Why isn't there a dragon that boosts defensive stats?

ValyrianBlade·Jan 19, 2017·73 votes·11,999 views

Just curious.

We have infernal that is purely offense and lends way too much to the excess levels of damage in the game right now.

We have mountain that is even better offense against objectives only.

We have ocean that is both, health Regen is probably defensive but mana Regen is offensive most of the time.

Likewise cloud is technically both.

Why isn't there a dragon that reduces damage taken by 5%, or amplifies armour/mr by 8% or something? Or why doesn't mountain do this, it fits better thematically and infernal will still help with objectives.

If it's because tanks are perceived as too strong for whatever reason, it could always be balanced as X+Y% armour/mr (i.e. shift some of the stats to flat so it benefits squishies more)...

107 Comments

RiotMeddlerJan 20, 201730 votes

We spent a while kicking around ideas for defensive focused dragon buffs. Main problems we kept running into were difficulty making one that didn't overlap with Infernal in terms of strategy supported (direct champion conflict) and the risk of pushing tankiness for many champs past some critical points (tankiness often being harder to respond to than higher damage, given CC and kill's a response to damage at least).

Not opposed to a dragon buff that offers something directly defensive in theory and it's something we'd look into again if considering adding additional dragon buffs. That's something we're interested in investigating someday, though would want to make sure we were adding another buff because it promoted interesting gameplay and was meaningfully different to the existing ones, not just because it had a cool theme.

Overlord ForteJan 20, 20179 votes

Might be worth spitballing something for the Rift Herald at a team level if it's current iteration is found to be undesirable?

I dunno, something like 'a team with a dragon buff does not receive Rift Herald bonuses', and then the Herald gets defensive team bonuses. So the 'winning' (dragon positive) team has to keep an eye out, but not just clean sweep the map and snowball their advantage necessarily.

RiotMeddlerJan 20, 201716 votes

It's safe to say we don't think Rift Herald's hitting the mark in its current form yeah. It's not really causing problems, but it's not offering much either alas. Suspect we're more likely to do work on RH before looking at possible alternate dragon types too.

In terms of making it specifically a 'you didn't get dragons' benefit we tend to be pretty cautious about those sort of mechanics because they can lead to low interaction objective trade situations (they take A, we take B instead of contesting A). That can lead to dull games. Wouldn't be so bad in the version you propose given dragon's assumedly clearly better, especially as the game goes on. Would be inclined to start by looking at things that make RH really exciting in its own right when looking at it though, then look at fallback effects like that later if nothing that stands on its own more could be found.

Critmaster GarenJan 20, 20175 votes

{quoted}

It's safe to say we don't think Rift Herald's hitting the mark in its current form yeah. It's not really causing problems, but it's not offering much either alas. Suspect we're more likely to do work on RH before looking at possible alternate dragon types too.

In terms of making it specifically a 'you didn't get dragons' benefit we tend to be pretty cautious about those sort of mechanics because they can lead to low interaction objective trade situations (they take A, we take B instead of contesting A). That can lead to dull games. Wouldn't be so bad in the version you propose given dragon's assumedly clearly better, especially as the game goes on. Would be inclined to start by looking at things that make RH really exciting in its own right when looking at it though, then look at fallback effects like that later if nothing that stands on its own more could be found.

well. i guess if lux skin is any indicaton, there is plenty of room for more elements on the dragons.

WyrmbladeJan 20, 201724 votes

I'd recommend removing the cheese protection on rift herald. It feels so hard to take unless you have three people and the enemy mid jungle and top are dead. The cheese protection is weird as hell because it prevents you from playing with the buff's gimmick.

Sahn UzalJan 20, 20173 votes

What if there was a Second Dragon in Baron pit untill Baron spawns?

JoseraphJan 20, 201711 votes

they can lead to low interaction objective trade situations (they take A, we take B instead of contesting A)

QuixaphidJan 22, 20171 votes

If you want people to take rift herald it needs to drop two buffs. It needs two people to take so it needs to drop two buffs

RiotMeddlerJan 22, 20172 votes

We don't have a direction for changes yet, I think it's highly likely whatever we do will include benefit for more than one person (multiple buffs dropped, something that offers team utility or some other solution).

LankPantsJan 23, 20172 votes

What about a sort of stall buff? Something that could help a more late game team stay in the game a bit but that offers few bonuses to a team that wants to aggressively close the game? The game feels like it snowballs out of control at insane speeds right now, the last thing we need is another strong offensive buff.

Something like 'for the next 10? minutes your towers gain bonus resists and grant bonus resists to nearby champions'. A buff like this would not benefit an aggressor much but would allow a late game team to scale without just getting shit on by the insane early pressure in the game. Even if the more early game team takes this to deny it it still gives options for a late game team to do something and options are something that late game comps are seriously lacking right now.

RogueWillJan 23, 20171 votes

I think changing it to something similar to old drake woudl be a good step for RH (make him give bonus gold). You take Dragons if you want scaling benefits, you go for RH if you want immediate benefits.

EROTIC RAID BOSSJan 20, 20172 votes

Ever thought about water dragons giving a small overshield at max hp? Kinda like bloodthirster except you cant get it back once you're in a fight. Might add some value to multiple water dragons, if the shield size went from like 2 to 4 to 6% max hp

HollowMimicJan 20, 20172 votes

Maybe then you can make it based on lvl, just like u did with Lethality.

Or another idea that could actually promote the tankiness when needed, is to make it work with KDA ratio. I'm surprised that negative KDA ratio is not used for an item or an objective buff.

TwitchInMyPantsJan 20, 20172 votes

{quoted}

We spent a while kicking around ideas for defensive focused dragon buffs. Main problems we kept running into were difficulty making one that didn't overlap with Infernal in terms of strategy supported (direct champion conflict) and the risk of pushing tankiness for many champs past some critical points (tankiness often being harder to respond to than higher damage, given CC and kill's a response to damage at least).

Not opposed to a dragon buff that offers something directly defensive in theory and it's something we'd look into again if considering adding additional dragon buffs. That's something we're interested in investigating someday, though would want to make sure we were adding another buff because it promoted interesting gameplay and was meaningfully different to the existing ones, not just because it had a cool theme.

Have you looked at the possibility of adding max hp? HP keeps squishies alive longer tho isn't typically itemized until late, tanks prioritize armor/mr more but health stacks well with it. It also has damage potential with hydra while having lots of % hp counterplay available. There's a lot of individual kits where armor/mr scaling results in them being oppressive in some matchups but HP based characters seem to always be the easiest to tune into balance.

theArtifactsJan 20, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Not opposed to a dragon buff that offers something directly defensive in theory and it's something we'd look into again if considering adding additional dragon buffs.

A dragon that buffs turrets perhaps? Gives turrets health regen? Decreases inhibitor respawn time?

ADC5LUTJan 20, 20172 votes

{quoted}

We spent a while kicking around ideas for defensive focused dragon buffs. Main problems we kept running into were difficulty making one that didn't overlap with Infernal in terms of strategy supported (direct champion conflict) and the risk of pushing tankiness for many champs past some critical points (tankiness often being harder to respond to than higher damage, given CC and kill's a response to damage at least).

Not opposed to a dragon buff that offers something directly defensive in theory and it's something we'd look into again if considering adding additional dragon buffs. That's something we're interested in investigating someday, though would want to make sure we were adding another buff because it promoted interesting gameplay and was meaningfully different to the existing ones, not just because it had a cool theme.

Arcane Drake

After 5 seconds of being damaged by an enemy champion you will gain a shield that makes you immune to all damage for 1/2/3 seconds. 70 second out of combat cd.

RalanrJan 20, 20172 votes

...

This would do exactly opposite of what they hope to solve in the midseason.

ADC5LUTJan 20, 20171 votes

im amazed you know what they hope to solve

RalanrJan 20, 20174 votes

http://nexus.leagueoflegends.com/2017/01/dev-on-state-of-the-game-january-2017/

"We’ll be doing some work on defensive items Mid-Season, in part looking to improve long running problems with defensive items being too effective on some champs who aren’t healthy when really tanky (e.g. tank Fizz and tank Ekko). We’ll also be looking at how itemization makes tanks tanky, with the feeling being at present that they may end up being too resistant to sustained physical damage and too vulnerable to sustained magic damage."

Eyup.

Baron PerenoldeJan 21, 20171 votes

A little while ago, a forumer suggested showing the dragon's spawn order in pick/ban phase so that teams can try to build around them instead of relying on their current boring, rng impact. What are your thoughts on this?

RalanrJan 19, 201722 votes

It'd probably be too difficult to balance because it would somewhat negate the intended weakness of squishy high damage champions.

ErockandrollJan 19, 20174 votes

{quoted}

It'd probably be too difficult to balance because it would somewhat negate the intended weakness of squishy high damage champions.

It's probably a lot easier to shut down a champ who has more offensive power than defensive power. And in a game that is already prone to snowballing, you don't want to make one side, a lot harder to shut down.

KoKobotoJan 20, 20174 votes

Lmfao what if we started with defensive drakes and people asked why don't we have offensive drakes?

"It'd probably be too difficult to balance because it would somewhat negate the intended damageness of tanky low damage champions."

serenity7Jan 19, 20179 votes

Because offensive stats, as well as the damage to objectives and movement speed are all things that help a team that is ahead keep snowballing, and therefore end the game sooner. Riot is favoring this early game snowbally meta. A defensive dragon would make games longer and help teams that are behind. Which now that I think about would solve a lot of league's problems right now. Adding a defensive dragon would be great.

Raven RedeemedJan 20, 20174 votes

That was my thinking. They probably want to give winning teams new tools to win with. The ocean drake is pretty defensive in nature and seems pretty balanced. It would be cool to see a new defensive drake.

ItsOrvalJan 20, 20177 votes

Imagine a fed ADC with 24% increased defenses, thats why.

Faceroll TacticsJan 20, 20173 votes

Imagine poppy who double dips in bonus tank stats already.

Oh my god that sounds awful. I don't want to imagine it.

deadlychuckJan 20, 20177 votes

Because riot would rather give everyone cannons than castles.

PennsJan 19, 20176 votes

Idk, that would be pretty cancerous imo, kinda like Sota lol. It made carry junglers like Nida and Graves tanky for no reason. Infernal doesnt really do the opposite with tanks.

AhristocatsJan 19, 201712 votes

graves was tanky because of the numbers on his E nidalee was tanky because of her itemization not because of +300 hp

if you give a dragon with defensive stats, jhin won't suddenly be tanky

RalanrJan 19, 20176 votes

He'll be more durable than expected though. Which is a problem that PD has right now.

Spice POWAHJan 20, 20178 votes

maybe make it, like +whatever% bonus armor/mr or something per dragon.

Surfer AsheJan 20, 20172 votes

Then what? Only up to two champs per game get any value from it?

Spice POWAHJan 20, 20173 votes

I dunno, just throwing around ideas. maybe "or +7 bonus armor, whichever is higher"

SpoofghoulJan 19, 20176 votes

Maybe defensive stats should be a rift herald thing

replace the current split push buff with team wide defensive stats and make herald spawn 3 times to make it more like dragon

Might take some of the early game bot lane emphasis away

Denims Wrath666Jan 20, 20176 votes

AHA after careful consideration and eons of meditation, ive come to the conclusion that there should be a "shield drake". it works like any of the charged items and passives, and the scaling could be like 50/100/150 shields. its not huge but it can be the funny moments. and to make it a bit more balanced, make it so you cant charge while there are enemies around (so there isn't those super clutch early level shield dragons pissing off botlane).

tldr; a wimpy malphite passive dragon?

MelledoneusJan 20, 20171 votes

Or a drake that amplifies shields?

The Taco KatJan 21, 20171 votes

It would make team comps with low shield power be fairly weak without outside sources such as Locket.

I have to admit though, a "grey health" dragon sounds like a neat idea to toy around with. The mention of shields sparked it in my mind, though I'm not sure how effective it would be outside of poke comps.

dominusxJan 19, 20175 votes

because this is league of dmg creep eveyrthing needs to boost dmg even if it is meant to be defencive

SzGamer227Jan 20, 20172 votes

as someone who really wants to see Grasp of the Undying in a good spot this physically hurts to read

QuephaJan 20, 20174 votes

I don't think Riot thinks of the dragons as "Damage dragon, tower damage dragon, speed dragon, and regen dragon" but actually thinks of them in terms of strategic significance aka "Combat dragon, objective pressure dragon, skirmish dragon, siege dragon."

"Defense dragon" strategically falls under the category of "Combat dragon," as you want it when you plan to fight the enemy which is occupying the same strategic space as Infernal. It would seem weird to have two dragons devoted to the same strategic niche and the possibility of one team getting an Infernal and another getting the "Defense dragon" so everything is pretty much a net neutral seems like an interesting mechanic was resolved in a really boring fashion. It seems like the game only has room for either the Infernal drake or the "Defense dragon."

If the developers have to choose one then damage is generally more exciting to players and also encourages games to progress and close out faster rather than slow down and stall because you did something you're supposed to want to do (imagine a game where both teams get multiple "Defense dragons" with no Infernals and have huge damage reduction against each other, just standing around slapping each other in mid lane, wishing the game would just end).

ZT XperimentorJan 20, 20172 votes

You know what's also exciting? Surviving fights.

QuephaJan 20, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=ZT Xperimentor,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rWvedmIi,comment-id=00120000,timestamp=2017-01-20T15:06:52.853+0000)

You know what's also exciting? Surviving fights.

Only when someone else in the fight died. Killing them faster than they killed you is practically the same thing as living longer than them.

ZT XperimentorJan 20, 20172 votes

Not necessarily, it's called escaping.

Meep ManJan 19, 20173 votes

Because killing Infernal also indirectly boosts your defensive stats by not allowing the enemy team to deal increased damage. It's loose, but that's what I got. Kind of like how, if there was a defensive dragon, you would be boosting your own damage by denying the enemy team bonus defenses.

ValyrianBladeJan 19, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Because killing Infernal also indirectly boosts your defensive stats by not allowing the enemy team to deal increased damage. It's loose, but that's what I got. Kind of like how, if there was a defensive dragon, you would be boosting your own damage by denying the enemy team bonus defenses.

Do you think it's at all possible that 0 tank teams are becoming more prevalent because there's a chance that infernal spawns which doesn't help if they get it and hurts if the enemy gets it, but there's no equivalent for the top/jg/supp squishies (i.e. a % defensive dragon that would not benefit them much / at all, while making it much harder for them to outscale their counterpart)?

I think part of why Jayce is so strong (and shows up so much in pro play) is because a few infernal/mountains pop up and he becomes a monster splitpusher, but there's nothing that will suddenly make maokai just ignore all his poke (although ocean goes in that direction, Jayce can keep maokai in combat - i hope you understand what I'm going for though).

Meep ManJan 19, 20174 votes

Not really since 0 Tank teams suck and are basically a huge gamble that comes down to basic skill checks on the enemy team.

6SfoolJan 20, 20172 votes

Because only the tank will want it, and everyone with any real damage will refuse to help.

Gene FreakzJan 20, 20172 votes

Because Rito wants fights to be over in 3 seconds

PhantomGGJan 19, 20171 votes

I mean blue and white/silver are kinda defensive. But I get what you're saying, i'm guessing it's because riot wanted to keep the RNG of which dragons you get a 25 percent ratio instead of a weird 5 dragon ratio.