Can we please make a small adjustment to the Black Cleaver build path on PBE?

ValyrianBlade··92 votes·4,646 views

So the following change is on the PBE: Black Cleaver Health increased from 300 to 400 Attack damage lowered from 50 to 40 Build Path Changed from [Phage + Caulfields] to [Phage + Kindlegem] Total cost lowered from 3100 to 3050

The context is that it's working as intended on juggernauts like Garen and Darius, and historically they've benefited from the item having more HP and less AD than it does now. It's also getting purchased too much as a final item, combining too well with lethality builds on marksmen and assassins.

So I'm fine with the overall final spot of the item, but the build path is ATROCIOUS, especially for anyone that rushes it as a first item.

The major problem with the build path is that you only get 15 AD until you manage to finish the full item. 15 AD is not nearly enough for a lot of champions who want to build this item first. It makes CS'ing a lot harder. It makes pushing your lead a lot harder.

Then, on top of that, we have another issue. The final combine cost just increased from 750g to 1000g. That's a pretty significant bump. Prior to this change, no individual purchase on the Black Cleaver ever cost more than that 750g. (400+350->+500, 350+350->+400, -->+750). It was a really good first item purchase because regardless of how much gold you had to base on, you could add a component before going back to lane. I think it's an unintended consequence of the change that suddenly you'll have a lot of people being forced to back at 750-970g and can't finish the item (or otherwise they stay in lane too long and die because of the increased cost).

There's a really simple change to the build path that solves both of these problems with the item simultaneously, AND doesn't benefit the item at all as a 5th/6th item: Add a longsword to the build.

It's really that simple. It reduces the final combine cost from 1000 to 650. It lets you get 25AD rather than only 15 AD out of the build path, so you're not stuck without damage for so long. It still fits logically, as 25AD < 40AD on the finished item. It won't benefit people building it as a 5th/6th item as they won't have inventory space for the extra component anyways.

It's still a straight nerf to the offensive power of the item relative to current. Really, I see no reason not to allow item 3071 to build out of item 3044 item 3067 item 1036

66 Comments

Zero Skill Tank9 votes

Black Cleaver not being super-easy to rush anymore is a good thing.

ValyrianBlade17 votes

{quoted}

Black Cleaver not being super-easy to rush anymore is a good thing.

That's an opinion and it's fine.

The context behind the changes was, however, that they thought Black Cleaver was in an appropriate place for people building it as a first item. It needed to be nerfed for people building it late. So I don't see why making it harder to rush is a good thing in that context. It may be something you as a player prefer (and many other players may share that sentiment) but it wasn't at least the goal of this change.

Zero Skill Tank5 votes

There are champions who rush it and are not juggernauts, and it is kind of problematic on them as completing BC on a mobile champion is a powerspike strong enough to equalize 1-2 frags of lead.

Juggernauts have base stats strong enough to handle sitting on this kindlegem for a while. Jarvan, Riven or Fiora do not. Making it harder to rush is a good thing, in any context.

ValyrianBlade2 votes

{quoted}

There are champions who rush it and are not juggernauts, and it is kind of problematic on them as completing BC on a mobile champion is a powerspike strong enough to equalize 1-2 frags of lead.

Juggernauts have base stats strong enough to handle sitting on this kindlegem for a while. Jarvan, Riven or Fiora do not. Making it harder to rush is a good thing, in any context.

Riot isn't saying that Jarvan, Riven, or Fiora are out of line though. These are really the champions that are getting nerfed a lot by the change but really nerfs for them aren't warranted right now.

J4 and Fiora especially, both are meant to be tank-destroyers and yet tanks (Poppy Maokai Nautilus Shen) are the only top laners seeing pro play. Even in solo queue these tanks are really dominating the picks (with asides being like Jayce [who needs the late game black cleaver nerf] or like Darius [who as you mentioned have the base stats to be fine without it]). The champions that J4 and Fiora should be beating are the popular ones and yet they're not really strong right now. So a black cleaver change like this seems really bad in that context when such a simple change would make it closer to neutral for them.

Hinagiku331 votes

I'm worried that lowering the AD will make it a lot worse on Fiora than a so-so build path since it will mean even less damage scaling out of her passive.

Tiamat rush into Cleaver has been standard on Fiora for a while now since she can stack it decently quick and needs the armor shred to have any hope of fighting Juggernauts and Tanks. Unless they are bad at landing CC and let Fiora get off 3+ Vital procs or die stupidly and let Fiora snowball. The armor shred is still needed but I'm wondering if it will still be worth it with less AD and a cumbersome early build path.

I'd be tempted to try out a Lethality build on Fiora instead but Ghostblade is getting its Lethality reduced in the same patch...

Faceroll Tactics1 votes

Yep, it's sad that melee carries can only be viable for 2 patches and have all their builds needed because of ranged but tanks get to be viable for an entire year.

I hate jayce

SpecterVonBaren4 votes

No, they're nerfing it because EVERYONE USES IT. Assassins, juggernauts, fighters, marksmen, anyone and everyone that deals physical damage is building it because of it being such a general purpose item that also gives large utility to their whole team since it reduces an enemy's total armor.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fiora All Night,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E3wFAus4,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-02-12T23:05:33.679+0000)

I'm worried that lowering the AD will make it a lot worse on Fiora than a so-so build path since it will mean even less damage scaling out of her passive.

Tiamat rush into Cleaver has been standard on Fiora for a while now since she can stack it decently quick and needs the armor shred to have any hope of fighting Juggernauts and Tanks. Unless they are bad at landing CC and let Fiora get off 3+ Vital procs or die stupidly and let Fiora snowball. The armor shred is still needed but I'm wondering if it will still be worth it with less AD and a cumbersome early build path.

I'd be tempted to try out a Lethality build on Fiora instead but Ghostblade is getting its Lethality reduced in the same patch...

Don't get me wrong - I prefer black cleaver building out of Caulfields. It's pretty much beyond doubt that Riot is intent on changing it to a kindlegem though, which is going to hurt champions like Fiora a LOT. Adding a single longsword back to the build path (so it'd still be 10AD behind but at least have 2 longswords in the build path to offer some AD before getting up to 3K gold) would at least make it a less painful change.

MinaZer01 votes

the overall damage spike early will go down +25 AD and item 3071 loses only -10 AD so far with the iteration currently on PBE.. that isn't shit, if anything the CDR from item 3133 WOULD be missed but.. brightside is item 3067 is cheaper with same CDR

Melledoneus1 votes

The reason why tanks are getting so much play in top lane is because the team needs a tank and top lane is the only place for them now. I miss tank junglers being viable.

Jbels43 votes

{quoted}

Black Cleaver not being super-easy to rush anymore is a good thing.

Why? Juggernauts literally have to build it first or they can't do the damage they need to. This was supposed to be a nerf to champions who weren't supposed to be buying it, not a nerf to the champions that are.

Zero Skill Tank8 votes

It's fine on juggernauts, but it becomes really problematic when rushed on mobile champions like Fiora, Riven, Kled or Renekton, as no other item grants similar powerspike, and unlike juggs they can pick their trades freely.

Faceroll Tactics3 votes

Pick their trades freely? Every champion you mentioned has low hp pools and little range (besides renekton) all of them have to walk up in a line to trade with you, and renekton has to wait for his telegraphed fury bar to be up, riven has to wait until you're close enough to not lose too much damage just gap closing, Kled has to be mounted, and fiora has to have a clear vital position and be able to lunge for you had hit you or a minion. So no, they can't exactly pick their trades freely just because they're mobile.

LordGeovanni1 votes

Faceroll Tactics (NA)

  • about 2 hours ago

Pick their trades freely? Every champion you mentioned has low hp pools and little range (besides renekton) all of them have to walk up in a line to trade with you

when all of those champions literally face melee champions almost every lane phase and are only 2 melee minions away from you i dont think that is ever a problem. Renekton can fight with out his fury bar he gets a huge boost when he has it up though riven can lose as much damage as she want gap closeing as once she hits the knock up she can just run away if not dash away with a shield and even more than that with her and fiora they just farm and ignore you if you arent getting farm because you cant fight them

Erractic Eick5 votes

I understand the others, but isn't Renekton supposed to hit a massive powerspike with Black Cleaver, which then enables him to be a lane bully?

Veltox2 votes

Depends of matchup. Vs a Rumble for ex you might want to rush a item 3155.

Sona Ping3 votes

Yep.

Joek91001 votes

Renekton is a lane bully period, that's his role. He falls off late game because he has early game lane pressure and bully potential

Illâoi Evê Siôn7 votes

I think they wanted to avoid being able to buy a bunch of Long Swords at the start of the game that all then build into super incredible items (which makes me wonder about the Lethality items, but OK whatever).

Not that I'm against your idea, I just think that may be a reason why they wouldn't want to add a compromise like this.

Theorchero1 votes

{quoted}

I think they wanted to avoid being able to buy a bunch of Long Swords at the start of the game that all then build into super incredible items (which makes me wonder about the Lethality items, but OK whatever).

Not that I'm against your idea, I just think that may be a reason why they wouldn't want to add a compromise like this.

Riven

ßurst1 votes

I remember when they lower the cost of black cleaver, I specifically asked I think it was scarizard on their stream, but they said champs that are supposed to rush the item like riven and thats why they lowered combine cost, it was literally almost those words, not exact but they included rivens name.

MinaZer01 votes

champions likeFiora and Riven get it because of AD, but primarily its because of the CDR, item 3071 could have +20 AD and still be bought because CDR and passives

ValyrianBlade1 votes

{quoted}

I think they wanted to avoid being able to buy a bunch of Long Swords at the start of the game that all then build into super incredible items (which makes me wonder about the Lethality items, but OK whatever).

Not that I'm against your idea, I just think that may be a reason why they wouldn't want to add a compromise like this.

It would only be 2 Longswords in the build though. That's not a bunch. If you're going to get Tiamat anyways that's 2 there alone, so it would be changing 3 to 4. That's more a problem with Tiamat than Black Cleaver though...

Leonerdo6 votes

Wow an actually well-thought out suggestion (that accomplishes specific goals without negatively affecting other parts of the game) on the Gameplay Boards. If only I could take all those upvotes I've been holding on to and give them all to you.

Cosmic Warper4 votes

I agree. 15 ad to 40 ad from item recipe to finish is idiotic. No item gives as big of a discrepancy of stats between recipe and finished item like cleaver does.

The Lost Marbles5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cosmic Warper,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E3wFAus4,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-02-12T18:17:48.167+0000)

I agree. 15 ad to 40 ad from item recipe to finish is idiotic. No item gives as big of a discrepancy of stats between recipe and finished item like cleaver does.

Nashor's goes from the 30 AP from Codex to 80 on the completed item, the same ratio (3:8) as reverted Cleaver.

Cosmic Warper2 votes

{quoted}

Nashor's goes from the 30 AP from Codex to 80 on the completed item, the same ratio (3:8) as reverted Cleaver.

oh the that's also dumb lol

Critmaster Garen4 votes

{quoted}

So I&#039;m fine with the overall final spot of the item, but the build path is ATROCIOUS, especially for anyone that rushes it as a first item.

only for bonus ad scaling champs with low base ad/base ad per level scaling. but thats the entire point of the change.

the bruisers who are supposed to pick it up usually have high base damage and high level scaling base ad. the impact for them will be a lot smaller than on adc and skirmishers like riven.

last hitting on low ad items isnt as much of a problem on Darius and Garen as it would be on skirmishers, adc and assassins. if youre playing these guys, then youll know that csing is often already fine with a phage.

the entire reason the build path changes, is to favour bruisers.

Tychusfindlay9191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E3wFAus4,comment-id=0011,timestamp=2017-02-13T06:41:13.027+0000)

only for bonus ad scaling champs with low base ad/base ad per level scaling. but thats the entire point of the change.

the bruisers who are supposed to pick it up usually have high base damage and high level scaling base ad. the impact for them will be a lot smaller than on adc and skirmishers like riven.

last hitting on low ad items isnt as much of a problem on Darius and Garen as it would be on skirmishers, adc and assassins. if youre playing these guys, then youll know that csing is often already fine with a phage.

the entire reason the build path changes, is to favour bruisers.

Although it is worth noting that noxian guillotine and hemorrhage only have bonus AD scaling.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Although it is worth noting that noxian guillotine and hemorrhage only have bonus AD scaling.

i think thats mainly because of his passive steroid and to make his strength more pronounced when he hits 5 stacks.

if this was to hit darius early game too hard, they could just revert the nerf to his passive steroid at early levels. though on the other hand, the higher health build gives him more healing on his q. so imo it evens out for him.

thats the idea. make cleaver and its build path equally strong on fighters as it is now, and make it much worse on everybody else.

HongChongDong4 votes

They're trying prevent top lane damage oriented champions from being able to build pure damage then transfer that item into a free tank buster with CDR, defensive stats, and utility. Adding in an extra long sword defeats that purpose. And when I say "damage oriented" I'm referring to champions like Riven, Fiora, Kled, camille ect. Them being able to build this item with no drawbacks anywhere is not a good thing and definitely not healthy.

Spoofghoul3 votes

I can see your point though i like the current build path without long sword too

the thing is it still is good to buy for its intended users even thought he build path got more shitty

im fine with riven and fiora not wanting to rush this item anymore tbh

Hinagiku332 votes

Tough luck then, because Riven and Fiora still need it. It's a rush item for a reason. It'll suck for us to rush it but you may change your tune when you go up against a Riven with even more Health after she picks up her early Cleaver.

Faceroll Tactics1 votes

100 more hp traded for 10 ad might actually drop her survivability because her shield scales off ad, I'll have to test that and see how long of a fight it'll have to be for that to matter once the practice tool comes out for everyone zzz

iPooUnicorns1 votes

It won't. 100 total HP > 10 Hp on a 1 second shield

Faceroll Tactics1 votes

Yes, it'll make her better in short trades but if I passed high school math I could find out how long the fight would have to be for the shield to lose over 100 points due to the minus 10 ad (approx 9 shield points [infernal dragon too])

It's a buff to short fights for sure though.

Just thought it through, any fight lasting longer than 44 seconds will be a nerf to her survivability assuming she has 40% cdr. So looks like a survivability buff except for extreme cases

SpecterVonBaren3 votes

No they don't.... And so what if she has more health? She's not dealing damage so she can't snowball as easily.

SpecterVonBaren2 votes

I'm pretty sure it's fully intended that the build path isn't braindead easy for every single AD champ in the game to build it and still deal tons of damage early. There should be a trade off for building such a cost efficient item that is relevant all game and that can be built by everyone.

Tychusfindlay9192 votes

I don't like this idea because the whole point of reverting cleaver is to make it so that light skirmishers can't just sit on a bunch of longswords, and adding a longsword on its own to the build path partially defeats the purpose of this intended change.

ValyrianBlade2 votes

{quoted}

I don't like this idea because the whole point of reverting cleaver is to make it so that light skirmishers can't just sit on a bunch of longswords, and adding a longsword on its own to the build path partially defeats the purpose of this intended change.

Except that wasn't the purpose of this change.

Riot explicitly stated in their context that the purpose of the change was because Black Cleaver was the most commonly built FINAL ITEM (i.e. 6th item in a build) of all items in league by a large margin. And that it was champions like Jayce + Assassins who were using it as part of a full lethality with a last-whisper item build that was considered OP.

They also explicitly stated that they thought BC was in a healthy state for the juggernauts who rush it first item.

They mentioned nothing about longsword stacking and really, adding a longsword to their new build path is still a longsword short of what it was before (so it would still be 10 less AD in the build path).

SaltyKracka2 votes
Tychusfindlay9191 votes

{quoted}

Except that wasn't the purpose of this change.

Riot explicitly stated in their context that the purpose of the change was because Black Cleaver was the most commonly built FINAL ITEM (i.e. 6th item in a build) of all items in league by a large margin. And that it was champions like Jayce + Assassins who were using it as part of a full lethality with a last-whisper item build that was considered OP.

They also explicitly stated that they thought BC was in a healthy state for the juggernauts who rush it first item.

They mentioned nothing about longsword stacking and really, adding a longsword to their new build path is still a longsword short of what it was before (so it would still be 10 less AD in the build path).

SaltyKracka is right, by final item they meant non-component item, not the 6th item in a champion's build. It's like you have no "street smarts" because anyone in their right mind knows cleaver rush is the go-to for anything outside of a tank in top lane.

five oh tree 2 votes

A well written post that presents a problem and a reasonable solution to the problem. You are a god among mortals. +1.

Troll for Trump1 votes

Well, juggernauts still have a certain amount of dmg they need to deal.

It depends on which aspect of the juggernaut you're more into. Doing damage while being tanky, or being tanky while doing damage. See the difference? You favor the latter, but others might prefer the former. Black cleaver is basically the only good juggernaut offensive item. The other one, Sterak's, has been nerfed a lot. IBG and Sunfire cape have been knocked out after the tank ekko meta. Maw is probably the next best thing, although that has also received some considerable nerfs in the past.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

{quoted}

Well, juggernauts still have a certain amount of dmg they need to deal.

It depends on which aspect of the juggernaut you're more into. Doing damage while being tanky, or being tanky while doing damage. See the difference? You favor the latter, but others might prefer the former. Black cleaver is basically the only good juggernaut offensive item. The other one, Sterak's, has been nerfed a lot. IBG and Sunfire cape have been knocked out after the tank ekko meta. Maw is probably the next best thing, although that has also received some considerable nerfs in the past.

Oh no, I prefer the former.

I think you're under the impression I'm asking for the change in build to kindlegem. I'm not. It's happening though - so before it happens I'd like a Longsword added because I think it's rocking the pendulum too hard from damage to tankiness. There needs to still be some damage in the build path. Dropping it from a 35 damage buildpath to a 15 damage buildpath is atrocious. 15 to 40 AD in the combine - that's ridiculous. 25AD in the build path (halfway between the current 35 and Riot's sought 15) would be a lot easier to handle for the juggernauts who want some damage early.

Erockandroll2 votes

{quoted}

Oh no, I prefer the former.

I think you're under the impression I'm asking for the change in build to kindlegem. I'm not. It's happening though - so before it happens I'd like a Longsword added because I think it's rocking the pendulum too hard from damage to tankiness. There needs to still be some damage in the build path. Dropping it from a 35 damage buildpath to a 15 damage buildpath is atrocious. 15 to 40 AD in the combine - that's ridiculous. 25AD in the build path (halfway between the current 35 and Riot's sought 15) would be a lot easier to handle for the juggernauts who want some damage early.

Honestly, BC already had the exact same build path in a previous iteration, with similar stats, pretty much when the Juggernaut rework happened. Do you know why it was changed to its current iteration? Because it was OP on JUGGERNAUTS. Because of the HP scaling on most Juggernauts, when they rushed BC, the boost in HP made them Harder to shut down early. And the fact that most fighters require at least one damage item early, acts as a balancing lever where Fighters could be bullied earlier in the game. But BC allowed Juggernauts a lot of HP early, and it was still their only damage item.

Juggernauts are going to be Just fine with the current changes. It's the glass cannons who are getting their builds screwed with.

Troll for Trump3 votes

It's the glass cannons who are getting their builds screwed with.

Who shouldn't be building cleaver in the first place(ADCs). Assassins won't super screwed by it because they don't get it super early. Urgot gets a little boned from this since he needs as much AD as he can get early to help farm, but he wasn't really in consideration to begin with

Juggernauts are in a pretty poor spot, with the exclusion of Darius, who has been dropping in win rate steadily even BEFORE his nerfs.

DepressedAhri1 votes

Honestly, I think this was a well-needed nerf to Juggernaugts as a whole. They get an early lead, and they push it -too- well. The decrease in AD early helps to balance this out, but will also make the power spike feel better when you do finish the item.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

Honestly, I think this was a well-needed nerf to Juggernaugts as a whole.

i dont think you understand what this change is supposed to accomplish.

for bruisers, the build path is better with health stacking, than it is for squishier champion types who buy the item. the loss of 10 ad for 100 health is a tradeoff that makes the item about equal in effectiveness on juggs as the 10 ad would.

you need to know, that juggernauts have the higest base ad/lvl scaling in the game. while squishier asassins and adc have very low base ad in general.

on top of that, these champions abilities often scale with high bonus ad ratios, while juggernauts abilities scale with total ad (which means base ad + bonus ad). a juggernaut who builds cleaver out of kindlegem will still be able to cs well, and deal decent damage, while an adc or someone like riven for example will feel like shit.

this means skirmishers, asssassins and adc lose a shitton of early power by not being able to stack longswords into cleaver. while juggernauts scale well with health and lose nothing.

they literally said theyre changing cleavers recipe because juggernauts feel better about the kindlegem, than assassins, skirmishers and adc who feel worse about the build path.

DarkPh0enix1 votes

Juggernauts have no mobility but in exchange they can fight everyone if they get close. They are actually weak if you ask me.

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