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Can we make early earned S ranks be kept instead of dropping due to a bad team?

ValyrianBlade··2 votes·624 views

I just had a game of hexakill as Malphite where I played a god-like early game. I mean, my team was down 13-1 and down 2 turrets, and that didn't really recover.

Yet in the midgame I was 7/1/5. I was single-handedly keeping us in the game. They're 7K gold lead eventually turned in to our 2K gold lead because I was eventually strong enough to engage good fights with my ult. We aced them 3 times, although I never lived to enjoy an ace.

My team voted to surrender twice, and I knew I would get an S rank if I surrendered. I was playing a champion I hadn't gotten an S on, and I have available chests. I almost surrendered, but I voted against it because I thought I could carry.

If I accept the loss, I get an S. But in trying to win instead, I give it up.

I finished the game 12/9/23, an obvious not-S score and wasn't surprised to see an A+.

If I'd surrendered with my team when i was 7/1/5 at the first vote, or 9/2/8 at the second vote, I'm practically certain I'd have gotten an S though. Even if I wouldn't have, I'm certain that it has been the case for someone, somewhere, that they earned an S rank and voted not to surrender when they could have, carried the game, but lost the S rank in the process because it's nearly impossible to maintain all of the S-rank qualities when against fed opposition. So why should someone lose an earned S rank because that person refused to surrender and wanted to try to carry a game where their allies were so far behind?

If at any point after the 20min mark you have an S rank earned in the game, it should be preserved and you should get an S. You could have surrendered and gotten the S, so why should you lose it when you try to win. I thought the whole point of the game was to win? That's why KDA and stuff doesn't count, right?

9 Comments

archerno13 votes

U do realize that S is not based just on on KDA? U had almost lowest damage done in your team. U werent even that high on kill participation. Hecarim and Taliyah had way more.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

{quoted}

U do realize that S is not based just on on KDA? U had almost lowest damage done in your team. U werent even that high on kill participation. Hecarim and Taliyah had way more.

Err, there wasn't a hecarim in the game, and the Taliyah was on the enemy team (i.e. the fed team).

Also I had 26K damage to champions as a tank, while the highest damage on my team was 34k.

I had a 9-kill streak.

Look, you can say what you want about that game. I don't care and it's not the point. I'm telling you I had an S from that early game and lost it because I opted to try to carry and win rather than surrender and lose.

You can disagree that I had an S, but you can't disagree that it's not possible to have an S and lose it due to a bad team. I'm saying that shouldn't happen. I'm saying you shouldn't lose an S rank because your team is behind and you carry them back in to it rather than surrendering. I've gotten enough S ranks to know that it was an S rank at that point (also, the fact that your damage scales better later in to the game, if I'm getting all of my deaths late game my damage is obviously not going to be as high as it was early in a relative sense).

Point is simply that it is possible to have an S rank and lose it because you choose to try to win rather than surrender. That shouldn't happen. You should never have incentive to lose a game on purpose. Even if it doesn't apply to THAT game, it definitely applies somewhere.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

{quoted}

Err, there wasn't a hecarim in the game, and the Taliyah was on the enemy team (i.e. the fed team).

Also I had 26K damage to champions as a tank, while the highest damage on my team was 34k.

I had a 9-kill streak.

Look, you can say what you want about that game. I don't care and it's not the point. I'm telling you I had an S from that early game and lost it because I opted to try to carry and win rather than surrender and lose.

You can disagree that I had an S, but you can't disagree that it's not possible to have an S and lose it due to a bad team. I'm saying that shouldn't happen. I'm saying you shouldn't lose an S rank because your team is behind and you carry them back in to it rather than surrendering. I've gotten enough S ranks to know that it was an S rank at that point (also, the fact that your damage scales better later in to the game, if I'm getting all of my deaths late game my damage is obviously not going to be as high as it was early in a relative sense).

Point is simply that it is possible to have an S rank and lose it because you choose to try to win rather than surrender. That shouldn't happen. You should never have incentive to lose a game on purpose. Even if it doesn't apply to THAT game, it definitely applies somewhere.

of course it is possible to lose it as the game goes on. If it were that easy to get an S rank then you might as well not have a ranking system at all. You lost, simple as that. Get better and learn to know when it's the best time to initiate. KDA isn't all that matters in the game, objectives, CS, KP, time itself all go into you achieving an S rank

ValyrianBlade1 votes

{quoted}

of course it is possible to lose it as the game goes on. If it were that easy to get an S rank then you might as well not have a ranking system at all. You lost, simple as that. Get better and learn to know when it's the best time to initiate. KDA isn't all that matters in the game, objectives, CS, KP, time itself all go into you achieving an S rank

You're entirely missing the point.

I completely understand other things are important. I'm not arguing my KDA was good so it deserved an S. Why is it that whenever you put something to use as an example, people read it out of context and try to defend the status quo?

All that I'm trying to say is that the following is possible and it shouldn't be:

  • You play an exceptionally good game up to this point, a game that will earn an S rank if you surrendered right now
  • Your team votes to surrender, and you vote against it because you think you can carry
  • You proceed to carry your team, but in doing so have to make sacrificial plays / plays against a fed opposition that results in you getting only an A+ at the end of the day

This should NOT be possible. It basically says "if you want the S, you should surrender instead of trying to carry". That's the very thing that Riot says should never happen. It's the very point YOU are trying to argue. Just KDA doesn't matter. Just CS doesn't matter. Just damage doesn't matter. It's the combination of all of these things and more that often lead together to a won game.

So at the end of the day, playing to win should NEVER cost you an S rank that you could have had if you surrendered. And yet it can, and it has.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

{quoted}

You're entirely missing the point.

I completely understand other things are important. I'm not arguing my KDA was good so it deserved an S. Why is it that whenever you put something to use as an example, people read it out of context and try to defend the status quo?

All that I'm trying to say is that the following is possible and it shouldn't be:

  • You play an exceptionally good game up to this point, a game that will earn an S rank if you surrendered right now
  • Your team votes to surrender, and you vote against it because you think you can carry
  • You proceed to carry your team, but in doing so have to make sacrificial plays / plays against a fed opposition that results in you getting only an A+ at the end of the day

This should NOT be possible. It basically says "if you want the S, you should surrender instead of trying to carry". That's the very thing that Riot says should never happen. It's the very point YOU are trying to argue. Just KDA doesn't matter. Just CS doesn't matter. Just damage doesn't matter. It's the combination of all of these things and more that often lead together to a won game.

So at the end of the day, playing to win should NEVER cost you an S rank that you could have had if you surrendered. And yet it can, and it has.

you are the one who is completely missing the point. Oh look i did incredibly well at some random point in the game... might as well not do anything but walk around in circles inside the base. I should still earn my S rank since i got it earlier in the game by doing incredibly well!

THERE IS NO POINT IN A RANKING SYSTEM THAT ONLY TAKES INTO CONSIDERATION A PORTION OF THE GAME INSTEAD OF THE WHOLE THING!

I could care less you had 10/0/0 by 10 the 10 min mark. If you ended with 11/13/5 then guess what? you don't deserve a S rank since you couldn't maintain that lvl of play you were showing at the start of the game. Once again, there are a multitude of things that are taken into consideration when earning an S rank and that CHANGES as time advances in the game. 6 wards placed by the 5 min mark might be awesome but 6 wards placed by the 50 min mark? it's not. 100 CS by the 12 min mark is great but 100 CS by the 30 min mark is terrible. 1 objective taken by the 5 min mark is awesome but 1 objective taken by the 40 min mark? nowhere near close.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

{quoted}

you are the one who is completely missing the point. Oh look i did incredibly well at some random point in the game... might as well not do anything but walk around in circles inside the base. I should still earn my S rank since i got it earlier in the game by doing incredibly well!

THERE IS NO POINT IN A RANKING SYSTEM THAT ONLY TAKES INTO CONSIDERATION A PORTION OF THE GAME INSTEAD OF THE WHOLE THING!

I could care less you had 10/0/0 by 10 the 10 min mark. If you ended with 11/13/5 then guess what? you don't deserve a S rank since you couldn't maintain that lvl of play you were showing at the start of the game. Once again, there are a multitude of things that are taken into consideration when earning an S rank and that CHANGES as time advances in the game. 6 wards placed by the 5 min mark might be awesome but 6 wards placed by the 50 min mark? it's not. 100 CS by the 12 min mark is great but 100 CS by the 30 min mark is terrible. 1 objective taken by the 5 min mark is awesome but 1 objective taken by the 40 min mark? nowhere near close.

My point (the one that you're missing) is that if a player can surrender and get an S rank, but could not surrender, win, and not get an S rank, it encourages playing suboptimally (i.e. surrendering and losing a game that can be won).

That should NOT be allowed.

To think otherwise is rather idiotic. Riot has said themselves many times that they do not want to encourage any play that deviates from focusing on winning the game, then releases a system that in a certain case can reward you for surrendering. I'm saying that shouldn't be possible. Extend it to the case that it only works if you could personally have voted surrender and ended the game right then if you want. I don't care how specific it has to be, the point remains: If I personally voted surrender instead of not surrender and would have received an S rank, that S rank is earned at that point in time. Why am I not allowed to try and continue to win and keep the S rank I already earned?

ValyrianBlade1 votes

{quoted}

you are the one who is completely missing the point. Oh look i did incredibly well at some random point in the game... might as well not do anything but walk around in circles inside the base. I should still earn my S rank since i got it earlier in the game by doing incredibly well!

THERE IS NO POINT IN A RANKING SYSTEM THAT ONLY TAKES INTO CONSIDERATION A PORTION OF THE GAME INSTEAD OF THE WHOLE THING!

I could care less you had 10/0/0 by 10 the 10 min mark. If you ended with 11/13/5 then guess what? you don't deserve a S rank since you couldn't maintain that lvl of play you were showing at the start of the game. Once again, there are a multitude of things that are taken into consideration when earning an S rank and that CHANGES as time advances in the game. 6 wards placed by the 5 min mark might be awesome but 6 wards placed by the 50 min mark? it's not. 100 CS by the 12 min mark is great but 100 CS by the 30 min mark is terrible. 1 objective taken by the 5 min mark is awesome but 1 objective taken by the 40 min mark? nowhere near close.

Just to be perfectly clear: Even if it wouldn't have happened, the thought crossed my mind that I should press surrender because I would get an S (and it's a rotating game mode so it doesn't affect my W-L or anything). And immediately I thought I needed to create this thread because that thought should NEVER cross anyone's mind. You should never choose to lose a winnable game for an in-game reward. You should never be rewarded (or equivalently, lose a reward for not) choosing to lose.

Mecha MaIphite1 votes

Because the point is to win, not to farm KDA and minions.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

{quoted}

Because the point is to win, not to farm KDA and minions.

AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I'M SAYING.

I'm saying that I know I have an S rank and my team votes to surrender and I can surrender and take my S.

But as you said, THE POINT IS TO WIN.

So I don't surrender. And I carry, or at least try to. And in doing so I initiate fights THAT MY TEAM WINS DESPITE BEING BEHIND but I die in the process. And those deaths cost my S rank (not just because of the deaths, but because I'm not around to take the turrets afterwards, or to CS afterwards, or to deal more damage to champions in the late game when you do the most damage, etc...).

So I should have just surrendered and took my S rank.

I should have lost.

When the point is to win.

Something is wrong here. THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I'M SAYING.

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