they have to snowball the game into an early win before mages come online. It's not that mages scale especially well, it's that assassins don't.

For various reasons, Riot decided that giving assassins lane dominence through raw burst and mobility wasn't healthy (something stupid about "No counterplay 100-0", I wasn't listening), they gave it to them through itemization. Which leads to lovely situations such as "We both itemized against one another, I landed all my skillshots against him and have literally no further fighting tools and he's still well out of kill range, he missed his only skillshot and popped me as I ran under tower, what gives?".

And the problem is that each time an assassin does that, it's easier next time, until the mage has no choice but to hide under tower with no vision waiting to get dived again while the assassin roams and tries desperately to snowball other lanes before they all off.

Nobody's happy, and everyone feels like winning is harder for them than their opponent.

HateDaddyAug 3, 20177 votes

{quoted}

The problem is that to many people, mages are the "Safe" class of mid laner. You pick them not to win, but to not lose. Against other mages, they can always farm unless they get super behind and until a snowball gets serious, it's almost always possible to win a fight or trade evenly when your ult/summoners are up.

Assassins throw that out the window. Because Riot doesn't want them to be a scaling class capable of targeting a well protected adc in a teamfight, they have to achieve lane dominence, they have to get kills, and they have to snowball the game into an early win before mages come online. It's not that mages scale especially well, it's that assassins don't.

For various reasons, Riot decided that giving assassins lane dominence through raw burst and mobility wasn't healthy (something stupid about "No counterplay 100-0", I wasn't listening), they gave it to them through itemization. Which leads to lovely situations such as "We both itemized against one another, I landed all my skillshots against him and have literally no further fighting tools and he's still well out of kill range, he missed his only skillshot and popped me as I ran under tower, what gives?".

And the problem is that each time an assassin does that, it's easier next time, until the mage has no choice but to hide under tower with no vision waiting to get dived again while the assassin roams and tries desperately to snowball other lanes before they all off.

Nobody's happy, and everyone feels like winning is harder for them than their opponent.

You are wrong, mages scale incredibly well. And if an assassin misses key skill shots, they are not going to 100-0 you. Please be realistic about these scenarios because that's not what happens. I understand some frustration in dealing with lane dominators and I've even mentioned that seekers could use some buffs. But mages do scale much much better than assassins and as a result, many of them are designed to be strong laners to allow them the ability to roam. You come from a place of bias and quite frankly, poor play most likely. Nevertheless, I appreciate your reply, thank you.

BobaFlautistAug 3, 20175 votes

Do keep in mind I was saying that things are or less "balanced", but the way they are balanced leaves both sides frustrated. It's probably true that I used some hyperbole there though.

I used to play a ton of fizz (well before all the nerfs), and I well remember the sinking feeling of "I'm 10/0 but I can't do anything anymore, and we're going to lose".

I think that Riot's policy of balancing entire classes around windows of the game when they are intentionally stronger or weaker than other classes takes away from the game as a whole, who has ever said "I enjoy rotational balance so much I would like to experience it _within any given match"?!

Personally, I think that assassins as a class should be completely reworked around crippling people instead of killing them. Single-target anti-suppports that have to work to get their skills off, but are slippery and hard to kill. But that's just me.

HateDaddyAug 3, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Do keep in mind I was saying that things are or less "balanced", but the way they are balanced leaves both sides frustrated. It's probably true that I used some hyperbole there though.

I used to play a ton of fizz (well before all the nerfs), and I well remember the sinking feeling of "I'm 10/0 but I can't do anything anymore, and we're going to lose".

I think that Riot's policy of balancing entire classes around windows of the game when they are intentionally stronger or weaker than other classes takes away from the game as a whole, who has ever said "I enjoy rotational balance so much I would like to experience it _within any given match"?!

Personally, I think that assassins as a class should be completely reworked around crippling people instead of killing them. Single-target anti-suppports that have to work to get their skills off, but are slippery and hard to kill. But that's just me.

I feel like Tanks and even mages to an extent cover the role of "crippler." I can appreciate where you're coming from in regards to windows of opportunities for various champions but in my opinion, removing those windows or creating more similarities to all champions having windows of strength and weakness that closely resemble each other would make the game much more bland.

RevaliAug 3, 20172 votes

Assassins do scale, but their scaling curve compared to every other class is smaller then the other, some ideal scaling assassins are champions like Shaco (post rework) Ekko Kassadin

they have scaling curves almost that of mages to an extent.

EedatAug 3, 20171 votes

The problem is that to many people, mages are the "Safe" class of mid laner. You pick them not to win, but to not lose.

...................what?

BobaFlautistAug 3, 20171 votes

I wasn't quite clear, sorry. I'm not saying mages are passive, but people will often pick Syndra or Ahri or Orianna not as a specific strategy to play safe and farm up so they can outscale their opponents, but as a consistent, versatile presence that they can rely on to matter at all points of the game.

It's not like go or Vanye (or Karthus or veigar, to give some mage examples) where you're happiest playing back and farming in order to smash the ene I'm faces in late game, when people pick your standard mage over an assassin it's to be consistently useful throughout the game without having to work super hard to press any specific advantage.

Sun Wu RyuumokuAug 4, 20171 votes

He's right, most of AP champ are safe. Mean at safely range, and don't need to commit to kill or farm. This dosn't mean they're unkillable or any...

But when u play ur monkey mid or an assassins u make a bet (the bet to crush the game before team fight).

SohleksAug 3, 201713 votes

AP items need a refresh and to be less resident sleeper at least.

Morellos first, durability second, void third and deathcap last is starting to get really boring. AP builds don't have any place for real balls, they've become very curtailed choices.

They need some room for edge and away from comfortable utility/cdr safety builds that are allowed to stay better for longer.

HateDaddyAug 3, 20175 votes

{quoted}

AP items need a refresh and to be less resident sleeper at least.

Morellos first, durability second, void third and deathcap last is starting to get really boring.

I can get behind that

I loved the introduction of the hextech items.

MarshbouyAug 4, 20171 votes

I like how you're agreeing with him and your statement is supportive and positive but you still get downvoted.

Stevev45Aug 4, 20173 votes

He said he liked hextech. He's being down voted for that.

ProfDrDeathAug 3, 20172 votes

That's certainly true.

For starters, maybe bring 100 AP RoA back? Or give RoA 10% CdR while building out of Fiendish Codex?

SohleksAug 3, 20173 votes

Or simply when it's fully aged something neater happens than the last bit of 4 ap & 20 health and mana.

It does hit 100 ap when fully stacked btw, it starts at 60 ap but they raised the growth to 4 ap per stack

RoA buffs isn't exactly what I had in mind though. It's not as frequent as morellos but currently has its uses. Maybe could have something though.

ProfDrDeathAug 3, 20171 votes

Hmm, could've sworn they had nerfed RoA back to 80 at full stacks...

But yeah, something nice there would be good as well.

NyarlathοtepAug 3, 20176 votes

They are not designed to auto-win vs anything

They sure as hell are not supposed to auto-lose vs anything the moment the enemy buys hexdrinker.

ADCs that go mid and typically far safer burst from range

And most of the times at the expense of reliability.

various MR items available out there and how it's unfair to mages

Well wouldnt be smart with the introduction of new mr items to get new magic penetration items? As much as i love void stuff, i really want some new toys to diverse a little bit my build. Besides im pretty sure that the reason that there were only two magic penetration items is that there werent more mr items in the past. And now suddenly everyone has more mr for no reason at all. Its not like mages suddenly ruled the game. Hell only two items lost mr if i remember correctly, edge of night and ga.

Sorry you can't one shot everything while also having some of the best utility?

I dont want to one shot. I just want to deal enough dmg that my enemy laner wont all in me without a second thought. Also best utility? Not every mage has good utility. For example orianna has godlike utility, yet someone like xerath has bad utility, with only one unreliable single target stun and a mediocre aoe slow that can be strong if you hit the centre. He can zone a tiny little bit with his spells but its still nothing compared to some other powerhouses. What i want to say is that dont group all mages in one category.

little bit of HP

Correct me if im wrong but unless you are battle mage, its far better to buy ap than opting in hp since your primary job is to still deal dmg.

better scaling class

Im pretty sure you know it but oh well here goes nothing. You cant scale if you keep getting dived by the enemy whether you get out alive or not.

Need Gold 4 TentAug 4, 20171 votes

Heh, with all them lethality items, would be fun if mages get a new set of flat mpen toys to play with. Imagine a Kass with an AP version of item 3147 item 3142 item 3814 item 3020 . I am an evil person

LightIsMyPathAug 3, 20175 votes

Honestly as a mage player I don't have much trouble vs assassin as I have with ADCs.. When the ADC can get heavy Mr (for a squishy class) and survivability tools on top of the lifesavers his support has (rightfully so since it's their role) where is my scaling? On what aspect do I "scale" exactly? Having to land cc? Occupying enemy slots with Mr items instead of pure damage? Assassin is in a even worse spot I guess since we both have to rely on having our own ADC deal damage but at least I can help him with that while he's powerless. What was so wrong with"the assassin can kill the mage more or less easily and has better roams. If he fucks up he dies. Later in the game the assassin job becomes way more difficult as he has to set his path carefully to eliminate the enemy carries. The mage will support frontline damage or try to find a position where he can burst the enemy backline depending on the champion. Both have good damage scaling and are a major damage threat.". Just before I had a Lissandra game. I managed to catch enemy tristana alone and comboed her. She remained at 2/3 hp and autoed me 2 times (both crits): Dead. I've seen the same things happen to assassins more then once. How is this ok? "end the game before x minutes or your damage /tankiness disappears unless you are playing an ADC."

ExecutionerAug 4, 20171 votes

You mean you full comboed her, everything included, and she had around 2000 hp with most likely around 70 or 80 mr. That means you did a whole 700 hp in a full combo? I find that very very unlikely. 1/2 would be more believable but 700hp with a full liss combo? No way.

Plus your playing liss, she has low damage, but great uility.

Though liss does deserve a slight buff to some of her spells that I will say.

LightIsMyPathAug 4, 20171 votes

I didn't write the numbers. But I was dealing no damage at all that's for sure. She had the bt shield though. In teamfights I was desperate, I tried to enter in but it was like I wasn't even there if not for the cc. Once they killed me so fast I couldn't even press r . One single tristana auto did more then azir (who was pretty fed) rotation except ulti.

ExecutionerAug 4, 20171 votes

I see, the good ol bt shield for 350. Now its more believeable. Though that is the only sad this with lissandra, I will not lie. I love adc, and tristana. However lissandra feels horrible to play. She has great utility, but other than that... if your looking for her damage output you better have 45% cdr and kite like a mother fucker or else you are not killing.

However I can easily see what you had to do in team fights, to bad you are not able to kill tristana with a bt shield. Quite sad that you cant even get her to half. However she feels more like just pure utility mage than anything now.

LightIsMyPathAug 4, 20172 votes

I have nothing against Tristana in particular (in fact she's one of my fav ADCs even though ADC is an off role). I just think that's not fair that only their class is relevant late game damage wise. Especially when they became more hard to take down too! They have better damage because it's dps type, one single auto late game chuncks more than a full rotation from many mages save for ultimate, sometimes even with ulti (like for liss). How is this fair?

GayFluffyUnicornAug 4, 20174 votes

I'm just so frustrated with that current adc/supp fiasco. I have zero impact in teamfights as a bruiser except as bait/meatshield/cc bot. Like you literally deal no damage and get blown up so fast despite having like 2 dmg items and full tank. As a mage you have a short time frame where you can actually kill an adc. Then it is a trist, cait,kog, twitch who kill you in a second before you even get in range to press your buttons it is so bullshit and even if you drop full combo they be like: lul double locket, janna ult, redemption, heal summ, draintanking from BT and bork.

Voluug13Aug 3, 20175 votes

First of all, you biggest error is shoving all mages into ''mages'' is kinda silly when you have mages that are designed and intended to counterpick assassins.

Second, no, mages scale like crap compared to AD champions. They scale with AP and (some) with cdr, and that is it. Thats not ''an scaling class'', not when MR options are extremely varied and armor options are nerfed every 4 patches. Also there are earlygame mages and lategame mages. Not every mage has Karthus levels of scaling, and many mages are designed around burst.

Third, this game has no realistic lategame at the moment. Unless you are an adc there is no space for lategame champions on any other lane. Junglers and the general rhymth of the game simply dont allow it.

Lastly, the only reason why mages complain is because they are stuck on the no-man's land between adcs and assassins. Riot giving assassins ludicrous lane superiority to make up for the increased and increasing adc safety is a problem mainly towards (most) mages whose kits and itemization simpl cant keep up when assassins are strong enough.

HateDaddyAug 3, 20171 votes

{quoted}

First of all, you biggest error is shoving all mages into ''mages'' is kinda silly when you have mages that are designed and intended to counterpick assassins.

Second, no, mages scale like crap compared to AD champions. They scale with AP and (some) with cdr, and that is it. Thats not ''an scaling class'', not when MR options are extremely varied and armor options are nerfed every 4 patches. Also there are earlygame mages and lategame mages. Not every mage has Karthus levels of scaling, and many mages are designed around burst.

Third, this game has no realistic lategame at the moment. Unless you are an adc there is no space for lategame champions on any other lane. Junglers and the general rhymth of the game simply dont allow it.

Mages don't scale just because of damage, they scale because of utility. Taliyah for example wins games with good ult placements.

Voluug13Aug 3, 20175 votes

Yeah but Taliyah is an extremely bad example because she has one of the most steep but rewarding learning curves in the entire game. Her damage has been gutted, and she is only good in places where damage has less relevance and utility does, aka pro-play. Outside that she is a very very mediocre pick with gutted damage and mediocre itemization.

Also not all mages are Orianna, or are even near her levels of reliable utility.

As someone mentioned, Xerath, Malz, Aurelion, Karthus, etc arent pseudo-supporty mages with lots of utility or AoE. They depend mostly on their ability to scale based on damage, not whatever combo wombo ult they have.

Also its kinda hypocrital to say ''mages dont scale through damage'' but then say this

{quoted}

Assassins specialize in killing one person late game. Mages kill entire teams.

to say mages are an ''scaling class''.

Frap AchiinoAug 7, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Yeah but Taliyah is an extremely bad example because she has one of the most steep but rewarding learning curves in the entire game. Her damage has been gutted, and she is only good in places where damage has less relevance and utility does, aka pro-play. Outside that she is a very very mediocre pick with gutted damage and mediocre itemization.

Also not all mages are Orianna, or are even near her levels of reliable utility.

As someone mentioned, Xerath, Malz, Aurelion, Karthus, etc arent pseudo-supporty mages with lots of utility or AoE. They depend mostly on their ability to scale based on damage, not whatever combo wombo ult they have.

Also its kinda hypocrital to say ''mages dont scale through damage'' but then say this

to say mages are an ''scaling class''.

Uh I played against one as akali and her early damage is retarded.....it was my first time against her since around her release and the popup with the Q, I was almost dead, it took me a while to lean how to play against her, but she does damage.

Voluug13Aug 7, 20171 votes

So... you lack of experience against a champion with a champion that has shitty earlygame.

That doesnt mean anything.

PrinceOfStormsAug 4, 20171 votes

Not every mage has Karthus levels of scaling

Ironically Karthus has some of the worst scaling in the game- he gets more damage building item 3027 item 3040 item 3135 item 3151 item 3020 than the traditional AP build because it gets him more damage

Need Gold 4 TentAug 4, 20171 votes

Why... the 3 sorcs?

Edit: AP wise, I think Morellos is a better replacement for roa as it gives cdr and the mana to scale seraphs too.

PrinceOfStormsAug 4, 20171 votes

You build 3 sorcs because the MPen from Sorc shoes isn't unique (unlike Haunting Guise and Liandry). You don't benefit from the movement speed but because Karthus' AP ratios are so bad he benefits more from the 15 MPen than he would from an AP item. If he builds this, he has 35% scaling and 60 flat pen before runes/masteries.

Need Gold 4 TentAug 4, 20171 votes

You go deep ferocity or deep cunning? Cunning has some flat pen better for squishies while ferocity has % pen for tanks that Kart has no business focusing, although I'd argue DFT is the better keystone over TL.

PrinceOfStormsAug 4, 20175 votes

They are not designed to auto-win vs anything.

They should auto-win against ADCs that are taken midlane, since ADCs scale harder than mages.

seekers needs a buff to simply have its values up front.

Or give it the Zhonya's active so that it's on par with Hexdrinker and Bramble Vest. Item-lite items are stupid and should be removed.

HateDaddyAug 4, 20173 votes

{quoted}

They should auto-win against ADCs that are taken midlane, since ADCs scale harder than mages.

ADC mids often won't scale well because those team comps will lack utility and wave clear that a mage brings. They snowball incredibly hard though.

Or give it the Zhonya's active so that it's on par with Hexdrinker and Bramble Vest. Item-lite items are stupid and should be removed.

I don't think that'd be balanced. Zhonyas outright invalidates ad assassins burst, so you can't simply give the active in a recipe. I really think if it just got the armor/AP up front, it'd be good.

PrinceOfStormsAug 4, 20172 votes

Zhonyas outright invalidates ad assassins burst, so you can't simply give the active in a recipe. I really think if it just got the armor/AP up front, it'd be good.

Hexdrinker makes it nearly impossible for a mage to all-in the assassin/ADC who buys it, and on top of that makes it really safe for the buyer to all-in the mage.

Bramble Vest negates the sustain of half the toplaners in the game.

Executioner's Calling invalidates Vlad and Soraka for 800g.

Asking for Zhonya stasis to be put on Armguard isn't too much of a stretch because these items exist.

HateDaddyAug 4, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Hexdrinker makes it nearly impossible for a mage to all-in the assassin/ADC who buys it, and on top of that makes it really safe for the buyer to all-in the mage.

Bramble Vest negates the sustain of half the toplaners in the game.

Executioner's Calling invalidates Vlad and Soraka for 800g.

Asking for Zhonya stasis to be put on Armguard isn't too much of a stretch because these items exist.

Maybe true but you'd be looking at a pretty drastic price increase

LauchmelderAug 4, 20174 votes

No you wouldn't. Because if they'd increase Seeker's price they would need to increase it on the other components as well.

They don’t do it and their AD favorism becomes blatantly obvious.

Kariu RenaAug 4, 20173 votes

ad favorism

Maybe if you open you eyes you would realize that mages are the best class in mid since forever. Sure there maybe some meta where they are not desirable but they are always a safe pick. Pretty sure orianna syndra taliyah has been meta since mage item rework which was how many years ago already?

LauchmelderAug 4, 20171 votes

It's not about opening my eyes, it's about you missunderstanding my point. Maybe I worded it badly.

IF Riot would increase the price on Seekers because it got a worse stasis active WITHOUT increasing the price on Hexdrinker it would show that they favor AD over AP.

I'm not saying they are favoring AD, what I'm saying is that this price increase (if it goes above 1300g to normalize it with Hexdrinker) would be a reason to believe they do.

Sun Wu RyuumokuAug 4, 20171 votes

ADC mids often won't scale well because those team comps will lack utility and wave clear that a mage brings. They snowball incredibly hard though.

i understand what u mean... But they still scale hard, they're no adc who don't transform into monsta during late.

NineTailedMysticAug 4, 20174 votes

Except most Mages are mid game oriented. Here is when they have their burst to heavily damage Fighters and Tanks (unless they rushed early MR, since they normally get their damage or armor items first for fighter/tank respectively), and one shot squishies with a rotation. Early game they don't have the burst, Mana, or CDR to do that much in lane, and late game is where they fall back on their utility to win teamfights since most players will have their defensive item that drastically reduces the effectiveness of their burst such as GA, Zhonyas, Banshee's, etc, as well as Supports having more protective items.

There are only a handful of true late game Mages being Cassiopeia Ryze Kassadin and Azir .

And honestly, Mage vs Assassin match ups should mostly be skill match ups post 6 laning. Assassins dodge their skillshots, they win. Mage dodges their skillshots, they win. (Or one or the other outplays them in another way). Assassins should be vulnerable pre 6, with a few power spikes (such as Talon level 2, Zed WEQ AA Ignite). Just as Mages shouldn't "auto-win against Assassins" they shouldn't auto-lose either. That's one of the primary reasons Assassins got an Update in the first place.

PopcornBunniAug 4, 20173 votes

If this is the case, why do so many late game mages have lower win % even as the game goes longer (Annie, Ryze, Cassiopeia) while assassins still often sit above 50% after their first drop at 20 minutes, with some gaining win% at longer games like Zed and Diana?

This is a rule that should hold true in theory, but doesn't in practice. Mages do generally ramp up a little as the game goes longer, but assassins rarely fall off below 50% even at games of 40+ minutes.

HateDaddyAug 4, 20171 votes

{quoted}

If this is the case, why do so many late game mages have lower win % even as the game goes longer (Annie, Ryze, Cassiopeia) while assassins still often sit above 50% after their first drop at 20 minutes, with some gaining win% at longer games like Zed and Diana?

This is a rule that should hold true in theory, but doesn't in practice. Mages do generally ramp up a little as the game goes longer, but assassins rarely fall off below 50% even at games of 40+ minutes.

Because assassins in solo queue take advantage of poor coordination and general badness from the majority of the players. That's not the assassins fault, that's the drawback of solo queue.

FairyfleurAug 3, 20171 votes

There are many mages that don't scale super hard, take Taliyah for example.

HateDaddyAug 3, 20171 votes

{quoted}

There are many mages that don't scale super hard, take Taliyah for example.

I don't know about that, her ult is one of the best utility tools in the game.

HeresyHorusAug 4, 20172 votes

I don't know about that, her ult is one of the best utility tools in the game.

that can be negated by 90% of champs cuz every fuker and his mother got a dash even ADCs ( except Mages, cuz Mages are good against other Mages only and are food for other classes ).

Caitlyn Corki Ezreal Graves Lucian Quinn Tristana Vayne

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

PrinceOfStormsAug 4, 20171 votes

Vayne dash can't go over walls though?

LauchmelderAug 4, 20171 votes

She can tumble over small walls like J4s ult.

Unless they fixed that.

HateDaddyAug 4, 20171 votes

{quoted}

that can be negated by 90% of champs cuz every fuker and his mother got a dash even ADCs ( except Mages, cuz Mages are good against other Mages only and are food for other classes ).

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

K they jump over the wall and now they cannot enter a fight/defend a tower. It's like saying J4s ult sucks because you can dash out of it. It's a legitimate tool to FORCE a champions escape spell at will. That's HUGE. very few champions can do this reliably.

HeresyHorusAug 4, 20174 votes

JarvanIV R doesnt suck cuz it has AoE damage, and with great scaling too.

It's a legitimate tool to FORCE a champions escape spell at will

Nope, her R is very situational its not even funny.

She either uses it defensively to help her remaining team escape after being crushed in team fight or offensively to takedown objectives or secure kills when u have better champs and much larger gold lead only, and its not easy to position for either case to call it a denier "at will" ... please !

things like Maokai Rumble Gragas Gangplank Janna R and Corki Package can be called deniers at will, NOT Taliyah .